HBO Vice Full Interview Transcript with Mike Cernovich

The mainstream media edits content, journalist Mike Cernovich posts the full interviews.

HBO and Vice News recently released a heavily-edited special report on Mike Cernovich. Cernovich has released the full interview here, and you can read a transcription of the interview below.

Isobel Yeung: Basically I think we’ll just go through a little bit of your history, a little bit of how you got to where you are now, your inspiration to do what you’re doing, journalism and fake news and the vision of where this is all going.

Mike Cernovich: Okay.

Isobel Yeung: Does that sound good.

Mike Cernovich: Yeah.

Isobel Yeung: Cool. You used to describe yourself, you had a blog where it was predominately about how to get laid and what juices to use for yourself. What turned you from juice and sex to politics?

Mike Cernovich: It was more about lifestyle design too. It wasn’t merely getting laid, it was more of lifestyle. A, how to organize your life, a lot of financial tips, a lot of general lifestyle advice. An edgier version of what Esquire used to be. Esquire used to be a very cool magazine. Used to be the kind of magazine you would read and learn stuff about life. Then it became just another social justice warrior type of publication. It was more of an edgier alternative to traditional men’s lifestyle magazines like GQ, Esquire. Which is why it’s interesting when people characterize things a certain way. Well it’s just about getting laid … Ultimately all of life is about reproduction.

Isobel Yeung: What turned you from lifestyle to politics?

Mike Cernovich: Great question. I actually avoided politics for a long time because I think a lot of people who focused on politics maybe, their own lives were out of control so instead of focusing on their own life they would become distracted so I thought it was very much a worthless endeavor. Moreover I didn’t see a difference between Barack Obama, John McCain, Mitt Romney, George W. Bush. They were all one and the same. Big banks, they want to support Wall Street, they want more wars. I’m an anti-war person. That would’ve been a waste of my time to really go … I really want Mitt Romney to win versus Obama. Why? Because we can have another war, kill a bunch more people in the Middle East, bomb a bunch more people, bail out banks, give more money to Wall Street. For me there is no reason in me being involved.

Isobel Yeung: Until Trump came along.

Mike Cernovich: Exactly.

Isobel Yeung: What was it about Trump that changed your mind?

Mike Cernovich: He’s a wrecking ball. He came in and he didn’t want, he spoke out against the wars in the Middle East, spoke out against the bailouts of Wall Street. I thought okay, I view the system as being broken, that Republicans and Democrats are ultimately the same, why don’t we get a guy there to just break things and see what shake sup after that.

Isobel Yeung: How is it you’ve been able to build your brand?

Mike Cernovich: These are hard questions to answer because in life you got to be at the right place at the right time with the right skills and I was somebody who didn’t really know much about tech but the skill I have is not getting dragged down by people, the negativity and stuff, and also conflict, which is big on the internet. Call-out culture is really big on the internet. People call the left, “Oh my god, Kathy Griffin, severed head, ISIS.” That’s call out culture, the left has been doing that for years. “Oh my god, this guy tweeted this thing, that’s so racist, they’re misogynistic, let’s all call that guy out.”

This kind of call-out culture had arisen and somebody like me who enjoys the rough and tumble of it all said “I’ll do call-out culture too but I’ll just do it from a different perspective, different vantage point” and that has always been hot.

Isobel Yeung: You are obviously aggressively pro-Trump. What kind of impact do you think you had on the election?

Mike Cernovich: Impossible to measure but in terms of media coverage a lot of the stuff that actually damaged Hillary Clinton came from me and people who follow me on social media and my corner of the Internet.

Isobel Yeung: You take pride in that?

Mike Cernovich: Oh 100%, amazing.

Isobel Yeung: That was kind of what got you involved in politics, it was this desire to make sure that anti Hillary Clinton news was what was circulating, right?

Mike Cernovich: Yeah 100%. I wanted to stop Hillary Clinton. If Bernie had run, if the election had been Bernie versus Donald Trump, I would’ve just been like whatever. There’s things I liked about Bernie, things I liked about Trump. I was more of a anti Hillary, anti establishment type of person. I also wanted to stop the GOP from putting in Jeb Bush, another Bush. In the primary I said we don’t want another Bush, another person who wants to bomb things in the Middle East and bail out Wall Street and protect the big money and big military complex. We had to stop them and then Rand Paul, I would’ve been for Rand Paul, I would’ve been for Ron Paul but they would never get elected because they were too nice. You have to be really, I don’t know for a lack of a better word, you would have to be willing to be mean in this media environment, specially if you are on the right.

Isobel Yeung: What about now, how much influence do you think you have and how much of a difference you make to people’s lives in terms of how many consume the media and what sort in how they view the world.

Mike Cernovich: I’m recognized in public all the time. I remember the first time before I did anything in politics. People are like “Are you Mike Cernovich from Danger & Play, I read your blog.” I got recognized a lot in public from my blog, before I was even big on anything on Twitter, before anything. I was like oh it’s cool, I’m recognized in public, just a guy with a blog, that’s kind of weird, what a weird world. That happened more and more often. Now it’s all the time. Costco. The fan base has changed too where I was at Costco actually and a 65 year old man wanted his picture taken with me. That was kind of cool.

It’s surreal. I’ve always been somebody interested in the big meaning of life, what does it mean to be a person, what does it mean to live a good life. I’ve always sought out novelty and novel experiences.

It’s mind blowing, for a lack of a better word, not that I’m necessarily into the fame aspect, more of “I’m at Costco” and people who are in their 60s and 70s that are reading my stuff and watching my stuff, what a weird word this is. I don’t smoke marijuana, not because I have anything against people who do but because so much mind blowing stuff like that happens every time that it’s kind of like being high all day.

Isobel Yeung: What kind of impact do you think you’re having on how people actually view the world and what kind of news agencies …

Mike Cernovich: That’s how you measure it though. That’s the whole point is it isn’t “Look at me, I’m famous, blah blah blah.” I don’t care about that. It’s more if people recognize me in public and from all ages, races, genders, and everything, that means we’re having a big impact. How many people who write for the New York Times or the Washington Post or maybe who are on some of these cable networks, how often are they out on public recognized all the time. There’s no question that whatever it is I’m doing, my message is getting out.

Isobel Yeung: Who is Mike Cernovich and what do you define yourself as?

Mike Cernovich: I go by journalist, author, filmmaker. But it’s a complicated question.

Isobel Yeung: You described yourself as an American nationalist as well, right?

Mike Cernovich: Yeah, definitely.

Isobel Yeung: Does that mean alt-right?

Mike Cernovich: No, no, no, there’s a big split over the Nazi salute thing so …

Isobel Yeung: You don’t identify with the alt-right?

Mike Cernovich: No, I haven’t been involved with those guys since at least December.

Isobel Yeung: You disavowed the alt-right?

Mike Cernovich: I disavow the Nazi salute bullshit. Come on guys, this is dumb, things like this aren’t going to do good for anybody.

Isobel Yeung: What does it mean for you to be an American nationalist?

Mike Cernovich: That I put the interest and well being of Americans over the interests and well beings of other people of the world. The great example would be a factory job. If a factory leaves America and goes to another country, those people in another country are going to have a job. If you look at things strictly from a globalist perspective you’d say we lost a 1000 American jobs but 1500 people maybe got a job in this other country. You might even say that it’s better.

