Behind The Spine: Episode 23 Transcript
Reflections On Lockdown: 6 months on with Christian Hunt
Hi, I’m Mark Heywood. This is Behind the Spine, a podcast which deconstructs genre and narrative and finds learning opportunities for writers in the most unlikely of places.
There have been these little moments where you just: ‘Did that really happen?’ Let’s pick one example: Trump telling people to inject themselves with bleach.”
Now, I know that last week I said that this week’s episode would be a highlights reel of some of the key moments from the whole series, and I promise you that we will do that. But today, instead, we have a bonus episode for you. Series one of Behind the Spine is coming to a close, and it’s coming at a rather interesting time. When we first began this podcast back in April, the world had just gone into lockdown. Panic buyers had cleared the shelves of toilet paper, and we were only allowed out of the house for a couple of hours a day. Back then, we were pondering over how the world would look in the next six months; whether the pandemic would bring out the good or bad in humanity, and whether we’d be living in a new normal. So, with six months of hindsight, we have the perfect opportunity to reflect — and who better to do this with than the man who kicked off the show by discussing the complexities of human behaviour during this crazy time. Today, then, we welcome back human risk and behavioural science expert, Christian Hunt.
Chapter 1: A Convenient Narrative
When we first spoke to Christian, he suggested a number of ways in which our behaviour would change during lockdown, and as the reality of life under lock and key has played out, we can see that he was pretty much entirely correct. Are we really that predictable? For example, he said our view of the minor character was shifting; that we’d pay greater respect to the often overlooked members of society: nurses, delivery, drivers, etc.. He also said that we’d look unfavourably on those seeking to profiteer from the chaos. And, as people flouted the rules even in the early days of lockdown, he said that we’d continue to rebel because human beings don’t like being told what to do. On that last point, it seems clear now that Christian really did have us pegged from the start.
Christian: I think it’s really interesting because, on the face of it, I would agree with you that we’ve got lots of examples of people not doing what they’re told to do. On the other hand, let’s not forget that we tend not to see the stories about the people that are being compliant. We’ve got a lot of narrative out there about students going back to university being badly behaved, we’ve got all kinds of stuff, but that’s the stuff that makes the news. Let’s not forget the fact that there are a ton of people doing precisely what’s been asked of them, who are behaving responsibly. But that’s not a media story, and therefore, doesn’t get the focus. So we tend to focus on those exceptions. But you’re absolutely right, those exceptions are very, very clear, and we’re seeing some really interesting examples of people really not liking to be told what to do.
Mark: Yes. “Human being does what is asked of he or she,” is not really a story, is it? We’re not interested in those sorts of stories. We want to see news stories of people partying in groups when they shouldn’t be. Is that because we can then comfort ourselves that we are doing the right thing, that we’re right and they’re wrong, or is it just that the counter-narrative is always more interesting?
Christian: Well, we’re trained to look for the exception. If you think about the way you navigate the world on a day-to-day basis, there will be things that you notice. You move to a new area, you’ll notice things that, after a while, become normal to you, because we’re trained to look for things that are different and exceptional. That makes perfect sense from a survival perspective because you want to focus on things that present a threat to you. Things that you’re comfortable and familiar with, you can handle, so we tend to switch off those things. So, you buy a new car, you’ll suddenly notice loads of people who are driving the same car in a way that you wouldn’t have done before because it’s become more salient to you. But after a while, that’ll fall away.
So, I think there is a sort of natural survival piece that says, “I’ll focus on bits of the environment that I don’t recognise that are unfamiliar, that I need to get used to.” That, I think, starts a piece that says, “We’re always on the lookout for things that are outside the norm.” That’s why we focus on strange behaviours and abnormal behaviours, because it’s not something we recognise, and it grabs our attention. I think that the media plays off that, and says, “I need to bring something that’s different, and something that’s a bit unusual, and something that will pique people’s sense of curiosity.” Because you’re not going to say, “Oh, there’s some people wearing a mask, doing exactly what they’ve been asked.” That’s perfectly normal. Here’s someone that’s not doing it. “Well, what are they up to? Why are they doing that? What’s going on there?” That piques our natural sense of curiosity.
