#15 | Joseph — Future of Data Sharing

By Dhriti Agarwal, Soumitro Datta, Prajna Nayak & Dharmesh Ba

Published in

D91 Labs

16 min readMar 22, 2021

This interview was conducted as a part of ‘Future of data sharing’ sponsored by Facebook. In this series, we interviewed participants around their access, adoption, and usage of financial products along with their perception of data sharing to financial institutions.

Disclaimer: The income range was self-reported by the participant. D91 Labs does not request the participants to disclose their exact income.

Short Story

51-year-old Joseph has been a Rural Medical Practioner (RMP) doctor for 25 years now. He lives with his wife and 2 teenage kids in Hyderabad. Joseph recently achieved his dream of buying a house. He plans to finance his younger son’s education and invest in gold and land. He also has chit funds and LIC policies in place, so his wife and he can be independent after retirement.

Banking

Joseph has 2 bank accounts. He opened the first one with the Bank of India, after graduating in 1995. He has a debit card linked to it.
He opened his second account with SBI in 2018 with the idea of borrowing a home loan which later did not materialise. He doesn’t have any cards linked to it.
While Joseph has an updated passbook for his SBI account, he stopped updating his Bank of India passbook after he started checking his transactions online on the bank’s mobile app.
He visits the Bank of India only 1–2 times a month when he requires a bank statement, an address change or for submitting documents.

How did you open your account with Bank of India?
When I had just completed my degree, I used to get a stipend salary for some part-time small jobs. At that time, we did not get bank accounts easily. You required a reference from someone who had an account in the same bank. Using a friend who worked at Bank of India as my reference, I opened my first account. I used to get cheques to deposit in the bank since you got a cheque for everything then.
Why did you open an SBI account when you already had an account?
2 years ago, I wanted to apply for a home loan. After checking with SBI and United Bank of India, I opened the SBI account although I didn’t know anyone there. However, I dropped the idea of my home loan as SBI was asking me for too many guarantors of salary and employment, who were difficult to get. You cannot get a loan easily with SBI. Now, I don’t use this account and it has no cards linked to it. It won’t have more than ₹2000–3000.
How do you manage the cash flow from your doctoral practice?
These days everyone is using so many apps like Google Pay and PhonePe. Mostly, my patients directly pay in cash. If not, they use Google Pay or PhonePe. There is no card option.

Payment Modes

Joseph’s preferred payment methods are debit card and UPI Apps.
He withdraws cash 1–2 times a week from his Bank of India account.
Joseph regularly uses his Bank of India account for MobileBanking on his phone and occasionally for NetBanking on his laptop. He has also linked this account to UPI Apps like PhonePe, Google Pay and BHIM.
Joseph doesn’t use credit cards.

Is there any particular reason why you don’t use credit cards?
So many people ask me to take a credit card but I don’t. These days credit cards are an unwanted expenditure and they are misused. If I want to purchase something luxurious, I want a credit card as it gives me the ability to do so. But we need to limit our expenditure and spend according to the money we have. If I have ₹50,000, I will plan and equally distribute my purchases to buy everything that I need. But if I have a credit card, I may go overboard and purchase unnecessary luxury items. Then, I will end up paying interest, people will keep calling to ask me why I have not made any payments yet and it’ll cause so many stress-related diseases. Why take this extra headache if we can be happy being middle-class and easily adjust to what we have?
What kind of transactions do you use NetBanking for?
I use it for giving my friends money, to shop for clothes or anything and sometimes to buy groceries at the supermarket.

You mentioned that you don’t use PayTM. Is there any reason for that?
I have not thought about it yet. People say that you need to submit documents for Aadhar verification and I am not interested in PayTM. I get scared because PayTM has been misused by people. Nothing has happened to me or anyone I know until now, but people talk about their documents being misused.
Have you ever faced an issue with Google Pay or PhonePe?
Yes, Google Pay has some problem but PhonePe works properly. For groceries, I prefer paying through UPI Apps but sometimes these apps don’t work. Then, I have to go and withdraw money from an ATM. Multiple times, I have paid online and the money is debited but it is not received. Once it happened at a petrol pump and I got it back in 2–3 days. Another 2 times, I tried withdrawing ₹2000 from HDFC Bank ATM and ₹3000 from ICICI Bank ATM but the amounts were not received. I was in Visakhapatnam and didn’t have any money so it was very problematic. I had to call a friend to pay for me. When I showed all these slips to the Bank of India in Hyderabad, they looked into the matter and I received my money after 3–4 days. I didn’t face any loss but it was difficult.