Whereas I would say no, we want to keep those jobs in America, we want to keep as much wealth and well being of people in America and put that above the interests of the world. Which doesn’t of course not trading with anybody. It’s the same way that you, Isobel, you are Isobel first. You might not think of it that way but in negotiations you want to find a win-win. You’re not trying to be a martyr, you’re trying to think if I’m going to go work with this person or work with this network, I want to find a way that I benefit but also a way that they benefit but in that regard you do have to advocate very very strongly for your own interest what you want out of life and then hopefully the other people, they’re advocating, they’re putting themselves first, and then through negotiations you find a win-win.

Isobel Yeung: How much of your motivation is provocation?

Mike Cernovich: I’m not going to lie, I definitely enjoy it for sure.

Isobel Yeung: Last time I saw you, you said “If there’s nothing happening, make it happen. If you get on a microphone and say Bill Clinton is a rapist which he is, if the crowd reacts, that’s news.” You don’t really care there’s no evidence to any of this stuff, you just want to provoke.

Mike Cernovich: No, so he raped her back on the campaign trail and he’s running for governor. There is a direct accusation on that multiple women, Gina Flowers, accused him of sexual harassment.

Isobel Yeung: You don’t have any hard evidence to suggest.

Mike Cernovich: Testimony.

Isobel Yeung: of what you’re actually saying. You’re saying if it creates a reaction, that’s news.

Mike Cernovich: No, but it’s a truthful statement. There’s evidence.

Isobel Yeung: That’s not what you’re saying. You’re saying if it creates a reaction, that’s news.

Mike Cernovich: It has to be true.

Isobel Yeung: Does it?

Mike Cernovich: For me, yeah, of course.

Isobel Yeung: You do think that’s true.

Mike Cernovich: I don’t make false accusations, of course not.

Isobel Yeung: How much of what you do is provocation?

Mike Cernovich: I get the truth out there in compelling ways, 100%. It’s more about, the truth is the truth. Rhetoric is your means and method of delivering a truth. Rhetoric can be a meme, a video, an article, art, that’s just a method of delivery, of delivering the truth. I’m provocative but what I’m provocative about generally has a truth and indeed even there’s with news, the news media wants to tell the truth but they’re going to edit it. You want to tell the truth, you don’t want to deliberately lie about me. You’re not setting out in the editing room saying how can I lie and fabricate things about Mike Cernovich but editorially you may want to do something provocative and to do that you may focus on some aspects on who I am and what I’ve done, instead of other aspects that may be larger or more relevant and the decision you make as an artist and the decision everybody makes as artists and journalism is art.

Isobel Yeung: Your motto is you use conflict of interest and attention is insolence. At the same time you describe yourself as a national security reporter. Do you see any [inaudible 00:24:22]

Mike Cernovich: No, absolutely no. Conflict is … If right now we hear some scuffle over there and there’s two people out on the road in a fight, everybody here is going to stop what they’re doing and go see what is going on. What is going on? Everybody is going to stop what they’re doing to watch a fight. I got that from Dana White. They’d actually said “Dana White, how did you know UFC would be so successful?” And he goes “If you’re at a hockey game, baseball game, basketball game, it doesn’t matter, if a fight breaks out, everybody is going to go watch the fight.” In a sense that’s what I mean is conflict but because I’m a high conflict person doesn’t mean I’m being dishonest and I’m lying about things. It just means you said this, I think that’s bullshit, and I’m going to tell you why, and it becomes more of a debate.

Isobel Yeung: The fact that you’re creating that conflict and you’re trying to create attention for yourself, you don’t think it detracts from your journalistic skills.

Mike Cernovich: People ultimately have to make their own decisions and their choices about that. An example, we were at the White House press briefing room together. People say in journalism, never make yourself part of the story. By asking a question though of Sean Spicer, aren’t they trying to create conflict? They’re not saying “Secretary Spicer, what did you have for breakfast today? What is president Trump’s favorite color, do he and Melania still send each other love letters?” They’re saying “Trump said this, how do you answer this? Duterte is a dictator and Trump said he’s a good guy, does Trump like dictators?” That’s not conflict.

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 00:25:56] find out something that will tell us something new about the state of America rather than about what color Trump wants to wear.

Mike Cernovich: Is that conflict though?

Isobel Yeung: We’re just trying to understand new information.

Mike Cernovich: You’re creating conflict.

Isobel Yeung: How?

Mike Cernovich: By going at people in a provocative manner. Every question a journalist asked the press secretary, Sean Spicer, not everybody, there are some softballs, the job is to provoke him. I want to provoke Sean Spicer.

Isobel Yeung: I think the job is to get some new information, not to provoke someone.

Mike Cernovich: How do you get new information?

Isobel Yeung: By asking questions.

Mike Cernovich: Should those questions be provocative questions or should they be boring questions?

Isobel Yeung: I don’t think it matters if they’re provocative or boring as long as they tell us something new.

Mike Cernovich: Glen Thrush said “Donald Trump said Duterte is a smart guy, does Trump admire dictators?” That’s a provocative question, right? It’s a conflict question so he’s trying to create conflict there. Ultimately it’s how do you view things and how do you filter things. In that regard everybody in that press briefing room wants to create conflict, they wan tot be provocative. You can say that’s because they want to write the truth and anything else, that’s the way to characterize what they’re doing but ultimately there is no difference between what people, who are traditional media people were doing in the press room and what I do on Twitter and what I would do in a press room but I just apply the mirror differently.

I ask questions to journalists, why are you asking that story, why aren’t you doing that story, why won’t you say this, why don’t you say that? They go [inaudible 00:27:30], it’s our job to ask the questions.

Isobel Yeung: You describe yourself as a Pulitzer worthy journalist. Somewhat big headed some might say but what is it you’ve actually done to prove yourself as a Pulitzer worthy journalist?

Mike Cernovich: The Susan Rice amnesty story was by far the biggest this year and I broke that.

Isobel Yeung: I don’t know if it’s the biggest story this year.

Mike Cernovich: It was bigger.

Isobel Yeung: There where plenty of stories … You published an unverified claim from one person which is hardly Pulitzer worthy journalism.

Mike Cernovich: In what regard?

Isobel Yeung: In the regard that that’s how you broke the story.

Mike Cernovich: I broke the story though. Susan Rice [inaudible 00:28:08], I broke that.

Isobel Yeung: You think that’s Pulitzer worthy journalism?

Mike Cernovich: It’s the biggest story of the year. And I broke the Saudi Arabia …

Isobel Yeung: I don’t think anyone else apart from you is saying it’s the biggest story of the year.

Mike Cernovich: It was huge and then people tried to bury it because it would make Barack Obama look bad because he ordered it and authorized it so the narrative shifts to something else. I don’t think covfefe is a story. I don’t think a story that Trump tweeted C-O-V-F-E-E-E is a story or how that thing is spelled. To me that’s just bullshit. But that’s treated as big hot shit serious news but other stories aren’t. The question is who ultimately gets to decide what is the big story and what is not. It used to be the media got to decide by what they would cover and what they wouldn’t cover. Now I get to decide what’s big or not. If I think something is big, I can make it go big, millions of people agree with, by definition due to the nature of what big is and news is socially constructed, if my social constructs are bigger than other people’s social constructs, then by definition it’s the biggest story.

Isobel Yeung: Obviously you think you’re one of the best journalists in the country if not the world. Do you think that you’re better than the New York Times investigative department?

Mike Cernovich: I’m definitely not the best in the world. Mexico …

Isobel Yeung: That’s pretty humble of you.