Mark: One of the things that’s been fascinating is the shift that we’ve had over the last few months. We started in pretty much total lockdown after a brief period of people going into self-isolation. Then the shutters came down; we were all told to stay inside for several weeks. Then we were allowed out for a bit of exercise. And then, gradually, over the summer, the restrictions were lifted. We’re now seeing a slight reversal of that — we’re moving in the opposite direction. The science, we talk about that a lot, is doing pretty much what we expected it to do, and the cases are going back up. But in the face of what is obvious, in terms of the science and what we’re being told, there is a massive community, larger than I was certainly expecting, that just seems to not believe that anything is wrong and this is all made up. There’s a lot of COVID conspiracy theories, aren’t there?
Christian: Yes. I think that comes… and you’re right. It seems astonishingly large numbers of people think this is all made up, it’s a game to control us, and that the government is up to… again, don’t forget that thing I said before around those are the people that you’ll hear about. And of course, you and I will talk about, “Did you see that amazing story with this lunatic theory?” It stands out, and so we’ll talk about it more, so we attach far more prominence to it probably than it ought to have, because again, we’re not talking about the people that don’t think that.
So, I caveat all the things in that, same with that general piece. But you’re right, it’s astonishing, even accepting the point I’ve just made, that so many people seem to follow this thing. What’s been interesting is we’ve seen protests, so this isn’t just a case of some random person ranting on Twitter. We’ve literally seen, I don’t want to say thousands or tens of thousands, but decent chunks of people going out to protest in public places. They’ve had to make an effort to go out and do this thing, so there’s a sense of commitment to it. So, you’re right, there is some volume there that is somewhat unexpected, and there is a passion to that viewpoint because you wouldn’t go out on a protest if you didn’t think there was something behind it.
I think the reason for this is that people are looking for answers, and COVID is one of those things that feels really complicated, difficult, challenging. So, if somebody can give me a nice, easy answer, which is: here’s a baddie. You can always come out of the movies here, right? Here’s someone evil trying… I mean, Doctor Evil from Austin Powers, this is the sort of thing he would do, right? Come up with this killer virus — but it’s all a big joke, and we’re being laughed at because we’re being massively manipulated. I think it’s a really convenient narrative for people that want that convenient narrative, and who maybe don’t want to exercise critical thinking, aren’t used to it, whatever. And you could sort of see a world where, if you see enough of this stuff, maybe you do think you are the odd one.
I think this is really interesting, where things like social media come into play and the echo chamber piece. If you start to see enough of these things and you don’t have the capabilities or the counter-narrative, or you don’t think to challenge it, or you quite enjoy the fact that there’s this conspiracy, it makes life nice and easy to explain. Then it’s an easy thing to grab hold of. There’s been a lot of parallels drawn to 1930s Germany. And I kind of think it’s been interesting to see how can people think like that? Well, you go, “Well, actually there are small baby steps along the way.” I don’t think they wake up one morning and go, “I’ve been convinced there’s a conspiracy theory.” Drip feed enough “evidence” and you can get them there.
Mark: Is it the case that in a world in which we feel that we have little control over what’s going on in terms of the world around us, but in particular with COVID, the denial of it is almost an act of trying to wrestle back some form of control? If you refuse to accept that it exists, that is in a way you doing something potentially proactive to get some kind of control back. I’m just trying to understand the mind of a denier. Why do people feel the need to say, “Well, quite clearly it doesn’t exist,” when quite clearly it does? Are we just obsessed by feeding narratives that aren’t there? Or is it because “man thinks world is round” is not a story? Is that what we’re saying?
Christian: I think it comes back to a natural sense of curiosity. In order to propagate the species and protect ourselves, we need to understand what’s going on. If you think about small children, they’re very curious about the world. We, uniquely as a species, have this environment where we allow children to grow up. So if you look at the animal kingdom, most animals, the kids are self-sufficient after a very short period of time. We have this protective environment, and we allow children to be incredibly curious in ways that we beat out of them in adulthood. But as kids, we want to know what’s going on. And to a certain extent, we have this need to know what’s going on so that we can protect ourselves. And that’s why people that look different to us, unfamiliar environments feel uncomfortable, and we want to suss out what’s going on. But working that out is hard work and complicated, and isn’t it much easier for us from a cognitive perspective if someone comes up with a ready-made solution, that sounds sensible that we can buy into it?