Expenses

Joseph’s regular monthly expenses include rent, utility bills, groceries, petrol, transport and his younger son’s tuition fees.
Joseph’s elder son pays for their mobile recharges and utility bills on Jio, Airtel and Vodaphone apps. He uses Joseph’s debit card or occasionally pays them via PhonePe linked to his own Bank of India account.
Before COVID-19, Joseph would visit supermarkets to buy groceries once in two months. But during COVID-19, he finds it safer to purchase 15 days worth of groceries from known local stores.

Why do you transfer your rent using BHIM instead of PhonePe or Google Pay?
My landlord doesn’t believe in Google Pay and PhonePe since he is not very educated. He lives in a village, and he probably just passed 8th or 10th class. He specifically asked us not to transfer using Phone Pe or Google Pay. So I enter his bank details and transfer the rent to him via BHIM and then, Whatsapp him a screenshot of the receipt.
Do you give your sons money for their monthly expenditure?
Monthly, I give my wife ₹10,000 in cash for household expenses and if my sons need money, I transfer it using PhonePe and Google Pay. My elder son handles our gas, electricity, internet and cable bills via PhonePe linked to his own Bank of India account. I transfer money to him either via Google Pay or a direct bank transfer. His college also deposits a monthly college stipend in his account. Since my younger son is only in 12th, we don’t give him money or he may get out of hand. But he uses my debit card for mobile recharges. Both of them know my bank details.
Have you saved your credit card details on any app for easier use?
No, I don’t do that. If needed, I can always enter details and make transfers. If I save them, this is a touch phone (with no buttons) so I will always be insecure that payments may go through by mistake. We need to take care of money matters, right? My sons also use my debit card but they have not saved its details. I haven’t told them anything, it’s up to them if they want to save the details or not.
Do you budget and track your monthly expenses?
Yes, I write my monthly income received and the expenditure on shopping, household needs and my sons’ expenses on a sheet 1–2 times a month. I maintain a monthly budget since it is important to track if our expenditure is more or less, know what we are saving and plan how to earn more in the future. Of course, sometimes we have unexpected expenditure like marriages or emergencies.

Loans

Joseph has taken 2 gold loans. He took the first one from Repco Bank.
In 2019, he took another gold loan from Muthoot Finance, an NBFC. He makes the repayments either in cash or on the Muthoot Finance app via debit card.
Joseph plans to clear this loan in 1–2 years.

“We don’t prefer loans or EMI that much. We bought both our vehicles with direct cash. I prefer cash.”
You mentioned that you were planning to take a home loan from the Bank of India. Why did you change your mind and take a gold loan from Muthoot Finance instead?
In 2018, I opened the SBI account to apply for a home loan. But I had to drop the idea of a home loan because they were asking me for too many guarantors and troubling us with ‘bring this document, bring that document, this document is incorrect’. And if we take a loan of 30 lakhs, we have to repay a double or triple interest of 50 lakhs and we would be tensed about when the loan will get over. You cannot get a loan with SBI easily so I stopped my application. Why should we take bank loans? We are going to pay for our loans. So, I put all my gold in the bank and took direct cash to buy our house.
What is your plan to repay Muthoot loan?
Every month, I get a CTC amount on an instalment basis. We are saving and after repaying the amount, we will get back the gold. It can take 1–2 years also since it is a huge amount.
Why did you take one Gold Loan from a government bank and the other from an NBFC?
First, I took a gold loan from Repco Bank. It is a central government bank so it was a safer option and had a lower rate of interest of ₹0.8–1. But Repco didn’t give much money, calculating the amount based on the percentage of gold and stone rather than the gold deposited. These private banks had a higher interest of 1.5–1.30 per month but more money for gold. I took a smaller amount from Muthoot since the same amount as Repco was time-bound.
Would you opt for a 0% EMI offer?
They say 0% first, then trouble us later. After going there, it is 1%, after taking the EMI it is 2% and then come excuses like “Sir, this bank statement has increased, so we have to increase EMI.” The rate of interest will reduce but they don’t give intimation. It didn’t happen to me because I didn’t take the bank loan but I am telling you this is the financial situation. My friends talk about taking loans from banks or LIC, who don’t tell them if the interest rate drops but when it increases, correctly inform you that you’ll have to pay the increased rate this month.

