by Cora Dean
This essay, Heart of Apathy: Talking to Climate Deniers, is Part 1.
Update — Spark of Hope: Waking Up to Climate Reality is Part 2, in which Chris contacts me again and starts sending me links about sustainable technology. Turns out this story has a happy ending after all! Follow the link if you’ve already read the essay on this page.
Like most people in the world, I understand the basics of Global Warming. Growing up in China in the 1980’s and 90’s, I saw firsthand the devastating effect of water and air pollution as the country quickly went through hyper industrialization. Pollution was not something that affected other people, in other places — a few years after moving to Montreal I came back to visit the island I had grown up on, only to find the beaches strewn with garbage and no longer swimable because of nearby chemical plants that dumped their waste directly into the water. I understand what Greenhouse Gases are, and I know the world is getting warmer and more polluted all the time. I understand we need to take action immediately in order to avoid environmental catastrophe.
What I don’t understand is climate change deniers. My friends and the people I surround myself with have enough of a basic grasp of science to understand the importance of the Paris Climate Agreement as an international starting point, and to be horrified by Trump’s effort to pull us out of it. Obviously there is more at work in his decision than pure denial —this is an obvious case of corruption. He has personal investments in and relationships with companies that profit from the defunding of the EPA and the destruction of environmental regulations.
Most people I know are #impeach. I don’t feel the need to befriend people who think I don’t have the right to breathe clean air and drink clean water, let alone people who think some of the people I love don’t deserve to live in America because of their race, religion, or nationality. However, I do have a window into right wing extremism and climate denial in America through some of my relatives on one side of my family. Many of them are, simply put, bigots. Disgusted by experiences like hearing them defend the KKK during my childhood visits, I haven’t seen much of them over the course of my adult life, and have been forced to block many of them on social media because of racist language or direct attacks on me and my family. After the 2011 Norway attack on the Workers Youth League summer camp, where 77 teenagers and adults were killed and 209 injured, a second cousin posted on my wall that Anders Breivik should machine gun down all people who espoused left wing beliefs like mine, even “cherubic, blue eyed, golden haired ones.” See, she’s not racist. Just a complete monster.
Some of my relatives are evangelical Christians. They display pathological homophobia and religious intolerance in the form of islamophobia and antisemitism. And they do not believe in science. One relative tried to home school her young children so they wouldn’t be exposed to concepts like evolution. This backfired when her eldest son grew up to be a genius computer whiz and engineer, and eventually decided that he preferred to be an Atheist. He was mercilessly attacked by my family members, and I know of at least one time when one of my uncles physically beat him. We lost him to suicide — there were a variety of difficulties in his life, so I don’t entirely blame the treatment he received from my family on his death, but I also know he would have benefited from a more supportive, tolerant environment.
Over the years, the person in that family that I have stayed in closest touch with is his younger brother. I felt concerned about him after the tragedy, and worried that he was not receiving proper treatment when the family insisted that he didn’t need to see a therapist to deal with his grief, and instead sent him to a religious camp. Over the years I have tried to reach out to him to let him know that I support him, and that he can talk to me if he needs to. I encouraged him to apply to university, and helped him with his college applications. During the past few years we haven’t been in very close touch, but we talk occasionally and have remained friends on Facebook. When Trump came onto the scene, I felt like I was watching a child I had cared about for many years get swept up in the Hitler youth. He began to post racist and homophobic memes, calling for forced electroshock conversion therapy for LGBTQ people, a form of torture. Anyone who disagreed with him was labeled a communist. He joined and frequently reposted from a group called “God Lord Emperor Trump.” In a conversation I tried to have with him about the rise of anti-semitic neo-nazi and KKK support for Trump, he told me he didn’t understand why people criticized the Nazis so much because Communists were worse.
As the situation worsened, I considered blocking him, as I had done with so many of my other cousins. I couldn’t do it — maybe it was memories of helping to teach him how to walk as a baby and watching him learn how to talk and swim. Maybe it was because I felt like the one thing I could do for my cousin who passed away was to keep an eye on his brother. So I didn’t block him. I didn’t talk to him as much, but I couldn’t shut down the last little bit of hope I had for him. Occasionally he posted things like Ayn Rand quotes on my wall, and I would point out to him that Rand spent the last years of her life collecting social security and medicaid after describing participants in those programs as parasites throughout her career.