And so you can see that, to a certain extent, there are some cults that create very simple narratives for people to follow. And it’s a lot easier if you can buy into that, to just go along with it, because then you don’t have to expend any energy thinking about things whatsoever. Somebody else has done the hard work for you, it all makes sense, and you can go back to being incredibly cognitively lazy, which we all are, right? There’s no doubt. The brain is a huge consumer of energy because it’s hard work to think, so if we can avoid thinking, that’s really, really powerful. And there’s plenty of scientific evidence that we use our brains as little as possible. So I think this is just simply a case of saying there are people out there for whom it is relatively easy to follow along. I don’t want to call them gullible, but they buy a storyline.
And of course, the people pedalling this stuff can be very convincing. And if you don’t have the wherewithal to challenge, and you’re not in an environment that’s used to challenging these things, and imagine everybody else in group or your family believes something, you kind of don’t want to be the odd one out so you go along with it. So there’s a strength in numbers piece. And I think, of course, the natural way that we try and deal with that when we see people “falling for” these stories is that we try and persuade them. And of course they’ve not been swayed by logical arguments, they’ve been swayed by emotional arguments. And so you then end up with a situation where people double down on their beliefs because they feel under attack and therefore it is, again, it’s easier to circle around with the gang that you’ve got.
And so I think it’s really interesting that people get into these things in emotional ways and they’re kind of, “Ah, it’s an answer. It feels good to have an answer to things.” We don’t like leaving things out and going, “Well, why is that?” We like to know; we’re curious. And so then when you’re in that bubble where people are telling you that this is the answer, this is the right way, when you get attacked and challenged for it… and of course, I think there’s something really interesting about the polarised world at the moment, where there is much more doubling down into groups and beliefs and logic doesn’t work and nor does sort of calling people stupid, so I think it’s easy to get into and then it becomes a self-preserving piece.
So I think it’s not a logical set of arguments, and what your question presupposes is that sort of, “I don’t understand the logic they’ve used that gets them to think like that.” And my response would be, I don’t think there is necessarily much logic. I think it’s a gut feel. “This feels like a really nice place to hang out because then I’ve had my question answered.” And if I think it’s a government conspiracy, then I can just simply say, “Oh, well, I can explain anything with that.” It’s sort of if things improve, they’ve decided they don’t want to control us quite as much. If they double down on the sort of lockdown piece, they’re getting more aggressive. And of course that’s why these people stand up and say these things and go on protests because they feel very, very strongly about it, because the thing that’s got them there isn’t logic, it’s emotion.
Chapter 2: Beyond Parody
During our conversation with Professor Lewis Dartnell about the pandemic, we referenced Rutger Bregman’s book Humankind: A Hopeful History, which suggests that humans are innately good. This pandemic has given us the perfect chance to test that theory. To Christian’s point, the stories of compliance are obviously underreported, but there have also been plenty of actions to counter the innately good narrative. In fact, some of what’s unfolded has seemed so bizarre and farfetched, it wouldn’t even ever cross the mind of a writer. So despite his firm grasp on human behaviour in general, is there anything that’s surprised Christian in all of this?
Christian: I think people have demonstrated the full range of human capability. So we’ve seen some incredible humanitarian acts of kindness, and again, that stuff doesn’t get reported. So it’s not particularly interesting that so-and-so has looked after their elderly neighbours really well and so what we’ll see is the sort of the parties in Cancun and the students going crazy. So we’ve seen all of those things happening and we’ve seen every gamut of it. I think what has astonished me is the resilience and adaptability of people. It’s predictable that we will do that, because as a species we’ve managed to do that, but actually we’ve been generally pretty good at these things and people have been really pushed to the limits.
I know you and I have had a relatively charmed existence, right? Because we are financially relatively secure; we have all the sort of basic needs that we want. So it’s less of a kind of challenge than people that are living in very cramped conditions where they’re genuinely worried about their finances. And I think we haven’t seen mass rioting, or at least not on the COVID issue, but what I think is interesting is that we have seen some really extreme examples in terms of leadership, where I think we’ve seen some brilliant bits of leadership that I wasn’t expecting to see. I mean, some politicians have done phenomenally well. If I look at the clarity of leadership from somewhere like New Zealand — and of course there’s this narrative of female leaders doing particularly well, I have yet to find the exception to that — and then we’ve seen some male leaders doing particularly badly. And so I have been probably not surprised by the general direction, but there have been these little moments where you just, “Did that really happen? That was astonishing.” Let’s pick one example: Trump telling people to inject themselves with bleach.
