Episode 1: What is Code?
In episode 1 we’re exploring what code actually is, with our specialist guest, Jenny Brennan.
Coding plays a huge part in all of our lives; it is the gap between human language and computer language. It’s what allows us to build apps and websites, to order from self check out machines, to put on goggles and be transported to a different world, and to count our steps from the watch on our wrists. In films and on TV, there is always someone typing ferociously away- the hacker character. We wanted to delve into what coding actually looks like day to day, away from the stereotypes.
For our first ever episode, Anisah and Serena will be demystifying coding with our expert guest, Jenny Brennan! Jenny is a researcher at the Ada Lovelace Institute. She, also, has previously has worked as a software engineer for companies such as Twitter and Entrepreneur First. She also works on her own projects which tend to have a focus on making tech more inclusive. She is also teaching the next generation of women to code — she’s previously taught for us, Code First: Girls, and Ada College, and runs Coders Who Teach.
Jenny will be explaining what coding is and all the different things you can do with it and much more! Plus, she’ll be the first contestant to take part in our rapid-fire game. Press play to get started!
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List of resources discussed:
Follow Jenny on Twitter.
Text Editors
“All computers come with text editors built-in. If you’re on a PC, then your built-in text editor is Notepad. If you’re on a Mac, there’s no program exclusively designed for writing code. However, you can set up TextEdit to work as a text editor by going into Preferences and selecting the Plain Text radio button.”- Codeconquest.com
Atom
Visual Studio Code
Learning Resources
23 Code Street
codepen.io
Codecademy
FreeCodeCamp
Github
Servers explained
Transcript
SC: Welcome to the 23 Code Street podcast. We’re here to make technology more accessible. If technology is going to define our future, shouldn’t we all be a part of the conversation?
I’m Serena and I’m Anisah- I can’t believe we’re finally recording a podcast — it’s kind of crazy! AOB: It’s a bit mad and it’s actually sweltering hot here at the pod at White City Place.
SC: It is boiling hot -for once it being warm in the UK is not an advantage.
AOB: It’s actually brilliant though, that we’re finally getting to talk a little a bit about technology and actually demystifying some of the things that we talk about in the office every single day. So, Serena, I’m going to start by asking you a question — what have you learnt this week?
SC: So I learnt this the week that clouds can be fake! It’s a real thing.
AOB: This is not a real thing!
SC: An Uber driver told me! So he asked me to look up at the sky and he said- this was in LA by the way- so obviously legit! I googled it and went on Wikipedia after- so he (the driver) said look at the sky and I did that, and he said “does that look like a cloud?” And I thought yeah I think so and then he’s like, “it looks like a very straight cloud”, like the cloud wasn’t fluffy, it had a straight line at the bottom. And then he’s like “there’s this thing called Cloud -Seeding where countries will make fake clouds so it looks more cloudy.”
I don’t know- it’s more kind of scenic and then I thought maybe he’s a bit crazy, I’m not sure. Then, I grabbed my phone to google it and cloud seeding is a thing! So it’d be like getting, like, I don’t know the actual the science behind cloud seeding, but it’s basically taking a part of a cloud and then you put it into the sky and you make like a fake cloud, but the bottom of the cloud looks fake because it’s just a straight line.
AOB: This is madness!
SC: So yeah cloud seeding is real -question everything! Clouds can not be real. I don’t think we have it in the UK or maybe we do- but we normally have a lot of clouds.
AOB: Wow. That’s amazing and really puts my learning of the room to shame. My learning of the week is that trees, when they die and fall off, their seeds like shake and drop all their seedlings which can land in the dead tree, and a tree can grow inside another dead tree.
SC: Wow.That’s very symbolic.
AOB: It’s actually a bit amazing isn’t it? I don’t know why we talk about Phoenix’s that are fake, when we could talk about trees dying and growing inside of trees. But it’s from this amazing book that I’ve been reading and about the hidden life of trees and it’s just such a brilliant book that. I didn’t actually realise how much we don’t know about the world that we live around. There’s so much we can learn from actual nature that we can then apply to tech — which I guess brings us to our first episode!
SC: I know -that’s a good segway in.
AOB: Thank you.
SC: Okay so let’s dive into our first episode and find out what code actually is!
AOB: Yep and to do that we’ve got our specialist with us today who is Jenny Brennan. Jenny introduced me to the best hot chocolate in London which is why she’s obviously here as a legendary specialist, but is also an incredible developer. Jenny, thank you so much for being here.
JB: Thank you for having me.