Things came to a head yesterday, when Trump announced that he was attempting to pull the US out of the Paris Climate Accord. He responded to a post that I made criticizing the decision with a shoddy “global warming is fake and not caused by humans” video. This prompted a lengthy conversation over social media, which lasted for hours (the longest conversation we have had in a few years). I will share our discussion with you here, hoping to help shed some light on how climate deniers, specifically those coming out of right wing religious backgrounds, perceive the issues around climate change.
It finally clicked into place for me: an understanding of the nihilist principles that Trump and Pence’s power base rests on. Obviously they rode in on a cloud of racist, anti-immigrant hate mongering, but they have also tapped into the rise of religious fanaticism in the United States. The disturbing realization I had is that my cousin, and so many of the other people who voted for Trump, believe that nothing humans do to fight back against climate change matters, because the apocalypse could happen any day. There is no point in fixing pollution because the world is going to end anyway, so why bother? They believe that it’s better for industry to have unfettered access to financial growth than to prevent toxic waste spills, because we’re all going to die, possibly soon.
This laissez-faire, counterproductive attitude is indicative of a culture where people spend all their free time watching reality tv and eating microwave dinners, not engaging in critical thought about their own role and responsibilities in the society they live in. However, we need to find a new way to communicate with these people. The elections in 2018 and 2020 are more crucial now than ever — “the earliest President Trump could give written notice of withdrawal would be November 4, 2019. That withdrawal wouldn’t take effect until one year later, on November 4, 2020, exactly one day after the next presidential election, potentially making the next election a referendum on climate change and the Paris Accord.” (Suzanne Dhaliwal). My hope is that by reading my conversation with my cousin, you will get some ideas about how these people think and how best to approach them when the time comes to get out the vote. We need to understand the right wing extremism that has infected the United States and break it down— the stakes could not be higher.
Here is (an edited) version of the conversation we had. I was able to draw on the extraordinary resources provided by posts in a private March for Science Facebook group for many of the links I shared with him.
https://www.facebook.com/marchforscience/
Follow links to articles and videos, some of the images are screenshots.
My original post:
The last time I saw my oldest friend, who lives in China, she couldn’t stop coughing. She doesn’t smoke, lives a very healthy lifestyle, and is around the same age as me. The reason she was coughing was because her lungs have been damaged by the low quality of the air in the city she lives in. You don’t have to be a scientist to understand that when you pump toxins, oil residue, and coal smoke into the air it has a negative effect on the quality of the environment. To claim there’s nothing humans can do to push back against pollution is despicably lazy. When I hear people who call themselves Christian (and yet don’t believe in feeding the poor or helping the sick) say that their God will take care of the environment and climate change, I am struck by the fact that they seem to have forgotten a key tenent of their own religion: that God gave humans free will. As the air and the water gets dirtier and you do nothing to stop it, you are exercising your free will to cause harm to others. It naturally follows that you will go to hell (godspeed). Those others who you harm include me and my friends. I don’t stand for it when people threaten to hurt my friends. With this decision to turn their back on literally the entire world except 2 countries, Trump and his low life cronies have demonstrated a desire to wage chemical warfare on America and the rest of the world, harming billions of people. I only hope that other countries do not sit by silently and allow one corrupt egomaniac and a gang of idiots to destroy us. There should be trade sanctions against the United States. Countries around the world should desist from doing business with Trump, his affiliates, and American companies that do not meet the standards set in the Paris Climate Agreement.
The conversation:
Hello Chris, I hope you and the rest of the family are doing well! I am writing to you today because I need to let you know that I have been very disturbed by some of the things I have seen you post, and what you posted on my wall. I want you to know that I’m not angry at you, at all. But I am opening up communication with you because I think that you have the capacity to understand that you have been lied to. While I am not angry at you, I am angry at the people who have lied to you since your childhood, who have tried (I hope unsuccessfully because I know you are not stupid) to teach you to be suspicious and afraid of people who have different beliefs or cultures than you. I am angry at the people who have tried to convince you that there is nothing you can do to positively effect the lives of other people and the world you live in. I know you are capable of doing good for yourself and others, and understanding what I am about to tell you, or I would not bother reaching out to you.