Mike Cernovich: … And Turkey. In Mexico they’re getting murdered. Mexico, Turkey, those people are risking their lives. The Mexican journalists who are covering the cartels.

Isobel Yeung: You think you’re one of the best journalists in the country.

Mike Cernovich: In America for sure, yeah, for sure.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think you are better than the New York Times investigative department?

Mike Cernovich: 100%. I have better sources, more aggressive, absolutely. Their stories are all intelligence people that we’re not naming said this, that, and the other thing. That could all be made up.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think your ethics are better than New York Times investigative journalists?

Mike Cernovich: The ones who gave us weapons of mass destruction, big story from the New York Times, front page, WMDs in Iraq, let’s go to war, boom boom boom. Fake. Fake as fuck. It’s the New York Times I don’t have any respect for. I don’t believe anything I read in there. The same way people view me, the same way people on the left view me as just some guy who are making stuff up, I don’t care, they can think that. That’s how I view the New York Times. I think yeah, maybe it’s true, maybe they’re making it up, I don’t know.

Isobel Yeung: What is it about the mainstream media do you think that is going wrong?

Mike Cernovich: Group think. It is the nature of humans to have biases and to view some things as being more important than others and largely that’s subjective. For example you might say “I don’t think the Susan Rice story is a big story.” But if that had been, are you old enough to remember George Bush being a president? You’re younger, you know. If that John Ashcroft had done that, if John Ashcroft had ordered people to be unmasked, then we could have had a big story about George W. Bush, unconsciously that’s going to be like the biggest story because you don’t like those guys. So much in journalism is about who do we like, who do we not like. If you don’t like a person then what you view as being damning evidence is for you, highly persuasive, and if you like a person you think that’s a nothing burger, that’s not a big story or anything.

Hillary Clinton for example took mass amounts of money from Saudi Arabia, massive amounts of money from Qatar, massive amounts of [inaudible 00:31:28]. Hillary Clinton raised all this money for her non-profit, most of the money didn’t go anywhere. There was a big uranium deal approved when she was a state [inaudible 00:31:34] Russia. Bill Clinton was paid $750,000 give or take by Putin to talk in Russia but nobody wants to talk about that. Everybody wants to talk about Flynn, and it’s ultimately just as human beings.

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 00:31:49]

Mike Cernovich: The speeches for sure, the telegrams are there. Bill Clinton took massive speaking fees from the Russians. The uranium deal, speaking of the New York Times, this is where, this is a weird thing. The New Times Broke had broke the uranium deal of Hillary Clinton. You might say how do you not trust the New York Times? I say hey, you got me. We’re all in a sense hypocrites and we all want to believe the worst about people that we don’t like and we don’t agree with and we all want to believe the best about people we do like and we do agree with. That’s just the nature of humanity and human beings and we’re never going to get over that.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think it’s the failings of the mainstream media that has allowed the rise of people like you?

Mike Cernovich: Oh for sure because they didn’t want to cover the kind of stories we thought were important ultimately. If you don’t cover stories that a lot of people don’t want to hear about, then that’s a market opportunity for other people and that vacuum is going to be kind of filled.

Isobel Yeung: How did the election change things, how did that change the [crosstalk 00:32:51] people like you?

Mike Cernovich: All the experts said Trump had no shot of winning. We heard that for 18 months. He’s not going to win, the polls say Hillary is ahead, you people are fakes news, you don’t understand, you’re idiots, you dummies, Hillary Clinton is going to win, every expert said it. There’s no way that Trump wins and suddenly Trump wins and then rather than the media say oh shit, what did we get wrong, maybe we should talk to these people. They go Russia hacked the election. What evidence? Well some guy told us. We’ll call that in the press as an intelligence community and create this artificial … But we’re not going to name who’s in the intelligence community. Then people like me are saying wait a minute, people in the intelligence community told the New York Times that there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that wasn’t true.

Then it comes down to why should we believe you now when we were lied to before. Becomes an issue of once a cheater, always a cheater.

Isobel Yeung: You say you’re a journalist, you are also openly and aggressively pro-Trump. Do you think it’s sad as well, the state of journalism today in America because obviously this is incredibly openly biased.

Mike Cernovich: On both sides for sure.

Isobel Yeung: For you, I’m saying for you, do you think this is sad. If you see yourself as contributing to journalism, do you not think it’s sad that what you’re contributing is incredibly biased?

Mike Cernovich: The mainstream media, 90% of people in journalism are liberals.

Isobel Yeung: I’m not talk about mainstream media, I’m talking about …

Mike Cernovich: You have to contextualize me within the broader conversation.

Isobel Yeung: You see yourself as balancing that out.

Mike Cernovich: I see myself as being honest whereas people in mainstream media are dishonest. Mainstream media, we all know, just say I like Hillary Clinton, that is actually less, disclosing a bias is less that because I tell people look man, I’m pro Trump. Everybody who reads me knows okay, if I want to find a critical hot take on Trump, probably don’t go to Cernovich. If Cernovich are writing articles critical of democrats, I should probably adjust that so to me it’s the most honest journalism to say look man, I’m biased as fuck, I’m telling you this. I’m not sitting here pretending to not have an agenda, pretending I don’t care who wins and loses, that’s why a lot of people respect what I do because so many other people on the left in the mainstream media say “We’re jus there to report the news, we don’t have opinions.” They’re not robots, people are human beings. It’d be better for everybody to say look man, here’s a bias, we’re going to do our best to tell you the truth but the cards are on the table.

Isobel Yeung: You don’t think it’s bad at all that that obviously means that the media is so incredibly divided and the country is incredibly divided.

Mike Cernovich: It’s very unfortunate that people in the mainstream media don’t want to cover stories like violence against Trump supporters, Antifa, finally that got covered.

Isobel Yeung: The mainstream media does cover …

Mike Cernovich: Finally a little bit.

Isobel Yeung: They do cover …

Mike Cernovich: When they blame it on Trump, people they say a fight broke out. There were violence at Trump rallies happening by the protestors not inside. In that regard there are, there’s a great [Charlie-Rozelle 00:35:56] has done great work on this. Oliver Darcy, and these are more liberal guys but the ideas now where, the best article I read is The Upside Down Universe in the Pro Trump Media. Even though it’s quite critical of me but I don’t really care about people who are criticizing me as long as they’re ultimately trying to be honest and the idea is, this is hella true for me, the people who are going to watch this on Vice or on HBO are not my people.

You guys could create a caricature of a madman and a monster and maybe two or three people who follow me on Twitter would watch it. We live now in parallel structures which I don’t think is a good thing. I think we should try to find a way, we’re always going to have disagreements, but I think we should definitely try to find a way that more people, that’s why I’ve been talking to more liberal journalists when I used to say no to everybody. I’ve turned down media that most people would kill for but I’ve been like on, let’s just have more of a conversation and people are still going to have their views. Right now there’s no shared set of facts in the country. There’s no one thing where I can say this appeared on CNN and a right winger and a left winger, a liberal, conservative, yeah, that’s true. We’re now at the point that people don’t even believe the underlying facts we’re reporting that we see in the media. That’s the real problem and that’s the problem that the media, the bigger media, these billion dollar corporations need to figure out.

Isobel Yeung: Going back to the stories that you reported on, obviously Susan Rice was an incredibly big source of pride for you, how did you break that story?

Mike Cernovich: Sources, got sources.

