For the last two weeks, I have been listening to Michael’s new initiative called “The Liturgists Podcast” (TLP), “where faith, science, and art collide and we live in-between the chaos.” In this article, I wanted to bring out a couple of disturbing things that I noticed. Between the two episodes that they have made so far, I have decently enjoyed the first half, but have been horribly troubled with the second half.

This past week, TLP focused on Michael’s current issues with WorldMag article about his stance on creation and evolution. I was glad for this episode since the tension has come from the article which could of been set biasely against Gungor and edited to keep people from hearing the quotes (that were published) in context.

You can listen to the episode here. In fact, I would recommend you to listen to it before reading on. That way you can judge for yourselves is my concerns are in context and legitimate.

Where is the theology expert?

On TLP, Michael and his co-hosts have a lot of fun. It’s what makes the podcast decently fun and enjoyable to listen to. One of their current co-hosts is (nicknamed) Science Mike. In the first episode, Mike talks about how he grew up in a typical evangelical setting and then became an atheist who loved science and has recently returned to Christianity.

Mike makes this episode neat. By neat, I don’t mean true, just engaging. You can tell that the man knows what he is talking about. Mike didn’t just read a couple articles about evolution before the podcast started. No, Mike lovesscience (Michael also has a passion for it, just less studied). While I may not agree with his or Michael’s stance of evolution and creation, it was enjoyable to listen to. It’s thrilling to listen to someone who cares about science speak on it.

Likewise, it’s thrilling to listen to Michael and the team talk about art. You can tell that creativity and the artistic realm is something that they are passionate about and are passionate for the church to be more involved in. Michael has some great experience in creativity and his co-hosts bring a lot of knowledge and examples to the table when the subject matter turns to the artistic.

However, when it comes to theology, the podcast is left wanting. I consider Michael the artistic “expert”, Science Mike the science expert, but there is no one who has any true, orthodox, and deep theological training. No professor. No theologian. In the second half of the podcast when they deal about faith, they talk about what they think and feel concerning our faith and Christianity. There is no quoting from the Bible (unless it’s done in a way to prove a point). They don’t even mention any of the church fathers or their writings. This ends up leaving the podcast greatly unbalanced on the side of humanistic thoughts.

They don’t understand the implications in their theology, yet they teach it.

At one point in episode two’s talk on faith, they said that since Adam and Noah were not literal people (rather they were a poetic story), Jesus was mistaken in talking about them like that. To be fair, most of their argument was more “how do we know Jesus didn’t think Noah was a myth, but told the story because the Jews at that time knew it was real?” After that they mention, “even if Jesus incarnate was wrong about Noah being real, I don’t think that messes anything up.”

Anyone who knows anything about doctrine knows that this is simply untrue. Because they don’t have anyone truly learned in Christian orthodoxy, they are ignorant of the implications to much of what they are saying. In listening to the past couple episodes and reading many of Gungor’s writings, I feel they are becoming (if not already are) a part of the emergent church. Rob Bell is a heavy influence in their lives and it shows. James 3 says:

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. (James 3:1 ESV)

Teaching truths about God is a very serious matter and should not be taken lightly. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, then don’t talk about it. These kind of conversations open the door to so much error. I will not be surprised if they soon start talking about how you can live an active gay lifestyle and still be a Christian. That’s where these ignorant “conversations” lead: to justify our own depravity.

Not only is the conversation ignorant of the other side, the other side is never (so far) represented. I don’t agree with evolution or old-earth creationists, but I enjoy seeing all the arguments presented such as the Counterpoint series has been doing for certain issues in the church. However, in TLP, the creationist view is barely brought up and when it is, it is not argued, especially from a theological standpoint. So not only are these conversations dangerous in where they lead, they are also shallow on how they stand.

They take science as a fact, but leave theology as a theory.

Much like Rob Bell’s most recent book pushes, they talk much about God’s mystery and unknowingness. Throughout the episode, Science Mike pushes that “math is the only thing we can prove is true”, that science is something that is indisputable thanks to all the testing and evidence we have. However, when they start talking about theology, God is suddenly unknownable. Even the revelation He has given us in His Word has been (supposely) misinterpreted by all the church because it was made (solely) for the time it was written in. Like many liberal Christian teachers, we are told that we cannot have complete faith in the interpretation of the Bible, particulary as it has been understood for 2,000 years.

Among other things, this undermines the authority and sufficiency of the Bible. I agree that having faith is not opposed to believing in science, however science is not allowed the final word in this debate. As Romans 3:4 says, “let God be true even though every man be a liar.” As Christians, our final authority is the Word of God.

Final thoughts.

After listening to TLP, I listened to today’s episode of “5 Minutes In Church History”, one of my favorite podcasts. He talked about J. Gresham Machen and the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy that was taking place at the time. He quoted something from Machen’s book, “Christianity and Liberalism”, that made me think of this entire issue:

“Inevitably the question arises whether the opinions of such men can ever be normative for men of the present day. In other words, whether first-century religion can ever stand in company with twentieth-century science. That’s the question. Is Christianity outdated? Is it a religion that belongs to ancient times and to ancient peoples? We are now a couple centuries into the enlightenment. We are in the industrial age of the twentieth century. We have twentieth-century science. We have unlocked the universe. We know so much more than those generations that have preceded us. Is Scripture still authoritative for us? Is Christianity still meaningful for us in the tenets, the doctrines of Christianity? Are they meaningful? However the question may be answered, it presents a serious problem to the modern church. There are two ways to look at this. One is to, just again, be driven by the pressures of the day. The other is to be driven by Scripture.”

The truth of the matter is that in this collision of science, art, and faith that TLP is trying to bring about needs a lot more faith, particularly faith that is driven by the scripture.