The concept of climate change is very scary, and I can see why you would prefer to listen to people who tell you there’s nothing to worry about. But that is the coward’s way out, to only believe in what makes you feel like everything’s going ok if you do nothing. You can believe that everything is going to be ok if you close your eyes as your car goes over a cliff, but that doesn’t make it true. The reality is that 97% of scientists agree that climate change is caused by humans, and that if we do not take immediate action on a national and global scale the results will be catastrophic. Unfortunately, the people who want you to think this fact is a scam, including Trump, are lying to you in order to make more money for themselves, at great cost to you and me, America and the rest of the world… purely out of greed. Maybe you are ok with that, because you believe that people should make money and support themselves, but I know you know what morals are. I know you know that it is immoral to steal, or to lie to someone in order to force them to do something that will hurt them and other people.
In this post, I am going to include links to videos and scientific journals that will show you, if you are willing to watch and read them with an open mind, that the majority of people in the world agree that climate change is caused by humans and that we can take action to stop it and prevent global warming, sea level rise, and pollution. There is almost nothing that the majority of people in the world agree on — we all have different religious beliefs and cultures and ways of seeing the world — but almost everyone in the world agrees that we need to do something about pollution and climate change, or we and our children and their children will suffer. I can see how you might have trouble understanding the concept of global warming, but how can you deny that pollution is real? You must know that when we throw garbage and spill oil into the water, we make it dirty and dangerous for humans, and the same is true for the air we breathe to stay alive.
You don’t have to be a scientist to understand that when you pump toxins, oil residue, and coal smoke into the air it has a negative effect on the quality of the environment. To claim there’s nothing humans can do to push back against pollution is just lazy. When I hear people who call themselves Christian (and yet don’t believe in feeding the poor or helping the sick, which seems profoundly unchristian to me) say that God will take care of the environment and climate change, I am struck by the fact that they seem to have forgotten a key tenent of their own religion: that God gave humans free will. As the air and the water gets dirtier and we do nothing to stop it, we are exercising our free will to cause harm to others. Isn’t one of the important beliefs in Christianity that people who do harm to others go to hell? With this decision to turn their back on literally the entire world except 2 countries (Syria and Nicaragua are the only two other countries in the entire world who have not signed this treaty, and Nicaragua didn’t sign it because their own environmental policies are stronger than those listed in the treaty), Trump and his greedy cronies have demonstrated a desire to wage chemical warfare on America and the rest of the world, harming billions of people.
This is not fake news. This is not a newspaper article (although I will include some, from reputable well established newspapers. By the way, if someone tells you not to read any newspapers, shouldn’t you wonder what they are trying to hide?). This is a letter from your cousin, who has known you since you were a baby, and has seen you treat others with compassion and kindness, and who knows that you are not stupid or a bad person. Like I said, I am not angry with you — I am scared for you. I am watching you bow down to someone who is harming you and harming me, and who has now made a decision that will inevitably hurt the whole world. You don’t have to be an activist, or change your career goals, or give up on your friendships. What you do need to do is start paying attention to reality. You have heard too much about hate and rejection and not enough about love and kindness in your life. It makes me so sad to think that you have gone through your life being taught to fear science and critical thought, that you have been told that you can’t hold religious beliefs that are important to you and at the same time accept what’s really happening in the world. I wish you never had to face this moment in history but unfortunately you do: it’s time to grow up, and accept that climate change, and acting to make the world a better place, is a human responsibility. No one is trying to take anything away from you or make you be a socialist or a communist or an atheist or any other kind of ist that you don’t want to be — this is a universal issue, that transcends economic theories. There are plenty of republicans who accept that climate change is real.
Here is NASA’s website on climate change, which states “Multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals1 show that 97 percent or more of actively publishing climate scientists agree: Climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities.”