AOB: I would love to hear a bit more about who you actually are.
JB: So I’m a software engineer and at the moment I’m focusing on how we bridge the gap between tech and policy, but before that I’ve worked at places like Twitter, in a bunch of startups, at entrepreneur, first working across the tech stack and I’ve also done a bunch of teaching. So I love teaching people to code I’ve taught with here with the lovely 23 code Street and also with Code First: Girls in some other places, so I always love any opportunity to explain to people how these things work.
AOB: That’s exactly why we wanted you here today because what actually is code?
JB: Good question- it’s a good starting point. Code is all about what instructions we give to a computer to tell it what to do- at a basic level it’s just a list of instructions. In practice that normally means writing some text that might look a little bit different from what you’re used to, to make the computer do things. If you’re looking at a website then all of that is only there because of the code that makes it work.
AOB: Where do you actually write this text?
JB: Yes, so there’s lots of different types of code you could be writing — some code for instance, like I just said, will make websites , some code will make the apps on your phone or some code will run machines or robots, or the big Hadron Collider at CERN- like that’s all code. But if you’re doing what I do which is web development , then you write most of your code in a code editor or a text editor. So you just get a little program on your computer a little bit like Word or Google Docs, but for code.
SC: So are there different coding languages?
JB: Yeah there are lots of different ones and you’ll use them for different purposes, although some of them can kind of serve the same purpose, they’re not maybe as different as different languages. Sometimes people ask me can you code in a different language -but most of them are English based, although some people have created languages based on other character sets or languages. So for instance, if you’re making a website you might use something like HTML or CSS — these are two coding languages you could use or if you’re maybe doing something to like working with data you might be writing in Python.
SC: What’s the difference between a front-end language or a back-end one? Or just generally what do those two concepts mean ?
JB: Yeah so you’ll hear those around a lot, particularly when you talk about web development, and that’s because when we have a website there’s kind of two things going on, there’s a bit which is you looking at a screen on your favourite website- so say we’re looking at the 23 Code Street website. I’ve gone in like Google Chrome or whatever and the bit that I’m seeing is what’s called the front-end, right, so it’s a bit that you can see and it’s the code that’s being rendered inside your browser on your computer. But where all of that code is stored is not on your computer, so in fact what your computer is doing is going over the internet and talking to a computer somewhere else in the world, which has all of the information about 23 code Street on it and that is called the server.
So we think about that bit as the backend because it’s not the bit you’re looking — it’s a bit behind the scenes that’s making everything run. So when we talk about a front-end engineer, we sometimes call them a client-side engineer, because of the client is like the thing you’re looking through so that could be on your computer or on your phone, and then when we talk about a back-end engineer we mean someone who’s kind of like in the weeds figuring out how to serve that information to you — may be thinking about managing a database or something like that.
AOB: I’ve heard of a really good analogy around front end and back end to do with like the body. So the front end is everything that you see of me. You see my skin, my face or my hand movements that I do excessively but everything that makes it happen internally- the muscles, the heart- is kind of our back-end. I really like that analogy of just simplifying and what those concepts mean.
JB: Yeah I think that is a great way to break it down- it very much just like one bit that’s easier to see and the other bit that’s going on behind the scenes
AOB: So Jenny I’m still a bit confused. I get that you’re writing some code in this word like program which is the text editor, but how does that actually end up online and what if I’m just like learning I don’t want the whole world to see this thing I’m creating that’s probably terrible?
JB: Obviously we often like to test stuff before the whole world sees it -so it’s normally wrong first time right, so if you are writing, for instance, the code for a web page- you might be writing some HTML or some CSS, you can write that in your code editor or text editor on your computer and then you can just save the file. You’d normally say this is something like an HTML file and you can just open it with Google Chrome and then you can see what it would look like if it was on the real web but it’s all just on your computer. If you’re thinking about like the long term- where does code live- normally that involves having some kind of hosting server for your code, and this will look quite different depending on the kind of thing that you’re doing so a lot of people in industry might if it’s just a small website a host it using GitHub on GitHub pages. If you’re a company like Google ,Facebook or Twitter and you’ll have your own big warehouses of servers to host autofill code on.
AOB: Yeah I know that they have like duplicate servers kind of across the world so if one goes down it’s still replicated in other places. You have to keep them really cool right?
JB: You have to keep them really cool, they have specialists like architects who specialize in designing how you keep all these computers from overheating and how you stop them from you know going down if there’s an earthquake or a fire — it’s really intense. So that’s how they keep these big websites running.