Isobel Yeung: What sources?

Mike Cernovich: Definitely not going to talk about that.

Isobel Yeung: White House sources?

Mike Cernovich: Definitely not going to talk about that.

Isobel Yeung: Do you have contacts in the White House?

Mike Cernovich: Definitely not going to talk about that.

Isobel Yeung: Why?

Mike Cernovich: Doesn’t do me any good or anybody else any good to know where my sources come from.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think there’s a movement at the moment from the White House to move away from cooperating with traditional mainstream media …

Mike Cernovich: 100%.

Isobel Yeung: And towards trusting people like you with that information?

Mike Cernovich: 100%. 100% moving away from that which is again, that’s an issue these multi billion dollar corporations, the New York Times just fired its public editor, they don’t have a public editor anymore. Think about this, you do news so imagine that you’re just like a regular guy or girl and there’s something dishonest about you in the New York Times. How do you get it fixed, who do you contact, what do you do, you are fucked, right. That’s the problem, it’s that hubris and that arrogance from the mainstream media to think we don’t even need a public editor. There’s no hotline you can call, you can’t call … Look man, you’re ruining a reputation, people are asking me about this, this is like a real problem. You can’t do anything. You got to message someone like me who can then go on Twitter, Facebook, and Youtube and everywhere else and amplify the message.

It kind of sucks dude if you’re just a regular guy and the media gets something wrong about you, what do you do, who do you talk to?

Isobel Yeung: Donald Trump Jr. spoke out in praise of you. Obviously you have contacts somewhat close to the White House.

Mike Cernovich: Definitely don’t talk ever about sources but I appreciate your aggression on that point.

Isobel Yeung: Yes or no, I’m going to ask you a few questions actually which will be yes or no if you will.

Mike Cernovich: I’m a lawyer so be careful of that.

Isobel Yeung: Do you believe that Hillary Clinton was involved in a child pedophilia ring.

Mike Cernovich: I believe, definitely, that whole story.

Isobel Yeung: Yes or no. Do you believe that Hillary Clinton was involved in a child pedophilia ring.

Mike Cernovich: Depends on how you define it because there’s multiple definitions of that. Do I believe Hillary Clinton …

Isobel Yeung: You defined it earlier as, I mean you promoted the hashtag of Pizzagate and you promoted the idea that Hillary Clinton was involved in a child pedophilia ring.

Mike Cernovich: I said she had connections. Robbie Mook who is a campaign manager of Jacob Schwartz. Jacob Schwartz was a Democrat … [crosstalk 00:40:00]

Isobel Yeung: On the third of November so five days before the election you tweeted “The Clintons are running a pedophilia ring. It’s been in the emails all the time, we just weren’t able to see the code.”

Mike Cernovich: Yeah I don’t agree with that.

Isobel Yeung: You don’t agree with that.

Mike Cernovich: I definitely don’t think the Clintons are personally running a pedophilia ring.

Isobel Yeung: Why did you write it?

Mike Cernovich: That was worded imprecisely.

Isobel Yeung: Why did you write it then?

Mike Cernovich: Anthony Weiner is a pedophile and they’re connected with him. Bill Clinton officiated his wedding.

Isobel Yeung: Why did you say this if you know it’s not true?

Mike Cernovich: It’s not that it’s not true, it’s that it’s worded …

Isobel Yeung: Now you take this back.

Mike Cernovich: I’m saying that Anthony Weiner is a pedophile.

Isobel Yeung: You take this back now?

Mike Cernovich: I would reword things definitely more carefully on Twitter for sure.

Isobel Yeung: How would you reword this now?

Mike Cernovich: I’d reword it to say that Bill Clinton officiated the wedding of Anthony Weiner and Huma and Anthony Weiner is a pedophile. He is going …

Isobel Yeung: I’m not talking about Anthony Weiner, I’m talking about what you …

Mike Cernovich: Sure but those ar ethe connections.

Isobel Yeung: What you tweeted in 2016 was that the Clintons were running a pedophile ring.

Mike Cernovich: They’re connected to pedophiles.

Isobel Yeung: Do you regret tweeting that now?

Mike Cernovich: They’re connected to pedophiles, I definitely don’t regret that.

Isobel Yeung: You don’t regret it.

Mike Cernovich: Absolutely not.

Isobel Yeung: Even though you know it’s wrong.

Mike Cernovich: I said it was imprecise, it needed to be worded differently. Yeah they’re connected to pedophiles for sure. 100%.

Isobel Yeung: So you think the Clintons … How connected to pedophiles?

Mike Cernovich: Anthony Weiner is going to prison for two years. Aid de camp, like the number one guy, Jacob Schwartz, child pornography, he and Bobby Mook who was Clinton’s campaign manager, he is going to prison for child pornography, so yeah they have all these connections to these pedophiles and creepy pedophile people for sure. And the Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton. The issue with the way I word things is on Twitter sometimes you’re a little looser than you should be and you need to just tighten up the logic a little bit more. In that regard …

Isobel Yeung: You aggressively tweeted this, you tweeted the idea that they were very heavily involved in a pedophilia ring, also hashtagged Pizzagate very aggressively which lead to a shooting in a pizza restaurant in DC. Do you regret at all or do you acknowledge at all the danger in which spreading these sorts of false information can create?

Mike Cernovich: Bill Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein, pedophile connection. Jefferey Epstein registered sex offender. These are all these stories that are under-reported in the media. In terms of the whole pizza thing, nobody has ever been able to find me, nobody has ever been able to find and identifying the owner of the pizza parlor or the pizza parlor itself.

Isobel Yeung: I’m asking you because you’re promoting the idea that the Clintons were involved in a pedophilia ring.

Mike Cernovich: Connected to pedophiles for sure.

Isobel Yeung: And you were also saying there was a obviously this huge cnspiracy theory around Pizzagate. I’m asking you if you understand or you acknowledge the dangers which are involved in spreading this false information?

Mike Cernovich: People spun that whole pizza thing completely away from what I was talking about.

Isobel Yeung: Can you understand the connection between the two? You tweeting about the Clintons being involved and a pedophilia ring which apparently you don’t even believe anymore.

Mike Cernovich: I believe they’re connected to pedophiles.

Isobel Yeung: And the shooting in the pizza restaruant.

Mike Cernovich: I definitely believe the Clintons are connected to pedophiles and pedophilia.

Isobel Yeung: … Understand that one is connected to another and that you tweeting about Pizzagate and you tweeting about Clintons being involved in pedophilia ring lead to this shooting in broad daylight in a pizza restaurant in DC.

Mike Cernovich: No because I’m not connected to what other people are saying on the Internet. On any given day on the Internet people are saying …

Isobel Yeung: You [crosstalk 00:43:49] all responsibility when it goes out on the Internet.

Mike Cernovich: I’m responsible for what I talk about and for what I say. I’m not responsible for what other people talk about. If they spin things out of control, if they run things that are false. That is ultimately why I never again, I never had identified the pizza joint because I didn’t think there was anything happening specifically at that physical location but just to be clear as far as that tweet goes, I said I worded it [inaudible 00:44:16] but I stand by the contention that Bill and Hillary Clinton are connected to pedophiles 100%. I’ll take that with me to the grave. Jeff Epstein, Anthony Weiner, Jacob Schwartz, the Saudis, they are way connected to pedophiles. I stand by that but in terms of are they buying and selling children, no.