Investments

Joseph has currently invested in 2 chit funds. He has been investing in chit funds since 2010.
Joseph’s first chit fund is a 5-year scheme with Margadarsi, taken in 2017. He also invested in a private chit fund for 20 months.
He makes their monthly payments via cheque.
Joseph plans to put 1 floor of his house on rent so he can repay the loans using the extra income.
He also has family land in his hometown, which is used for agriculture.
Joseph can save only 20–30% of his salary since 70% goes on expenditure. Thus, he doesn’t have enough to have a variety of investments.

I have never even thought about investing in the share market. Daily, it goes up and down during this COVID-19 situation.
Why did you invest in chit funds? Did anyone recommend it to you?
We got to know about these chit funds and the commission we can get from it through Margadarsi agents, friends and colleagues. If we keep money in the bank, we can’t see it. If we keep surplus money with us, it gets spent but if we don’t have money, we use it carefully. So to save money, we use chit funds of ₹5,000 every month. After receiving the lump sum amount, we can invest it or repay the gold loan. We are also planning to rent the upper floor of our house. It is a tension, but getting rent money to repay the gold loan is necessary.
Why did you invest in the Margadarsi chit fund?
Their agents educated, recommended and motivated us about the chit funds and the commission we can get from it. They told us that we can get the money only once and if we take the money in between, we have to pay so-and-so amount. Margadarsi is owned by ETB channel so it has a guarantee, which is not there anywhere else. It has low commission, but it has surety.
Can you talk a bit more about your local chit fund?
A local financer has chits of 1, 3 or 5 lakhs. If I deposit ₹10,000 monthly for 20 months, then I will get 2 lakhs at once. But if I take in between, the commission is more. These local chit funds are short term of 12–20 months maximum. So I can use it for small expenditures like paying college fees or buying gold or land.

Insurances

Joseph opted for a health insurance policy from Apollo in 2014, which has now changed to HDFC ERGO. It also covers his wife and sons.
Till last year, he used to pay the annual premiums to the agent via a cheque. Now, he pays them on the HDFC ERGO app via debit card.
Joseph purchased 2 21-year LIC life insurance policies in 2008 — one for himself and another for his wife. He pays the annual premiums via cheque and gets an online message confirming his payment.
He also purchased vehicle insurance for his 2 cars from ICICI Lombard at the showroom. He pays the annual premiums at the showroom via debit card.

Why did you take health insurance from Apollo Munich (HDFC ERGO)?
My friend had taken it from Apollo Munich (HDFC ERGO) since his friend was a commission-based freelance agent at Apollo. He said my family would be covered so I paid ₹10,000 for a year. It’s been 8 years since I took it and the premiums are now ₹17,000.
Did someone recommend taking a term or life insurance to you?
A LIC agent who was my friend’s reference only. You know the motivation marketing people do with different schemes, right? I fell for it. He said that he will get a commission so I decided to take a life insurance scheme.

Technology

Joseph has been a smartphone user for 10 years and everyone in his family has 2 sims.
He uses Whatsapp and Gmail regularly. Occasionally, he uses Facebook and Skype. He mostly uses these apps only for messaging and he only has limited apps on his phone.
Joseph doesn’t use Facebook to log in to other apps. He has never changed his privacy settings on Whatsapp or Facebook.

How many SIM cards do you have?
We all have our own Jio numbers here at home and each of us has 2 sims. I have Jio and Idea, my elder son has Airtel and Jio and my wife has Jio and Tata Docomo.
Do you read the terms and conditions and privacy policies of apps before using them? Have you ever denied these apps any permissions?
No, I haven’t really noticed terms and conditions, etc. When I get requests to access my email id or documents from certain apps, I don’t grant. Despite that, I am able to use these apps.