NASA has designed rockets that have carried humans to the the moon, and made missions throughout the galaxy and outer space. Don’t you think you should pay attention to what they say about the planet we are closest to, the one our feet touch? Please look at the first chart, which shows that the climate has risen by 1.4 degrees since 1900.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
“The industrial activities that our modern civilization depends upon have raised atmospheric carbon dioxide levels from 280 parts per million to 400 parts per million in the last 150 years. The panel also concluded there’s a better than 95 percent probability that human-produced greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide have caused much of the observed increase in Earth’s temperatures over the past 50 years.”
https://climate.nasa.gov/causes/
If you want to talk to me about these issues, I am totally willing to explain anything that is unclear to you. I don’t think it’s a waste of time to show you the evidence because I honestly believe that you have only heard the same lies repeated over and over again for a while now, and that you haven’t seen the actual evidence presented in these pages.
You can send me a message or call me on skype if you want to talk about this some more. Good luck, Chris, I really hope for the best for you and Margaret, your kids, and the rest of our family. I wish politics hadn’t come between us, but I’m not about to give up on being able to have open, respectful communication with you.
I’m going to finish this list off with a very famous poem by a pastor who spent time in a Nazi concentration camp, which you may or may not have heard before. It’s been coming into my mind a lot lately, especially when I see your posts claiming that anyone who has a different economic perspective from you is an evil communist. That is a very dangerous and closed minded way of dealing with the world. In reality, there are many different economic systems. You may have found that capitalism works best for you, but that doesn’t mean that all other systems are intrinsically evil. There is a Native American tribe that has a primarily gift-giving economy — the more you can give gifts to others, the more you can prove that you are wealthy and gain status in that community. That economic system existed for centuries before Europeans came up with capitalism and communism, and many other economic systems. This poem is about the danger of staying silent during an authoritarian regime, even when the people being targeted do not share the same economic or religious beliefs as you. I hope you read it, and understand why I’m sending it to you.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris: What I posted was not claiming that climate change didn’t exist but it cited the UN’s own information on the Paris accord, which basically says it does nothing to stop climate change but wastes trillions of dollars.
As for climate change itself, there are scientists who don’t believe in the narrative, therefore it is not a consensus.
Also here’s how more extreme forms of climate change have existed in the past, and how we have recovered from them.
Here’s an article with sources on how the 97% consensus statistic was fabricated.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: Do you believe in gravity? Einstein’s theory of relativity? Greenhouse effect theory is over 100 years old. Every major institute that deals with climate-related science is saying AGW is here and real and dangerous, even though they will not remove the “very likely” and “strongly indicated” qualifiers. The translation of what the science is saying into the language of the public is this: Global warming is definitely happening and it is definitely because of human activities and it will definitely continue as long as CO2 keeps rising in the atmosphere.
Here are answers to all of your questions. I hope you find them helpful.
Besides, I don’t think you looked at the links I sent you, because you haven’t written anything that actually refutes the information they provide. You’re offering me a kind of nothing answer — “I believe in global warming but I don’t believe humans are responsible and I don’t believe we can do anything about it” — in spite of the fact that every major scientific organization in the world supports the evidence and says we need to take action immediately. I also asked you about pollution, which you ignored, so I’ll ask again: do you not believe that when we dump garbage and oil into the water, the water becomes polluted and dangerous for humans and marine life? And Chris, do you honestly think that a site called “wattsupwiththat” (a quote from a Saturday Night Live sketch) has more merit than the work of NASA scientists? The 97% consensus is not a myth — the math that they are using on that page doesn’t actually make sense or add up. You are buying it because it’s what you want to believe. Also, if the fact that the majority of scientists in the world have demonstrably proved that global warming is as serious as I previously stated, and caused by humans, does not convince you, what do you think of this number: 98.98%. That is the percentage of countries in the world who signed the treaty. If you don’t believe in scientific fact or consensus, in spite of overwhelming support from every single important environmental organization and scientific body, how can you turn your back on what is clearly a global consensus?
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — -
Chris: Climate change is a different issue from pollution, I don’t believe in man made global warming if that’s what you’re wondering. No its not the same thing as gravity, although even scientists still don’t know what causes it.