Isobel Yeung: This Pizzagate hastag went viral, you helped promote that, you constantly tweeted the hashtag Pizza. Do you see yourself in any way responsible for any of the things that happened in Pizzagate?

Mike Cernovich: Posting to a hashtag doesn’t mean you endorse the hashtag or the ideas of the hashtag.

Isobel Yeung: Sure it does, you had 100s of 1000s of people, you’ve been saying the Clintons are involved …

Mike Cernovich: The Clintons are different things from the pizza parlor.

Isobel Yeung: It’s not different.

Mike Cernovich: 100%. The Clintons are trash, scum of the world.

Isobel Yeung: If you talk about the Clintons being involved in child pedophilia and anytime you’re hashtagging Pizzagate, of course someone is going to make the connection and perhaps go in there with a gun and shoot a place.

Mike Cernovich: I’ve often posted things to hashtags completely unrelated to the subject matter and that’s why I don’t do it anymore because people interpret it that way. I’ll give you an example …

Isobel Yeung: You don’t think in any way you’re at all responsible for what happened in the restaurant?

Mike Cernovich: No of course not, 100% not. Were people responsible who posted the hashtag “Has Justine landed yet” about Justine Sacco who made an ironic joke? That’s why you keep saying we’re going off topic and this is not because I see the media very globally and very much inter-connected and you would say why is the media struggling and I would say because Justine Sacco was essentially ruined by an ironic joke. There’s a point here, but there’s no media coverage on Justine Sacco and are you responsible to what happens to her if you posted to the hashtag “Has Justine landed yet”. Public shaming. If you join a public shaming mob are you responsible for what happens.

The mainstream media will never go there and never try to use that collective guilt but then if people completely unconnected to me go off the rails and do goofy things, then it’s like oh I’m public enemy number one. That was kind of what I got into. I go look dude, why are you paying more attention to me than the fake news from the New York Times about the Russia hysteria which there’s no evidence for. Getting people just freaking out, hate crime hoaxes. What cracks me up is there’s all this scrutiny on me, one guy, upstairs with my computers, and then all these multi-billion dollar corporations. Nobody wants to go there, nobody wants to hold them accountable, nobody wants to rock that boat because everybody …

Isobel Yeung: Let’s say you had absolutely no involvement in this whole Pizzagate issue, however, people who were following you were tweeting that the Clintons were running a child pedophilia ring out of a Pizza restaurant. Do you see that what they were tweeting had any connection to events that occurred later on in the restaurant.

Mike Cernovich: People are definitely responsible for what they say and do and I’m responsible for what I say and do.

Isobel Yeung: by them tweeting that, it did lead to the shooting.

Mike Cernovich: Definitely not. In terms of what lead to that, as far as me having to do with it, the guy never mentioned me, never said anything to do about me.

Isobel Yeung: I’m not talking about you, I’m saying you’re not involved with it at all but what about the people who are following you who were tweeting that the Clintons were involved in this pizza restaurant.

Mike Cernovich: The Clintons and the pizza thing are separate but …

Isobel Yeung: You said how one thing leads to the other.

Mike Cernovich: People need to be responsible for sure.

Isobel Yeung: There are real life detrimental consequences to saying one thing.

Mike Cernovich: I mean the New York Times and the weapons of mass destruction.

Isobel Yeung: I’m talking about this, I’m talking about Pizzagate.

Mike Cernovich: That’s the dumb thing compared to the travesty of the Iraq war, to me again, that’s the thing, Rolling Stone wanted to do a thing on Pizzagate and I’m like, oh my god, everybody is still talking about this dumb fucking pizza parlor when there are people having birth defects and cancer, newborn babies in Iraq, because all the bombs were dropped. Absolutely no shame.

Isobel Yeung: You still stand by this tweet?

Mike Cernovich: I would reword it differently but I’m not embarrassed by it at all. People could post my picture with that tweet.

Isobel Yeung: So you do or don’t stand by this tweet?

Mike Cernovich: By that tweet, I would word it differently.

Isobel Yeung: You don’t stand by this tweet.

Mike Cernovich: But I have no shame about it. It was a different thing, I would reword it differently. I would issue an editorial correction but if people want to try to pin that on me I don’t really care. The broader point is it isn’t that I’m trying to change the subject, it’s just that it’s unfathomable to me …

Isobel Yeung: It does seem like you’re trying to change the subject.

Mike Cernovich: No because I like to talk about what’s interesting and some fucking retard in a pizza parlor versus the catastrophe of the war in Iraq. To me I don’t see any kind of moral equivalence at all on why are we still talking about this fucking pizza thing, this is so, in the rear view mirror kind of thing, why aren’t we talking about the fake news that comes from the mainstream media, what kind of menace that is, what kind of threat it is when people like, creating hysteria. It’s kind of like an issue of if one day I bumped into a wall and five years later people are like you know the time you bumped in that wall, it’s boring to me. All the boring journalism, it bores me to death.

Isobel Yeung: Yes or no, do you believe liberals want to legalize pedophilia.

Mike Cernovich: The hard left, SJWs do, yeah. Salon had written articles about it. The hard left SJWs do. That’s another example of where, there’s the sensible liberals.

Isobel Yeung: What do you mean by that? You think liberals want to legalize pedophilia?

Mike Cernovich: Oh yeah, that, 100%.

Isobel Yeung: What is the obsession with pedophilia, why is it [crosstalk 00:50:05]

Mike Cernovich: My obsession? Salon and the New York Times have all written articles that pedophilia is a disorder, not a crime. You can Google all that stuff.

Isobel Yeung: I mean they’re trying to get to the psychological backgrounds of it, not suggesting it …

Mike Cernovich: They’re normalizing it.

Isobel Yeung: They’re not suggesting it’s not a criminal activity.

Mike Cernovich: They’re normalizing it and trying to get people used to it and to tolerate it 100%. We’ve seen this happen a 100 times so in that regard, would I say the average run of the mill democrat voter is pro-pedophilia? No. Would I say there’s a movement definitely from the left to normalize pedophilia, oh yeah, 100%.

Isobel Yeung: You said on a postcast recently when you appeared, if the right wing doesn’t take the reigns it would be total degeneracy. The left wing will normalize pedophilia.

Mike Cernovich: Yeah, 100%.

Isobel Yeung: That’s what you believe?

Mike Cernovich: Oh yeah.

Isobel Yeung: That’s where you think the world is going if …

Mike Cernovich: I stand behind that, that doesn’t even need rewording. A lot of stuff I’ve said is just [inaudible 00:50:56]. You write a lot, you talk a lot, sometimes you think I should’ve worded that differently. Doesn’t mean I regret it, it just means you didn’t really clearly communicate what you’re saying but definitely that, 100%.

Isobel Yeung: Wow. Yes or no, was Hillary Clinton involved in Seth Rich’s death.

Mike Cernovich: I don’t think so. Perhaps. But there’s not enough evidence. It’s insufficient evidence.

Isobel Yeung: Why did you even tweet in 2016, “Where is Seth Rich’s body buried, Hillary Clinton?” Hashtag Podesta email.

Mike Cernovich: I asked her where is it, that’s different.

Isobel Yeung: Sounds like you have strong suspicions and you’re implying that and oyu’re also spreading that.

Mike Cernovich: I’m definitely suspicious.

Isobel Yeung: And you’re spreading that.

Mike Cernovich: I’m highly suspicious of Seth Rich’s murder for sure but I haven’t reached a conclusion one way or another. But I definitely …

Isobel Yeung: Is that journalism though to have this hunch over something and then just to spread it?