And I think we’ve gone beyond parody in some respects. I mean, I really pity some of the sort of the comedians because if you’re trying to write something like The Thick of It, you’re going to really struggle in this sort of environment because it’s gone way beyond where you’d be, but we’ve seen some fascinating… I actually think there’s been some amazing creativity on display. And I love some of the people like Sarah Cooper, who, if you had said to me six months ago, “Well, there’s going to be someone, and they’re going to basically use Trump’s voice and they’re going to sort of act it out,” I would have thought that was a strange dynamic. So, I’d like to focus on those aspects of it and say that there’s been tremendous braveries, but I think from just from a creative perspective, I’ve loved watching that stuff because I think people have had to innovate and do interesting things in that space. I think we’ve seen some really amazing business models that have come out of it.
So I think humans’ adaptability is probably the thing that I want to focus on, rather than worrying too much about, “Hasn’t person X or person Y been awful?” Because one of the things I think is, we all think we’ve had a shared experience but we haven’t. And you and I are a relatively similar demographic; we’ve had very, very different experiences and different approaches to it. It’s been sort of fascinating to assume that we’ve all been through a common experience. We haven’t. Every single person has had their own experiences and their own stories.
And so when I look at the totality where here, I think we’re probably in some respects in a much better position than I thought we’d been because I thought society might degenerate a little bit. On the other hand, I think there’s been some awful stories out there as well. So I don’t think I necessarily want to conclude that I’ve learned a massive amount around one individual aspect of human behaviour, but there’s just been all of these examples of things and lots of individual stories that have made me smile and cry. And sometimes both of at same time.
Mark: The point you make about parody would be an interesting one for the audience of writers and writing professionals. Spitting Image is back this autumn after a pretty lengthy hiatus, it’s not been on our screens for ages. For listeners who may not know what it is, it is a satirical parody using puppets who are pretending to be famous people. It was on for many years, it was a big hit in the ’80s and early ’90s. It’s now back. At first, I was thinking, “Wow, what a great thing that is. What a great opportunity.” I’m kind of really glad I’m not a writer on it to be honest, because the point you made is right. I think we’re beyond satire and parody at the moment, just because you couldn’t make up stuff as good as the stuff that’s happening. Not just in everyday life, but on our politicians, our government, politicians all over the world.
That press conference where he said pretty much to his chief scientific advisor, “I think there’s something we can do with lights, getting it inside people.” Actively encouraging people to consider injecting beach. If I’d have written that, you’d have gone, “Look, maybe it’s time to have another day job. That’s just crazy.” I’m really glad I’m not on that show, because I think it’s really, really hard. I wonder whether are we redefining satire? We might be because we just don’t know where the line is. The line’s shifted so much over the last few months.
Christian: Yes. And that’s a really interesting example, right? You wouldn’t put that in satire for two reasons. One is, it’s so absurd and so ridiculous that people would go, “Well, you’ve pushed that, you’ve taken it too far.” But the second thing is you wouldn’t from a health and safety perspective, right? And so there are sorts of limits of decency of comedy, of plausibility, all of which you’ve been breached by the real world that you would struggle with in the fictional comedic world. And so I think we just have to find a different way to respond to this. And that’s why I’m really taken by the things that we’re seeing on TikTok and social media.
And so Michael Spicer’s The Room Next Door is a way of dealing with that where he’s saying, “Well, how can I…” I mean, it’s interesting because he’s helping to explain that. Because there’s a nice narrative there. The reason we’ve got this weird stuff being said is that there’s someone’s whispering this to him, right? I quite liked that, and I don’t know if you saw his recent piece where he’s kind of taken that even further where there’s the room next door which is him kind of briefing the politician, and he’s discovered there’s a second room next door. I don’t know if you saw this.
Mark: No I’ve not seen this.
Christian: He basically is briefing the politician, and then he hears his own voice, and the politician is listening to the other voice like, “There’s another room next door.” And is taking this to sort of Twilight Zone territory. I think in part to stop himself running out of material, but also because it’s an acknowledgement that the world really has gotten so weird that even his little construct doesn’t make sense. So, I don’t know. I just think it’s going to be amazing to see how people handle this piece. And I think there’s been some interesting shifts around. If you look at Trevor Noah, he has taken his show to a really serious place. He’s kind of moving into John Oliver territory and then some. And I think we’re seeing a lot of people… the boundaries of satire and serious commentary are getting blurred somewhat.