What about those ice ages though? We couldn’t control those and they were far more extreme than that 1 degree. Probably you should calm down.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: I am very calm Christopher. Otherwise I wouldn’t be able to continue this conversation with someone who is not engaging with the evidence I am providing them with. The issue of pollution is very important, because that is one of the main issues the Paris Accord deals with. So if you say you understand pollution is a problem, then I can’t understand why you would want to back out of the Accord. On the subject of whether the Paris Accord goes far enough, I think you’ll find that most of it’s supporters also agree that, over time, we have to go further. It is a starting point. However, you need to have a starting point for these kinds of policies and conversations. If you never start, nothing will ever happen. It’s like drawing a line in the sand… we find a way to get all 195 countries to agree to work together to curb emissions and deal with pollution, as a basic starting point, and then those countries individually have the ability to make even stronger laws on their home turf. As time goes by, having a draft of a starting point means you can come back to the table to renegotiate and make it stronger. Having an agreement between nations that we will all make an effort to deal with a problem that effects every single country in the world means that we are going down the right path. The Paris Accord is not the answer to all the world’s problems — it is the starting point for actually dealing with them. By leaving it, and refusing to engage with the conversations, cutting funding to projects that deal with pollution, we are actively causing harm and preventing even better policies from being developed.
The ice ages you refer to were caused by the collective effects of changes in the Earth’s movements on its climate over thousands of years, something called Milankovitch cycles. No natural cause has been identified for the current rise in temperature. There is no climatological theory in which CO2 does not drive temperature. And natural cycle precedents do not exhibit the same extreme changes we’re now witnessing.
Also you say scientists haven’t proved that CO2 causes an increase in temperature when that is a basic chemistry fact that you should have learned in high school. We emit billions of tons of CO2 into the air and, lo and behold, there is more CO2 in the air. Surely it is not so difficult to believe that the CO2 rise is our fault. But if simple common sense is not enough, there is more to the case. (It is worth noting that investigation of this issue by the climate science community is a good indication that they are not taking things for granted or making any assumptions — not even the reasonable ones!)
It is true that CO2 has gone up on its own in the past, most notably during the glacial-interglacial cycles. During this time, CO2 rose and fell by over 100 ppm, ranging between around 180 to 300ppm. But these rises, though they look steep over a 400Kyr timeframe, took 5K to 20Kyrs, depending on the glacial cycle.
By contrast, we have seen an equivalent rise of 100ppm in just 150 years!
This is a graph that traces changes in temperature and CO2 levels over time.
Here is a NASA animation that maps global warming over 100 years. The blue is cooler temperatures and the orange is warmer temperatures.
Do you honestly not believe in NASA science? If so, I’m surprised. Could you explain why?
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris: NASA hasn’t landed on the moon since the 70s and at that time the scientists thought we were about to freeze over in another Ice Age, they change their views all the time based on new evidence. And it looks like the video I shared mentioning the Roman warming period shows that it is natural for it to be as warm as it is now.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Sorry, nothing doing. Look at the charts on this page comparing the Roman Warm Period with temperature spikes over the last decade. “Current temperatures are hotter than at any time in the past 1,400 years, including during the Medieval Warm Period.”
Haha… so the Mars rover was accomplished by people who don’t understand science? The link that you just provided does not respond to the issue I raised about the collective effects of changes in the Earth’s movements on its climate over thousands of years… it is an example of a specific period which is included in all the charts and graphs I sent you, which does not compare to the intensity of current temperature heights :)
Sorry Christopher but you’re just providing more evidence to support the scientific facts that I’ve been providing you with.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — -
Chris: Or maybe they’re just colluding with the government because the government gets money from all those taxes?
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: Please show me an article that quotes him saying this. This is just a meme, it is not evidence. Here is some evidence: “The Arctic Ocean has thinned by 40 percent in less than 30 years. Alaska has retreated nearly 13 kilometers since 1982. In 1999, retreat rate increased from 25 meters per day to 35 meters per day.” Scroll down in this article to see a list of the global ice cover that has melted since the 70s.