Mike Cernovich: What is journalism?

Isobel Yeung: I’m asking you.

Mike Cernovich: People have 100s about Russia which is complete nonsense so in that regard I’m …

Isobel Yeung: There’s evidence.

Mike Cernovich: What evidence?

Isobel Yeung: You’re saying you have no evidnece at all that Hillary Clinton was involved in Seth Rich’s murder but [crosstalk 00:52:08]

Mike Cernovich: Oh no I said it’s highly suspicious and I would like to investigate it further and I would like to ask her about that, yes.

Isobel Yeung: Yes or no, do you believe that there’s no oppression of Syrian refugees.

Mike Cernovich: 100% there’s oppression.

Isobel Yeung: Why did you tweet there was no oppression?

Mike Cernovich: Did I say 0 oppression?

Isobel Yeung: In 2015 you said “I went to Budapest, Hungary to get the truth about the refugees [crosstalk 00:52:34].”

Mike Cernovich: Yes.

Isobel Yeung: “Some children but mostly able bodied young men, there is no oppression, the media lied, hashtag Syria [inaudible 00:52:43]

Mike Cernovich: Yeah, 100%, I went to the [Colety 00:52:45] train station in Budapest, Hungary, where apparently the refugees were being oppressed and attacked by the government and everything. 100% no oppression, no oppression there.

Isobel Yeung: So you think seeing a handful of refugees constitutes news?

Mike Cernovich: Yeah, that’s why I took pictures.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think seeing this and having a hunch over something constitutes news and constitutes your belief and you spreading this belief as factual news?

Mike Cernovich: I’m telling the truth, the murder was there with their cameras interviewing … There was one lady in a wheelchair. I’ll tell you exactly what I saw.

Isobel Yeung: People have been in Syria, real journalists have been in Syria, they’ve been reporting on this as well as the [inaudible 00:53:26], as well as extremely credible sources have been on the ground reporting on this. You go to Budapest and you see a few people walking around and you convey that as news?

Mike Cernovich: Credible by whom? [inaudible 00:53:36] ISIS, they’re connected with terrorism, you can find pictures of them beheading people one day. In terms of credible, to me that’s just all propabanda being spread to create more war.

Isobel Yeung: You think even though you have never been to Syria that you’re qualified to say that Syria …

Mike Cernovich: Sources on the ground. You’ve never been to …

Isobel Yeung: I have been to [crosstalk 00:53:56]

Mike Cernovich: The Syrian civil war, I never said the Syrian civil war was a hoax.

Isobel Yeung: What are you saying?

Mike Cernovich: I said Assad didn’t gas his own people. [crosstalk 00:54:01]

Isobel Yeung: You said the Syrian people are fleeing from economic woes.

Mike Cernovich: The men who are primarily leaving are going to other countries and that’s why I documented everything on the pictures. They are leaving for welfare benefits and that’s proven because they even say … There was a sign that said don’t spot at Denmark because if you get fingerprinted you have to stay at Denmark. That doesn’t sound to me, because I’ve been to Denmark, it’s a pretty fucking great place. If you’re saying you got to go to Germany or Austria because that’s where the most welfare is, don’t get stuck in Denmark. That doesn’t strike me as somebody who is [inaudible 00:54:40]

Isobel Yeung: Did you try and verify your facts at all. You said most of these people who are fleeing this situation are able bodied young men. Did you try and verify that, [inaudible 00:54:49].

Mike Cernovich: The UN is a propaganda organization. I definitely talked to sources and intelligence community and other things.

Isobel Yeung: Who did you talk to?

Mike Cernovich: I never identify sources.

Isobel Yeung: How convenient.

Mike Cernovich: Do you identify your sources, does the New York Times identify theirs?

Isobel Yeung: Yes, most of the time unless they have a reason to not to and I would say they’re an extremely credible source.

Mike Cernovich: Can I find an on the record article from the New York Times naming people who claimed Russia hacked the election.

Isobel Yeung: I’m talking about whether or not you think it’s justified to convey these claims that hashtag Syriahoax and to say that all these refugees are able bodied young men. Obviously what you’re doing is spreading fear and spreading hatred.

Mike Cernovich: I want to see an article in the Washington Post or the New York Times, or the Boston Globe or the LA Times [inaudible 00:55:36].

Isobel Yeung: You are avoiding the point.

Mike Cernovich: No it’s a big point [crosstalk 00:55:40]. You’re trying to hold me to a higher standard than people hold the rest of the media to which is bullshit.

Isobel Yeung: No [inaudible 00:55:45] why you’re publishing something off of a hunch that you saw.

Mike Cernovich: There was no hunch, I posted the pictures.

Isobel Yeung: Why are you not trying to verify that information?

Mike Cernovich: I verify it with people, with very high level people. 100%. That’s the whole thing is I went there, I posted the pictures, didn’t edit anything, took 100s of pictures, [inaudible 00:56:04] millions of times.

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 00:56:09]

Mike Cernovich: They’re frauds. The UN covered up the cholera scandal that happened I believe in Haiti.

Isobel Yeung: You’re saying you don’t talk to the UN, you’re saying that you don’t really believe in the government. Who are you talking to …

Mike Cernovich: That’s the thing, I don’t identify my sources but …

Isobel Yeung: You’re not really verifying your facts.

Mike Cernovich: Sure I do but I have my sources that I don’t name but the UN covered up the cholera scandal, Slate broke this of all people. You can fact check, why did the UN cover up how they started a plague in Haiti and then they covered it up. This is all in Slate, mainstream publication, in how they did that so then why would I trust the UN when they’re covering up, verifiably.

Verifiably covering things up, I don’t trust them. There was a bunch of UN peacekeeping soldiers who were caught in a sex trafficking right. The Associated Press published that story.

These are mainstream outlets saying the UN sex trafficking, the UN covering up these pandemics that they’re spreading. Then you’re saying “Why don’t you talk to the UN?” That’s why.

Isobel Yeung: All you’re doing is you’re going to Budapest, you’re frankly acting like a misinformed tourist, you’re taking these photos and as a result you’re spreading a huge amiunt of fear and hatred to people on something that isn’t true.

Mike Cernovich: I’m spreading the truth 100%. That’s the thing that cracks me up. I was there, I posted my picture, I didn’t edit footage. I didn’t find the one frail old woman and the one kid and say oh my god, there’s all these children here. I said look, here we go, here’s the whole picture, here’s the whole scene. That is the most honest journalism in the world and that is why my jounrlaism is honest.

Isobel Yeung: [inaudible 00:57:46]

Mike Cernovich: I have spoken to sources on the ground in Syria. I have not been to Syria but I have spoken to sources on ground in Syria and I have learned a lot of the information that we get from the mainstream media about Syria is a hoax, fabrication, just like the WMDs in Iraq.

Isobel Yeung: Why does it that you exactly believe is a hoax?

Mike Cernovich: In terms of what the refugees …

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 00:58:11]

Mike Cernovich: There are indeed refugees. Saudi Arabia does need to take more, there’s been a massive civil war. The moderate rebels which are being armed and trained in many cases by globalist warmongers even from the United States are pressing people to radically, jihadists, want to [inaudible 00:58:27] because they want to take over and establish a caliphate and that the globalists want like John McCain, want another big war in Syria and the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan should be that we need to stay the fuck out of the Middle East. We don’t need to be bombing them, we need to let them sort things out for themselves. In that regard the people have fled to Jordan. I’ve been to Jordan. Massive refugee camps in Jordan. That’s the thing, I’ve never said that there weren’t refugees and that it wasn’t legitimately war-torn. I’ve said that most of the people going to Europe are men of prime fighting age and they’re economic migrants and they are going to the countries that have the most generous welfare benefits and I do 100% stand behind.