AOB: It’s crazy- it’s probably why when things go down, it all goes down and it’s terrible. Just another quick question about text editors — say I’m learning, I’m just starting to get into it or I just want to write a few lines, can I just like download one of these text editors or write something in Word? How does that actually work?
JB: Yeah your computer will probably come in with something inbuilt that can edit code, but there’s a lot of code editors you can just download like ‘vs code’ or ‘atom’ but there’s also a bunch of things online if you just want to try it out so there’s a website called CodePen.io which is really great if you want to try out writing some web code and then seeing what it would look like right there in the same page, or things like Code Academy or Repel.it Also all have interactive code editors that you can use in on the website and not have to download anything.
AOB: Are they all free?
JB: Pretty sure all of those ones I just listed are free - there’s definitely free ones available.
AOB: Amazing!
SC: So how did you first get into coding, like what made you interested in coding?
JB: Yeah so, I had a bit of an unusual route in. Honestly I was a really really bored 11 years old- I moved from the South East of England to like rural Wiltshire when I was like 11 and I didn’t really have any friends in this tiny little village so I befriended my computer like a true nerd. It’s pretty tragic- by the time I was 14 I actually realized that making websites was both more fun and better paid than a Saturday job, so I started selling websites and it was pretty lucky back then, the internet was kind of new so there was a pretty good market for that. Then as I got older I realized that there was actually a lot more to the tech industry than making the old website and just so got more into doing software engineering.
SC: How did your 10 or 11 yourself teach yourself to code? Did you use websites? Was Youtube around then?
JB: I think YouTube was a thing! Yeah hmm I don’t know- this is giving away my age. So yeah, the thing I’ve always said is great about the Internet, is if you’d like to know how to make the Internet you can find this out on the Internet! So at the time, the kind of resources that were available were much less good than they are today, but there were a lot of people who had written tutorials -there were forums etc you could get involved in, but nowadays there are much more targeted resources if this is something you’re interested in -which is really really awesome
SC: So did you do computer science at university?
JB: No I didn’t. I have no formal -I don’t know if this is going be a bad thing to say- but I have no formal qualifications in computing whatsoever. Anice thing about the tech industry, and it’s not universally the case but it’s very often the case, that if you can do the thing you can get somewhere with it and you don’t need formal qualifications to be able to do it. Some of the big tech companies might try and ask for them, but for a lot of roles in tech that they’re really not required.
SC: What does your role involve as a software engineer?
JB: So broadly we said earlier that the idea of writing code was to give computers an instruction. As a software engineer, my job is to write that code and to do it kind of to fit it with whatever the goal of the company or product is.
On a day to day basis that might look like meeting with other colleagues to work out like what we need to build it might look like sitting in front of my computer and building it or pairing with another engineer to get something done or a whole range of things that get us towards delivering that code that’s needed. I think a lot of people think coding is just you, but actually you work, with tons of different teams!
A lot of people often think coding is quite an anti-social job. I think the stereotype is a kind of nerdy looking person behind a glaring screen in a dark room and that’s really not my experience of coding or software engineering. In fact the code, as much fun as it can be, is often the least important part of the actual job that I do. That’s really just the end result once I figured out what needs to be done and how we’re going to approach it then I finally write it up in code. But that whole piece beforehand or figuring out what’s needed, how we can all get it done as a group of people, to understand things like user needs, to understand how the rest of my team can approach this and what skills you have, that’s all way more important than the end code. Because without that we wouldn’t be writing the right stuff, so it ends up being quite a sociable job. I spend a lot of my time working like directly with others and the code piece is really just that final output at the end of all that.
SC: So just wondering why didn’t you study computer science?
JB: At least partially was because I didn’t really know it was much the thing. My at experience school was that most people didn’t really know. Most of my teachers didn’t really understand what I was doing with computers and so I didn’t really have any reason to think that a university, which in my little mind was basically a big school, would know anything much more about the internet and I was interested in other subjects- the kind of stuff I’d done at school was never this and I was interested in exploring other things. In hindsight, I don’t know if this was wrong. I really enjoyed my degree instead.
AOB: What was it you studied?
JB: Politics, philosophy and economics. A bit different from coding.
AOB: Well that explains kind of your your new interest right of policy meets tech.
JB: Yeah so bridging those two things — after having seen these two quite different worlds and realizing where there’s a lack of understanding between those things, and the risks that that poses to us as technology becomes more and more fundamental to our lives. I realised,that I guess, I have a unique opportunity to kind of hopefully do some real good.