Am I right in understanding that you don’t think we should fund space exploration? Where’s your natural curiosity about the universe? I thought you were a star wars fan. If you want to turn this into a broader conversation about the fact that money collected through taxes often gets spent on important scientific, medical, and social research projects I’m happy to go there with you and we can argue till we’re blue in the face, since you know that I think those projects and their funding are crucial, and I will have lots of arguments and articles for you to read that will explain why. Here’s one way of explaining it: Tina doesn’t have much money left, and her house has a reverse mortgage, which means it will be sold when she dies and the money will go to the bank. Therefore, our family will probably have to pool our money together to pay for her funeral. She won’t be able to pay for it out of what’s left over. We will all put money in, because we love her and believe that she deserves a decent, respectful funeral. Taxes are like that — we elect a government that chooses which projects the money that we, as a society, pool together, will go to. These projects might include public schools, scholarships for university students, health care, food programs for low income families, or, in this case, research into ways to stop pollution and global warming. Maybe we should save that for another thread though, because I’m more interested in finding out why you think we don’t need to do anything at all about pollution and global warming. You told me that you aren’t disputing that point that pollution is a problem. Regardless of whether you understand the chemistry behind how CO2 increases global temperatures, I’m sure you understand that it is not possible to breathe in too much carbon dioxide without dying. You must recognize how much carbon dioxide is going into the air, or do you think that that’s all made up to? What about my point about free will, and the fact that we don’t have to just accept things the way they are, that you can make a difference in the world? Basically, I think what you’re saying to me is that you think NASA is a conspiracy that solely exists to get money for the government… please correct me if I’m wrong? You are so focused on the idea that taxes shouldn’t exist that you are willing to sacrifice the idea of American innovation, your and my and our families’ right to breathe clean, unpoisoned air and drink clean water, and countless other freedoms that every other developed country in the world enjoys… Honestly I have to come back to my point from my opening letter to you: I find this world perspective to be deeply cynical and very sad. I am sad for you — you are a young man, just starting out in life, but you don’t seem to want to face the reality of the world you live in. You don’t seem to have any hope that you can change it if this global warming thing is true. I guess I can understand why not, like I said, it’s a scary reality to face. The thing is, all of these scientists and organizations who have provided us with evidence of what is happening have told us that there is something we can do — there are tons of ways to deal with pollution, and to stop putting so much CO2 into the air. We just need to actually do them, because every day that we delay it gets worse. You told me to calm down, and I think it’s because you think I’m writing so much because I’m upset with you, but I’m not. It’s because there is a real sense of urgency around these issues that I’m trying to express to you. No one likes to be rushed, and if you can’t or won’t understand what I’ve tried to tell you here, that’s up to you. But I hope you understand more now why people all over the world are working together to fight back against climate change and pollution. I guess it might feel good to think you’re smarter than 98.98% of the world, but I have to tell you… that’s going to be a lonely place to be in 30 years.
Also, Trump’s tax plan raises taxes on low income families by $2,440 (for your information), so if you’re not in favor of taxation why do you support him? And he’s cutting funding to the Environmental Protection Agency by 31%, so if you agree that pollution is a problem maybe you can explain to me why that’s a good idea. Here is a list of environmental cleanup programs that will be effected, including cutting grants that help states monitor public tap water systems; eliminate water cleanup programs for Chesapeake Bay, Gulf of Mexico, Lake Champlain, Long Island Sound, Puget Sound, San Francisco Bay, South Florida, and the Great Lakes among others; and a 45% cut to funds available for the cleanup of sites contaminated by hazardous substances and pollutants, like the now-defunct Wolff-Alport Chemical Company in Queens, in New York City. The site is heavily contaminated with thorium, a radioactive metal with a half-life of 14 billion years that has been linked to a higher incidence of lung, pancreatic and bone cancer.