So I wonder whether the answer to your question might not be the genres aren’t going to be so tightly defined. And we don’t seem to have an issue with kind of combining serious political comment with a little bit of comedy in a way that you might have differentiated before. And so I see a lot of those shifts there, and that might be in response to the thing you’re outlining, which is, “This is so weird and so strange. And I can’t just like…” And I think there’s a lot more. We’ve seen a lot more social issues picking up so Black Lives Matter being the most obvious example, but we also had things like exploitation of workers. So some of the sort of delivery drivers and these zero hours contracts and how much are we paying our key workers?
And I think we talked before around the nature of who’s important in society shifted massively. And I wonder with all of those sorts of things whether we need art forms to respond in kind and to look differently at some of these topics. And of course, I think the lovely thing about it is there are no rules here. And the nice thing that we’ve seen, particularly with some of the creativity online is that you don’t have to think about, “Will this fly with a television audience? Someone’s got to commission this.” Because all of the breakout hits haven’t been kind of done with a, “I’m going to sell this.” People have just done it. And people have had the wherewithal and the broadcast ability to be able to do that.
So I think in a way you may be asking a question that’s very, it’s not necessarily pre-COVID, but I mean it’s pre-technology that is asking about, “How does this particular box respond?” Maybe that box is no longer valid as we move to some of the broadcast models that we’ve got now that people are allowed to do all sorts of things and break traditional rules in a way that you wouldn’t have thought of doing before.
Chapter 3: Breaking the Rules
Rule breaking has been a firm fixture in the narrative of the pandemic for a multitude of reasons. Clearly, you have the negative side of things with conspiracy theorists believing the government is trying to control us, or that 5G masts are causing the virus. But you also have positive rule breaking, creativity is flourishing. Not just in what content is arriving on our screens, but in the various mediums that it’s showing up on. You have bands performing live to audiences on streaming services like Twitch, orchestras delivering masterpieces over Zoom and stunt men and women fighting each other whilst in different locations. Ground is being broken. So could we see a permanent shift away from tried and tested methods?
Christian: Yes. As you were talking, I was sort of thinking about the way the arts have shifted over time. So you had very strict rules about what you were and weren’t allowed to do. And if you go right back to paintings, I can’t think of the technical terms, but you have to respect certain rules about content and how it’s presented, and then I always find it fascinating as we’re going through particularly the massive museums, I’m thinking sort of the Louvre-type size of museums where you can really start to track this stuff. And then you get people like Monet doing what now would be considered relatively small fry, but at the time, “Outrageous! Who are these people to do these things?” And it’s always been somebody else’s rules around this stuff. And I think we’ve seen that particularly if you think about a book or a play or a TV show, it’s all defined by somebody else’s terms. So what you can do in the theatre used to be constrained by rules around what you could do, because there wasn’t the physical space and you couldn’t do certain things. And then we started to invent things like rotating stages and maybe in the round. And there were the sort of things that… and some of them came back from way back when, but there was this shift.
But even television started to have its own rules. And fans of Alan Partridge will recognise the power of the commissioning editor. And then you’ve even seen with a comic character like that, he’s branched out into podcasting. So there’s a sort of example of a fictional character embracing it, but the rules are starting to change and we can all become our own producers, content generators, writers, whatever. And I think it’s just obvious now, we’re hugely in control and we don’t need permission from people — either sort of legal permission all literal permission, because you need to get onto their channel — so we’ve all got that ability now. And I think that people sort of waking up, they go, I’m allowed to do these things. There’s still rules around sort of decency rules, but beyond that sort of piece, you can pretty much do what you like, and I think that’s really interesting, liberating.
And what I find fascinating is we’re putting creative power’s in the hands of younger people in a way that would never have happened before. So you would have had to serve your time before you would get published, and so you had student drama where there was a sort of opportunity, but it never went any further. Now you can have a breakout here aged… I mean, I don’t know how young you want to take it. But you’ve got that platform. And so I think we’re seeing a real democratisation of creativity in a way that I just think it’s fantastic. And we’re throwing the rule book out the window, and that’s everything from the length of time — so I’ve seen some great things that are sort of 20 seconds long.