AOB: I think that really segways nicely into my next question because some of the best developers that I meet aren’t developers who have learned atUniversity. They’re not computer science graduates, they didn’t go through that standard normal process and they have got that thing of bridging two worlds. So if you don’t need to have a computer science degree — how else can you get into the industry?
JB: Absolutely I think there’s a real value in us having a wider range of perspectives in tech and there are lots of ways I was self-taught I literally just went on the internet figuring out how to do it, until I guess I got to a level that someone would probably give me a job. But there are also a bunch of courses and programmes available- obviously you guys at 23 Code Street and there’s a whole bunch of courses whether online or in-person, that you can take varying from like free to paid, depending how high you want to go.
If you just want to try out — just like try out some things online with some of those resources available and then from there you can get a feel of whether this is interesting. The one thing I’d say is like most valuable in all of those things is trying to build yourself a community so if you’re involved with like 23 code Street or Code First: Girls for instance — they often come with this wonderful previously built communities for you, but even if you’re teaching yourself there’s loads of organizations or events that you can attend, which might help you build up that connection between like people who are either working in industry or other people who are learning, so it can help give you that feedback that you might need to learn.
So things like Code Bar, which is an awesome meet up for underrepresented people in tech. Be mentored like on a regular basis or things like that. There’s also Free Code Camp online which is quite a cool group of learners and Code Newbies which is like an online regular Twitter chat and community. So there’s a lot of different ways in and there’s a lot of people out there to help and support you.
AOB: Amazing. I think like Free Code Camp, Khan Academy, Treehouse.. they have such great free resources that like — as you say if you just want that first dip into the industry it’s a really great way of being able to play with some things. And you mentioned Code Pen earlier. I still use Code Pen- I’m meant to be pretending I know nothing about code but I love, I really do love Code Pen especially when we’re teaching because it really shows you that you can do the same thing in a hundred different ways. It’s such a creative job which I don’t think people expect that. I don’t think people expect code to be creative.
AOB: So then do you find coding creative?
JB: I really think it is. I’ve always said the thing I like about coding is it has these two parts to it, one is this kind of creative challenge of what should we be doing, and then this logical challenge of like how should we get that done how should we make that work and so I’ve always found it quite creative. I think it can kind of depend on the approach you take to it -some people always think it’s a very analytical very like objective thing, but there’s often a lot of different ways to achieve the same goal and figuring out which is best is often more of the case.
I feel like it’s more of a soft skill, so, for instance, a lot the time you care about your code being readable or understandable by another engineer.Now that’s that’s not always such an objective thing, that can be quite subjective, and it can take a bit of crafting to get it there and then also a lot of my front-end development work for instance that I did often interacts with the design very heavily, and sometimes I’ve done both of those roles so then that can be a very little creative piece.
AOB: You talked about soft skills and one of the things that we focus a lot on is accessible development. This idea of making our code accessible to as many people as possible is there something that you look at quite a lot too.
JB: Yeah I think accessibility is super important and it’s also really unfortunate it’s often overlooked. It’s something that generally comes up in in more of the front-end development space, so how do we think about making websites that are accessible to maybe people with page readers, or people with colour blindness or people who, maybe have you know, would struggle with clicking on something that was moving faster for instance, and there’s lots of things that you can do in your code to make it more accessible.
So for instance when I worked at Twitter we added in TweetDeck the ability to add alternative text to your images, because that’s something for page readers, so someone who is blind might use a page reader to read your screen and as opposed to like you know not being able to tell you anything about this picture of a dog. If you write something nice and descriptive about the image that’s there then they’ll get that description instead, and so for a product that is used by journalists for instance, that can be really helpful because it means that they’re getting across more thorough information to a wider group of people.
AOB: Alternative text is something that we talk about a lot and how we write our alternative text should be as beautiful as the image that we’re looking at and I think that’s a really nice way of looking at accessibility- that we want to give them the same experience whatever that means to them, and so it’s really exciting to me that more developers are starting to to look at it, and to actually make it a priority. Twitter recently made it one of the things to add alternative text to all images on Twitter and which we’ve been doing now. It’s great that we feel that we can serve all of our audience and not just a really small proportion.
JB: Yeah absolutely, it just makes such a difference but I think there is a lot to be learned. I’m by no means an expert when it’s something that I’m constantly thinking about how can how can we improve in this space
AOB: Ahundred percent. I think we feel the same way, it’s like we only do 20% it’s like how do we get to 100%. We know our websites not even fully accessible and we bang on about it 24/7 -so we’ve got a long way to go.