Isobel Yeung: Last time I saw you, you were speaking out against [inaudible 00:59:16] for refusing to disavow Antifa. Since then there’s been a white supremacist who has killed two people in Poland. Do you want Trump to speak out against white supremacist?

Mike Cernovich: The guy who did that, he actually used to be a Bernie supporter, we blew that story through the walls. Yeah, some lunatic in Portland.

Isobel Yeung: You’re saying he used to be a Bernie supporter, he spoke out on Facebook [crosstalk 00:59:47]

Mike Cernovich: He’s a lunatic, the point is …

Isobel Yeung: You’re cherry picking by saying …

Mike Cernovich: No I’m not, I’m saying the guy is a complete fucking lunatic so if you want to say in terms of hey, this guy fucking killed some people, what do you think about that? I said it’s fucking terrible, hope that guy gets the death penalty. Bullshit, I wrote about it, I covered it, said the guy is a piece of shit. That’s terrible.

Isobel Yeung: You said you uncovered that he was a Bernie supporter. I mean that’s hardly uncovering, you’re cherry picking a couple of things he said on his social media amongst the 100s and 100s of …

Mike Cernovich: So are you.

Isobel Yeung: Amongst 100s of support for Nazi and the white supremacist movement.

Mike Cernovich: I’m anti-Nazi.

Isobel Yeung: If Trump is the next Hitler then I’m joining his [crosstalk 01:00:26]

Mike Cernovich: Sure, people call me a Nazi. The Nazis call me a Jew Kikeovich, Cuckovich, you got a mud baby. All those people …

Isobel Yeung: But you’re cherry picking a couple of tweets and ignoring the rest.

Mike Cernovich: Everybody does that too because people were trying to say he’s a Trump supporter, that’s not really true, so the idea …

Mike Cernovich: Here’s the truth, the truth is the guy is a fucking headcase, complete and total evil loser, complete piece of shit, nobody is going to defend what he did. Now, if we want to pin him on Trump that’s bullshit. If you want to pin him on Bernie, that’s bullshit too. The truth is the guy is just a fucking loony, bad guy, hope he gets the death penalty kind of thing. If the mainstream media wants to pin that on Trump then I’m going to say you got to read the Bernie stuff too.

Isobel Yeung: Do you not think that the fact that he spoke out in support of the white supremacists movement would be enough for Trump to disavow this Nazi rhetoric.

Mike Cernovich: Trump has disavowed David Duke, he has disavowed those guys, I have disavowed those guys. The question is what more can I do? I’ve said, people throw up a Nazi salute, they didn’t even do anything violent. I said you guys are on your own. If that’s what you want to be about I don’t want anything to do with it so then it’s “Cernovich you’re a Jew, and you’re this and you’re that.” I’m like whatever, it’s what people do in the internet. Trump disavowed David Duke. Trump disavowed the Nazi salute. Then any time something else … You got to do that, you got to do that, what more can you do, any lunatic can say they support you and believe you but if we are going to make Trump … It goes to the whole point. If we want to pin things on people I don’t think that’s fair. But if we’re going to pin things on me or we’re going to pin things on Trump then hey, we’re going to have to pin things on Obama and people on the left, [inaudible 01:02:11], Hillary Clinton.

Isobel Yeung: You have a conspiracy theory on what happened in Portland, don’t you?

Mike Cernovich: A conspiracy theory?

Isobel Yeung: What even happened in Portland?

Mike Cernovich: Dude, a guy went on a fucking rampage, stabbed a couple of people who were trying to protect, apparently a couple of Muslim women who had hijabs on.

Isobel Yeung: You blame that on the Portland police?

Mike Cernovich: No but the guy had been reported by Trump supporters and the Portland police didn’t investigate him. 100% that’s true. Fuck yeah. If you want to get into that fucking case, that’s some of the great journalism I’ve done which is we were talking about this and talking about this lunatic and then a guy who was at the free speech rally called in and he goes “No, that guy tried to come to our rally”, the guy threw up a Nazi salute, the Trump supporters kicked the guy off the fucking rally. They said “No, they guy was throwing N bombs, throwing Nazi salutes.” They all told him get the fuck out of here. They physically removed him and I posted that video of that. Trump supporters disavowed him.

Isobel Yeung: Why is it then that there’s been mass protests with a lot of free speech, alt-right protestors basically marching in support of what happened.

Mike Cernovich: None of them did. They kicked the guy out and they called the police on him.

Isobel Yeung: They were protests there yesterday in Portland.

Mike Cernovich: They had a pre-planned …

Isobel Yeung: Do you think that’s appropriate to be marching for free speech basically in support of a murderer?

Mike Cernovich: Are you kidding me, that was pre-scheduled. This is fake news what you’re telling me right now. No, they had a rally for June 4th already scheduled, they had one for June 10th, already scheduled. One was going to be in one part, this is all fake news and that’s why fake news is dangerous and why we need to talk more. These guys had a free speech rally, the Portland killer showed up, dropped N bombs, threw Nazi salutes. These people who many of whom read me said they kicked the guy out and I go show me the video. They showed me the video, they didn’t post it the day he was caught, the day they kicked him out.

They all said you can’t say that, you can’t act like that, get the fuck out of here. They got rid of the guy. Afterwards the guy started making threats to my readers and my viewers, those guys called the Portland police and said “There’s this guy, I think his name is John Christian”, they said “There’s this guy, he’s threatening us, he’s threatening people.” Portland police did fucking nothing about it and I’ve seen the phone records, they did make the calls. They didn’t do fucking nothing about it. These guys already had another free speech march planned and they went and had the free speech march.

Now if I were advising them and they wanted my opinion I would’ve said the optics of this probably aren’t good, have it in two weeks from now. That would be the way I would approach it.

Isobel Yeung: I’m sure they were aware of the optics and I’m sure they are aware of the fact that a lot of people will assume they’re marching in support of this murderer.

Mike Cernovich: The question is how much do you let other people define you and how much are you just going to let fake narrative or fake news narrative define who you are in your movement. That’s the decision everybody has to make so yeah they were marching, they kicked the guy out of the group, that’s what I mean, that’s why fake news is so dangerous, that people actually believe this. I can show you right now, the Youtube videos where the day of their march a month ago or whatever, six weeks ago. This John Christian guy shows up, does a Nazi salute, they all surround him, and they all say “Dude, you can’t be here, you got to go.” I can show you the video the same day it happened but that’s not the narrative that the media wants which is Trump supporters are bad, they are these evil people.

In terms of the broader question, I had an event [inaudible 01:05:40], I said anybody throws a Nazi salute, you’re going to get your fucking ass kicked, very clear about that, took a lot of fucking heat for that shit because I define myself differently. Now some guy comes to my event, throws a Nazi salute, like what the fuck are we supposed to do, kill him? That’s the whole thing is anybody can show up to your event and do any fucking dumb fuck thing so what do you do. Nobody has a good answer for that and my approach is that if people on the left show up and they’re doing shady shit then hey you got to say you want the left to disavow this or what I would personally like to see is the whole thing to just disappear. You’re responsible for you, you’re responsible for what you do, other people who do bad things are responsible for what they do.