There’s some stuff I’ve watched online that you’re not going to get me sitting down for three, four, five hours — well, you will actually, if it’s incredibly engaging. I just think it’s an amazing time, and this is why I think what you’re doing here, really reflecting on what inspirations people take. We’ve always taken inspiration from real life, to replicate things, with soap opera being the ultimate example. But I think there’s just this tremendous opportunity to go completely crazy and do interesting things that you would never have contemplated doing, partly because I think the audience is there as well as you’ve pointed out. We accept the fact that people do this. I was shocked last night when I logged onto Amazon Prime and I could watch a two-and-a-half-minute movie.
Now, I’d never associated that with it, and I view Amazon Prime as a sort of network, a formal… you know, that it goes through a process in a way that YouTube, like, anything goes on, but Amazon, they had embraced the short, and I thought, “This is really interesting.” I think they’re going to get more like YouTube and bring more things in, and the value add will be as much in the curation of these things as a barrier to entry piece. So I think there’s all these interesting trends happening, some of which are going to lead to some fascinating pieces. And I really hope your listeners grab this opportunity, because it isn’t just the creative community thing that they can do it. It’s if the audience is willing to accept it.
Mark: And a good example is a show that’s currently on Netflix that started on YouTube, and it’s being brought back for a third season. It’s a show called Cobra Kai, which creatively shouldn’t work. I’d love to know who was brave enough to say yes to that, because what it was basically doing was taking the Karate Kid, following those two characters decades later, but flipping the narrative, and the whole show is from Johnny’s perspective, not Daniel’s perspective. It’s so good on many, many levels, but one of them is that it brings a new perspective to the original movie because you look at that now and go, “Holy crap, if we had only seen it from Johnny’s perspective, that’s a completely different experience.” And of course, the joy of it is, if you watched Karate Kid as a kid, and now you watch it as an adult, you do get a completely different perspective.
Now that was pre-COVID. That was very, very brave. That’s simply the way that you’re telling the story. In terms of the format that you’re using to tell the story, there are so many opportunities for people, but I do think… never has Scorsese’s line, “Don’t worry about the rules just get on and do it,” been more true. You can create a new set of content for yourself.
Christian, we’re going to leave it there. Thank you very much. Just your point about Alan Partridge. This is the end of our first series. We have been recommissioned for a second series, so we will be back, and one of my early guests will be the head of the V&A museum, so we’ll make that point to him about the curation of space, the way that galleries have moved and changed over time and what he thinks is the future for that kind of space.
We’d love to have you back during series two at some point, hopefully, if the world is not burning by then, but in the meantime, Christian, it’s been great. Thanks very much.
Conclusion
Massive thank you, then, to Christian Hunt for joining me on the podcast again, and to recap, what have we learned?
When one side of a narrative is missing, our perception of reality can be skewed. Like the musical Wicked, or more recently the show Cobra Kai, flipping the narrative, seeing the world through the villain’s point of view can be a powerful reminder that right and wrong is all about perspective. Similarly, just because the pandemic is a global phenomenon doesn’t mean each of us is having a shared experience. We’re all going through something totally unique depending on our circumstances, and the same should go for the characters living through the major events of your story.
Human beings are trained to look for the exception. We don’t want to hear stories of all the people who are complying with lockdown rules. We like the outliers. Utilise the unexpected to pique the curiosity of your readers. Serious political comment is being combined with comedy to a greater extent than ever before, largely because of the political figures that are doing and saying the most bizarre things. Take this opportunity to stretch your imagination, to be more bold with your comedy. After all, if you think that your joke is too absurd, remember that the president of one of the most powerful countries in the world suggested people inject bleach to combat COVID.
And finally, this technology democratises creativity, the industry has had an opportunity to break ground. In fact, with filming restrictions and limited access to theatres and cinemas, it’s utterly essential that it does. Explore new ways to share your story. And while you’re at it, as humanity’s perception of what’s truly important continues to shift, use this time to reflect more deeply on minor characters.
Thanks for listening. I’m Mark Heywood. And if you’d like to get on touch we’re on Twitter and Facebook is @BehindTheSpine. New episodes are released weekly. Please like us, review us on Apple podcasts, it really does help.
Next week there is a final, final wrap up of this series, featuring a series of clips highlighting the best moments and the strongest narratives from the podcast so far.
Goodbye for now, stay safe and keep writing.
To listen to this episode of the podcast, visit the link below: https://behindthespine.podbean.com/e/reflections-on-lockdown-6-months-later-with-christian-hunt/