SC: Why should you learn to code if you don’t want to become a software engineer?
SC: There’s lots of reasons that coding might be really useful to you even if you don’t think you want that to be your full-time job, so for instance a lot of people if you work in in marketing or creative industries -you might have to deal with HTML marketing emails or you might want to be able to update your company’s website or sometimes you might just work with technical people.
It might be really useful if you could better communicate with them by having a bit more of an understanding of what their work entails and what kind of challenges might be there, like if you’re working with a team building your website, being able to understand when your asks a big asks or when they’re small tasks can really help you with planning your projects.
There are tons of reasons that it could be really handy even if it’s not the thing that you do for a job. Even if you just want to do personal projects so a lot of stuff I do is not necessarily work and sometimes I have ideas and I just want to be able to build them, whether it’s just a prototype or a kind of a more permanent project.
SC: And is there a demand for people who can code?
JB: Massively. The tech’s industry demand for engineers massively outstrips supply. Particularly kind of I guess like higher up seniority but like that will only grow over time. Probably Anisah will know this better than me, but there’s some kind of number — by 2030 we will be missing like a million technical individuals or something in the UK.
AOB: 1.2 million jobs will go unfulfilled in the UK by 2025.
JB: Yeah so there’s a lot of jobs and as a result, it means that it’s a not only a very pretty like stable career and there are tons of job opportunities. I’ve been very lucky as a result not to like worry too much about like job security and stuff. Like the worst-case scenario there’s probably another job you can get and it’s also pretty well paid which is always really handy to know.
The industry comes with pretty good lifestyle so you know you’re talking like rolling into the office at 10:00 a.m. like more of a 10:00 to 6:00, maybe 9:00 to 5:00 flexible working, remote working and like general things that, make life easier easier to work around and so that’s like a kind of lucky aspect of the industry. When demand outstrips supply then there’s a little bit more you can ask for.
AOB: Sounds a bit like a dream
JB: it’s pretty good I can’t complain.
AOB: Where do I sign up!?
SC: So there’s lots of different titles people probably hear about- so what is the difference between a programmer, software engineer, developer, and coder?
JB: tThis question drives me crazy— there’s no good answer to that question really. It tends be on trends- so I’d say software engineer is probably the current trend and popular name. It sounds better I think people give it a bit more credibility than developer which is completely ridiculous because they’re the same job. To be honest they’re the same.
Coder I think tends not to be a job title, it tends to be more of a casual thing to be said. I’m sure people will come up with some kind of definition or distinction between them and they’ll probably be like notes written about this. But then a computer was originally a word used to define like a woman who was programming machine right, so I think it’s easier to like assume what a set of people do from a like a job title or a label when in practice and historically people were probably doing a lot more than we ever gave them credit for, and like today I’d say never judge someone by what the thing says on their CV or the label. Look more into what they’ve actually been working on.
AOB: It is this idea of like these myths that we have. These myths of if you’re a developer you’re worse than a software engineer and if you started when you were really really young you’re going to be really good, but you can’t learn when you’re older. So I’d love to talk about some of these myths and maybe we can start with the age one- do you have to be a genius young child programmer, a bit like you, to get into the industry and have a career?
JB: So useful clarification- distinctly not a genius.
AOB: Definitely a genius!
JB: So no I’m probably pretty weird to have started coding as a kid, obviously like a bunch of people do and that’s great if you’re one of those people, but it’s just not required. You can move into tech industry at any age- I’m not to say that the tech industry is like always super great on on age diversity. So the tech industry has a reputation for having loads of young people and maybe occasionally, for like you know, not being super good with the age, diversity etc and I’m not saying it’s not issues around there.
You can go and learn those skills and get to the point where you’re able to work as a developer — this is totally doable at any stage. Anyone could do this at any point in life and we’re seeing lots and lots more career changes and the real value this brings in having experience in other fields.
So I worked at Twitter with the amazing Amy Simmons, who used to be a journalist and then moved into software engineering and then work at Twitter on TweetDeck which is a product that serves journalists. So you couldn’t dream of a better engineer towork on that kind of product- with a real understanding of what the users need- and all of that, as well as the fact that she’s just like an awesome person and engineer.
SC: You also said that you don’t have to be genius-I always hear that you have to be really good at science and maths to be an engineer is this true?
JB: No no no it’s not. I guess traditionally computer science degrees etc tend to be more mathematically focused but that’s not really important. I don’t really recall ever doing any math at work that’s not like something that I could Google or use a calculator for. And when I say maths — I’m just adding some sums. Logical thinking is something that comes up but whether or not you get on with Maths is not necessarily an indicator whether you like to code or not.