Maybe you think I’m lying about all this, but I’m not. The sad reality is that over the last couple years I’ve watched you get sucked into a scam. You’ll probably be mad at me for telling you the truth (you know the expression don’t shoot the messenger) but I can’t be sorry for being honest with you. You deserve so much more than to be lied to by powerful men who you trusted. I honestly thought long and hard about whether I should even bother reaching out to you with this information, because I thought that you would probably just argue with me out of pride and reject everything that I said as made up, but I had to try. I’ve known you your whole life, and I still think of you as another little brother. But I also know you have to choose your own path, and your own beliefs. I just hope you don’t only choose those beliefs in order to go the opposite direction from the ideas I’ve presented you with, because I symbolize ideas that you’ve been taught to reject. You’re too smart for that Chris. No, I can’t be sorry for being honest with you and telling you everything that I know about this situation. Now it’s up to you. If you want to keep going on in blindness there’s nothing I can do about it. I really mean it when I say I wish you nothing but the best, and a long and happy life. I just wish you could live that life with your eyes open, and an awareness of how you can effect the world in a positive way — help, instead of harm.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris: You are wrong about the nature of government. Almost anything the government does can be done by the free market, except fight wars. I’m more of a minarchist though so I’m fine with joining the Navy.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: Oh boy. Time for a history lesson, and a few more GW quotes. Washington was a firm advocate for the establishment of a strong national government, and was a key player in the creation of the constitution, the social contract that binds America.
1. Laws made by common consent must not be trampled on by individuals.
2. There is nothing which can better deserve your patronage, than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.
3. Mankind, when left to themselves, are unfit for their own government.
4. The constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject and authorized such a measure.
5. It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a Free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defense of it.
6. The Constitution is the guide which I never will abandon.
7. Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all.
8. My first wish is to see this plague of mankind, war, banished from the earth.
9. While we are contending for our own liberty, we should be very cautious not to violate the rights of conscience in others, ever considering that God alone is the judge of the hearts of men, and to him only in this case they are answerable.
10. I have diligently sought the public welfare; and have endeavoured to inculcate the same principles in all that are under me. These reflections will be a cordial to my mind as long as I am able to distinguish between Good & Evil.
In the free market, what is the incentive for major polluters to stop polluting if there are no criminal charges for toxic waste spills in public water due to negligence, or caps on extremely high quantities of toxic air that factories produce? According to your argument, there should be no laws around pollution, and no repercussions for companies that put profits over social responsibility (ie. not poisoning people). You seem to be saying that it is more important for a company to make super high profits than it is for them to have any responsibility to their customers or the communities where they operate. Is that what you arguing? That individual companies profit is more important than pollution? The argument you are making is actually more anarchist than you realize — you are talking about a system in which there are no police. Do you not believe in police, who are paid by government money, and enforce laws that are written by elected officials? If you think that instead of police we should have private security companies, that doesn’t really work, because in that case there would be no laws, only the dictates of the company that hires them — at which point they cease to serve in a protective capacity and operate exclusively as mercenaries/thugs for hire. So you are either arguing for anarchism or against the concept of democracy. I find that interesting. Do you really believe there shouldn’t be any police, or any laws that deal with how much large companies are allowed to pollute? Here is a list of major polluters in the US, and how much they pollute (in toxic compounds and greenhouse gases, ie. CO2).
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris: I think those who pollute can be punished if they are actually hurting other people, with global warming though that’s not certain and so you are taxing people over that uncertainty.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: Chris, how can you still, after all the evidence that I’ve given you in this conversation, say that you don’t understand the effect of CO2 on the environment? And if you support punishing polluters, how can you defend Trump slashing funding to the department that regulates, monitors, and punishes those offenders, as well as cleaning up their messes?
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris:
______________________________________________________________________________
Me: I’m sorry if you didn’t learn this in high school, whoever taught your science class must have been pretty negligent (or maybe you skipped that day :)) so here is a video that explains how carbon dioxide increases the earth’s temperature. This is not a theory. This is fact. Anyone who tells you this is theoretical is lying, either out of ignorance or because they have investments in companies like those listed on the super polluters site a few comments up.
Throwing Nicholas Cage into your argument never convinced anybody. Did anyone ever teach you about the scientific method and peer review?
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris:
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: Did you check out the homepage of the site you just linked me to? This is what they say about climate science deniers: “Scientific skepticism is healthy. Scientists should always challenge themselves to improve their understanding. Yet this isn’t what happens with climate change denial. Skeptics vigorously criticize any evidence that supports man-made global warming and yet embrace any argument, op-ed, blog or study that purports to refute global warming.” There are a number of articles describing Trump as the worst president in history.