Data Sharing and Privacy

Joseph initially preferred government banks for higher safety and a lower rate of interest. But if the interest rate was the same, he would opt for private banks since they would do immediate processing. He would choose HDFC Bank for a personal loan.
His second preference would be non-banking services and the third would be government banks.

Would you consider taking a loan from a UPI App?
We don’t know about the interest rate or terms and conditions from the apps yet but I am open to the idea. I don’t have as much experience in private apps as I do with government banks, private banks and non-banking services like Bajaj Capital, for so many years. Since I have no experience or knowledge of these apps, I don’t know how to approach those apps, search for loans, go through agents etc.

We asked the participant what kind of data they would be interested in sharing across the different types of loan providers to borrow a personal loan.

Joseph has no issue sharing his personal, investment, financial and insurance details with everybody.

Are you willing to share your Aadhaar and PAN Card to avail a personal loan?
No. I have no issues sharing my RC number and driving license and personal address also. But right now, I give my Aadhar and that causes trouble. If I share my PAN, then you can know all my accounts’ transactions. Nowadays, you use your Aadhar and PAN to transfer to other accounts, right? On TV, in newspapers and public say that if you give your Aadhar, the full details of your bank account can be seen. I won’t share Aadhar and PAN with anybody, that is confidential. But if it is a must to avail a loan, then you must share. I could share with government banks and then private banks, that’s all. Not with non-banking services and UPI apps.
If you have an option to share your social media account to avail a loan, would you share it?
No, I don’t believe in online sharing. Sometimes it gets misused so I won’t share it with anybody.

To further cross their statements we asked the participants to choose from two different types of loans based on their varying data requirements and captured their thoughts.

Joseph doesn’t mind sharing extra ID proofs or in exchange for a lower interest rate but:

“I don’t believe in lower interest rates because banks are not believable. How do I trust banks will give lower interest?”

When Joseph had applied for a home loan, he had to share his bank statement for a year. Now he is unwilling to share his bank statement for a longer duration (till the loan is repaid) even if it gets him a lower interest rate.

He doesn’t mind the bank sharing his personal and financial details with third parties for a lower interest rate.

Goals and aspirations

Joseph’s short term goals are to plan finances for his younger son’s education and invest in gold or land.
He had dreamt of owning a house, which he has now achieved.

What are your retirement plans from the perspective of your personal finances?
We are saving some amounts in chits and LIC insurance. When they mature, we will invest them in a bank and live on the interest. We can’t trust our kids or the future, so we want to be independent.

Credits

Interview by Soumitro Datta
Analysed and written by Dhriti Agarwal
Edited by Prajna Nayak & Dharmesh Ba

Future of Data Sharing:

‘Future of Data Sharing’ aims at designing a playbook for consented sharing to enable financial services in India. The objective of this research is to develop a design toolkit with the upcoming public infrastructure Account Aggregators as the main theme in focus. The toolkit will host resources and assets around designing better user experiences for data sharing and data portability.

Future of Data Sharing is sponsored by Facebook and executed in collaboration with D91 Labs, DICE, Parallel Labs, TTC Labs and Sahamati.

Future of Data Sharing by D91 Labs is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0

About TTC Labs:

TTC Labs is a cross-industry effort to create innovative design solutions that put people in control of their privacy. Initiated and supported by Facebook, and built on collaboration, the movement has grown to include hundreds of organisations, including major global businesses, startups, civic organisations and academic institutions.

Look up our Research Series

About the Research

This documentation is a result of the in-person interview, along with the participants’ consent. The interviews might be conducted in their native languages and translated to English in the best possible way to reach a large audience.

Disclaimer: The identities of people and places in this documentation have been changed to honour the privacy of the participants.

About D91 Labs

This research was executed and documented by D91 labs. D91 labs is an open-source initiative by setu.co to help Bharat build great fintech products. We organise and publish user research, insights, and frameworks for fintech in India. Please follow us on medium for more exciting stories and insights on Bharat.

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