SC: Is it true that most developers are young white men who kind of look like Mark Zuckerberg?
JB: Um, I wish I could say no so they don’t all look like Mark Zuckerberg but there is obviously a massive diversity issue in tech, some men are massively over-represented in tech, and in particular white men. It’s something that people like 23 Code Street and a bunch of others are actively working on but we’re not there yet. I have worked at many companies where I’ve been the only woman engineer and that is a reality for a lot of people, but it doesn’t mean that there are some companies who are doing really amazing at this, and there are also a lot of amazing communities where you can find people like yourselves working in the tech industry- but we’ve got a way to go.
AOB: So hows does the stereotype of being a typical developer- so white young male- affect the culture of working?
JB: As a women in tech yeah I think it’s fair to say that like historically technology has like a stereotype of beer and ping pong and pizza — this is something that you see in a cool startup. My favourite one is when there’s like more dogs on the team page than women. However there are a ton of places working to really combat and do something different to the tech meetups in my day.
I really think about how can we do stuff differently- like you know why does there need to be alcohol at this work-based event. How can we provide food that is not merely like heavy carbohydrates and meat and things like that? And so stuff like this is shifting culture, and companies are starting to think about more about like wellness and things, just because there’s the demand for it. As tech is, at least in some places, is starting to look a bit different. People are starting to see that this kind of like macho bro-y culture, it’s not like a healthy one for everyone.
AOB; I think that’s exactly right. The key term is “for everyone” and I think as we start to see this changing culture we’re really going to see a change of who enters our industry and that’s exciting, because I think we’ll see a real change in what’s created too, and we’re starting to see that in the startup industry which is exciting but hopefully we see some more in the next couple of years.
AOB: OK Jenny, I know you’re a total pro but are you as much of a pro as we think you are? Sowe have a little game and as you’re the first player you’re gonna be at the top of the leaderboard anyway.
JB: That’s good.
AOB: So yeah congratulations already. So there are ton of short forms and acronyms used in tech like a popular one being AI for artificial intelligence.
JB: That’s one point…
AOB: So your job is to give us the full forms of as many of the following as possible in 30 seconds.
JB: This is like my nightmare interview scenario.
AOB: This would never happen in real life.
JB: No
AOB: Because you don’t need to memorize this
JB: It’s true it’s so I normally say when I’m teaching classes about this -if I say something like HTML or CSS I say here’s what it stands for, but you don’t need to remember it unless you’re doing a pub quiz and I think that pub quiz is now!
AOB: This is it. This is your moment to shine. So Serena’s gonna do the timer and she’s gonna count how many points you get. OK, three… two.. one…
AOB :HTML
JB :hypertext markup language
AOB: CSS
JB: Cascading style sheet
AOB: JS
JB: Javascript
AOB :SQL
JB :Something query language language
AOB:PHP- Do you know what PHP stands for?
AOB: API
JB: Application programming interface
AOB: PC
JB:Portable computer
AOB: OS
JB: Operating system
AOB: Yes
AOB :HTTP
JB: Hypertext Transfer Protocol
SC: And stop!
AOB: Yh yes that was amazing. How many did she get?
SC: 10 points
JB: That could have gone worse.
SC: That’s amazing
JB: Yeah I’m gonna be in trouble with all the PHP developers.
AOB: Did we tell you what it stands for?
JB: No
AOB: It stands for hypertext preprocessor.
JB: Oh wait that was HTTP — did I get that wrong as well?
AOB: Sorry what did I say? PHP? it was. PHP is hypertext preprocessor.
JB: But that’s not beginning with P. I was never going to get that question. well I learned something today.
AOB: Awesome we’re done. Thank You Jenny.
Thanks Jenny so much for being here with us today- we’re so grateful for your time and put all your expertise. If you want to find out more from Jenny and ask her more questions or just stalk her, in general, you can find her on Twitter at @JennyHBren.
Thank you so much to you for listening to us. We would love to hear what you thought of our first episode and you could drop us a note on Twitter or on Instagram @23CodeStreet or you can email us hello@23codestreet.com.
Don’t forget to press the subscribe button. You can also follow us on twitter and instagram @23codestreet and check out our website 23codestreet.com
SCL:I’m Serena Chana and
AOB: I’m Anisah Osman Britton
SC: Thank you Tom Salmon for our cute jingle.
AOB: and thank you to the pod at White City place where this podcast was recorded.