This chart appears on the first page. It’s titled “Most forms of science denial are fundamentally the same”
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris: They seem open to ideas then since they have the peer reviewed papers.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: The site is meant to demonstrate how biased and unscientific those essays are. This is the most recent article, besides one about carbon dioxide poisoning, on their front page.
By going directly for the very few articles that support your beliefs, rather than looking at the larger picture and trying to see why the website exists in the first place, you are doing something called “cherry-picking.” You are not looking at all the evidence, just the evidence that supports what you already want to believe.
Did you watch the video on greenhouse gases?
This one is also helpful.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Chris: Yea, I’ve seen it many times. Its not cherry picking, its evaluating the evidence for yourself and making a conclusion. I don’t see where the global warming alarmism is going to take anyone. Even if the planet were to burn up in such a way (which it isn’t), you wouldn’t be able to stop it. Will the planet die in a thousand years? a million? a billion? As far as we know through science, the universe will suffer heat death through the law of entropy. I could say
that I know for certain that the world will end differently, but I know you would not believe me, because its not accepted as science. Global warming will not be an issue when Christ returns, that’s how I actually know.
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
Me: You are still ignoring the scientific information I’ve tried to provide you with about how CO2 heats the environment, and are trying to distract from the point that there is such a thing as human responsability by talking about how the world is going to end anyway so nothing matters (which is nihilism). Throughout your responses to my comments you have continually ignored my initial point about free will, one of the most important ideas in christianity. How can you believe in Jesus if you don’t believe in free will and human responsibility? You don’t have to give up and say the world will end anyway so there’s no point in doing anything. These effects are definitely reversible. Humans can take action to fix the mistakes we have made in the past. If you believe in these things, why don’t you believe that we should limit the suffering of the people living in the world while it still exists? Also, it’s important for you to know that the effect of global warming is not that the world will “burn up.” Here are some of the effects of global warming: Sea levels are expected to rise between 7 and 23 inches (18 and 59 centimeters) by the end of the century, and continued melting at the poles could add between 4 and 8 inches (10 to 20 centimeters).
Hurricanes and other storms are likely to become stronger.
Floods and droughts will become more common. Rainfall in Ethiopia, where droughts are already common, could decline by 10 percent over the next 50 years.
Less fresh water will be available. If the Quelccaya ice cap in Peru continues to melt at its current rate, it will be gone by 2100, leaving thousands of people who rely on it for drinking water and electricity without a source of either.
Some diseases will spread, such as mosquito-borne malaria (and the 2016 resurgence of the Zika virus). Ecosystems will change: Some species will move farther north or become more successful; others won’t be able to move and could become extinct.
Wildlife research scientist Martyn Obbard has found that since the mid-1980s, with less ice on which to live and fish for food, polar bears have gotten considerably skinnier. Polar bear biologist Ian Stirling has found a similar pattern in Hudson Bay. He fears that if sea ice disappears, the polar bears will as well. There is a good video on this site.
Here are some actions that can be taken at a national and international level:
Here are some things that you personally can do:
The Paris Accord is, as I said earlier, a starting point to fight back against global warming and pollution that the whole world has agreed on. If you really believe that there’s no point in doing any of the many things that can be done to prevent global warming and pollution from getting worse in our lifetime, because the world might end, I’m sorry but that’s just a cop out. It’s a fatalistic excuse to be lazy and not demand responsibility from our leaders or ourselves. The people who told you should just throw your hands up in the air and give up were wrong, and they’ve done you a huge disservice. You think the world is going to end any day now? I don’t. I think we’re going to live long lives, and see the world change around us, and that we have a responsibility and an intrinsic human need to take part in making the world a better place.
You can’t spend your whole life waiting to die, even if you think you’re going to heaven. You have to live your life, in the best way possible, while you’re alive.
If you are interested in finding out more about environmentalism, and getting ideas for how you personally can live in a way that causes less harm, here is a list of websites that you can take a look at.
Part 2: the conversation continues