If we’re going to hold people or Trump and say Trump, you better disavow this, then when the left commits acts of violence and terrorism then the left has to disavow it too. But the truth is nobody should have to disavow things that other people do.

Isobel Yeung: This man that murdered two people walked into his court and said free speech or die, death to Antifa. That concept of free speech and obviously you’re all for free speech, do you see that could be a danger in hijacking this free speech narrative in order to create violence?

Mike Cernovich: I’ve told people repeatedly that you have to watch out for people like that. That’s why I’m very careful about who I talk to, who I associate with. Because people can come in who have problems and this has happened to the left, it’s happened to the right. People can come in who just have mental health problems and they rather than get treatment they want to lash on to a movement and then they lose their marbles. The Portland thing, I never defended that, it was the opposite of defending it. In fact I’m proud of the people who read me and watch me, when they saw a guy who came into their event and drop N bombs and throw Nazi salutes, I’m very proud that they told him “You have a free speech right to do that but not with us, you need to get away from that.” I’m proud of how people handled it.

Isobel Yeung: It concerns you a little bit that this free speech is going too far.

Mike Cernovich: Any rhetoric on any side, the whole white people are devil, whites are the devil, whites are oppressing people, whites are out there trying to lynch black people, that shit’s bad too.

Mike Cernovich: I can find that on Twitter right now. I can find you left wing thinkers talking about evil white men, showing hashtags, kill all white men. I can do that all day so that’s the whole point is what you’re doing is you’re coming at things from a very far left, left wing perspective and then I come at things from a completely different perspective and then when I come at you with the same points but from a different perspective you look at my like I’m crazy and that’s how we look at you guys. Like dude, you are fucking crazy, you are trying to pin Jeremy Christian who is a scumbag that got kicked out of an event. You’re trying to pin him on us and we kicked him out of our event, that’s lunacy. But then if I pick somebody on the left who did something bad, you’re going to be like how are you going to try and pin him on us, we don’t want anything to do with that. It’s unhealthy for democracy, for jus living in a civil society, and I would like to see both sides quit doing that.

Isobel Yeung: How does that prevent what happens in the future, how does the left and the right come closer?

Mike Cernovich: We’re having a conversation. You haven’t thrown your drink on me, I haven’t thrown my drink on you. It’s very, I don’t want to say confrontational but it’s a very high conflict conversation. I’m not going to leave and think I hate this person, I hope she gets … I’m just okay, we disagreed, maybe she saw my perspective a little bit, maybe she saw mine a little bit, we didn’t come to some kind of consensus and we’re not going to kumbaya at the end but we’re going to think okay, I kind of get it but I don’t agree. People need to consistently have these types of conversations where instead of trying to shut down free speech, shut down events, we just say let’s get a couple of people, you’re a very smart person, you’re very well researched, you came at me very hard, and I don’t have a problem with that. And we definitely need more of that from the left and on the right.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think Trump’s doing a good job at the moment?

Mike Cernovich: Trump is against the deep state so he’s definitely still the underdog for sure.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think he’s doing a good job overall?

Mike Cernovich: Yeah I’m happy with how things are going.

Isobel Yeung: What’s your vision for what kind of world do you want to help contribute to and create in the next few years.

Mike Cernovich: One of where economic prosperity where, Jordan does a good job of this actually. I spent a lot of time in Jordan and there’s Jews, Muslims, and Christians and they all seem to more or less kind of get along. Actually when you talk to people in Jordan about what happened in Syria, it’s heart-breaking because they used to holiday in Damascus. That was because the Dinar was stronger in Jordan rather than Damascus so a lot of people in Jordan are Palestinians so they are in the diaspora. But like the Jews and Christians and Muslims are kind of able to co-exist and everything. That’s what I would like to see more but we’re not going to co-exist if we’re going to try and censor people, shut people down, not recognize not everybody agrees with you. That’s okay, people are going to disagree, maybe we don’t want to ruin a person’s life because you don’t agree with that person.

We should never get violent, all violence of course should be by Antifa or by people like Jeremy Christian, all violence. Oh of course, 100%, if you want me to white knight for the white supremacists you’re going to need another … I don’t like anything about those guys and I have nothing to do with them but if a white supremacist wants to give a talk on a college campus he’s got that right 100% for sure to do that. Now am I going to go to that event, am I going to promote that on Twitter, am I going to sell tickets, no I’m not going to do any of that. But they do have a right on a college campus to be there and in that regards I’ll 100% will support their right.

Isobel Yeung: What’s your vision for what the media landscape looks like in 10 years time in America.

Mike Cernovich: Virtual reality, I mean we got artificial intelligence drones, virtual reality, I don’t even know what the media landscape is going to look like in six months.

Right now we got drones that do great footage. You could in theory, whenever there’s a big public event, just have drones live streaming things as they’re happening and people are tuning in. What I really imagine is you’re going to have 24 hour live streams of various events and people are just going to plug in and it’ll be like a Big Brother-esque Truman Show, kind of thing for every sort of big breaking event and then of course artificial intelligence is coming and AI is going to learn how to write up articles and that’s going to be weird and virtual reality is coming. I have no idea what 10 years is going to look like, 10 months barely.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think the big players and journalists are going to be people like yourself?

Mike Cernovich: People like you, oh yeah, we’re the future. Unedited responsive content. People want to see what is going on and they don’t want the editorializing. I mean they like editorializing but they love the live streams so the future of media and journalism are people like me, who are going to break that fourth wall, talk directly to the people, interact with them. That’s what’s interesting is earlier you’re like “You don’t have sources, you don’t have this, you don’t have that” but we did a Periscope together and you could see I talked to tens of thousands of people. You think there isn’t maybe some people who watch my Periscope, read my articles, maybe somewhere, they’re all over the world. My source network would actually rival almost anyone because I do have this world wide audience and I’m so connected to them and they come to me with various things.

So the future of journalism …

Isobel Yeung: How did you build up that source network?

Mike Cernovich: Long long time, like a DJ. I’ve always said if you wanted …

Isobel Yeung: Like a DJ?

Mike Cernovich: Like a DJ, I’ll tell you why.

If you want a future in journalism you got to copy the DJs. They do a gig, 50 people show up, you know what they do? They fucking perform.

The DJ is not going to say, up and coming house DJs don’t say “I’m not as big as Zedd.” Above and Beyond wasn’t even that big until recently. You got a gig, you show up, it doesn’t matter if it’s 50 people or 50,000, you deliver. You get some people to like your Facebook page, you get some people on your mailing list. Next thing you know, 50 people are bringing their fans and then three, four, five years later, suddenly you have a real audience. I would say that I pay more attention to what DJs do and how DJs manage their gigs and their fan base than anybody in traditional media. I don’t pay attention to what any of those guys are doing.

Isobel Yeung: Do you ever get concerned that some of these sources might not be telling the truth?

Mike Cernovich: I always ask them who are you trying to get fired. It’s my number one question. I say who are you trying to get fired. What do you mean, come on bro. You want to move chess pieces on the board, don’t fuck with me, don’t try to pretend, because the effect is as you know called the stenographer effect where you’re a journalist but really some source feeds you info and you just type it out and you become nothing more than a stenographer. I say look dude, what pieces are you moving on the board, don’t bullshit me. Then I filter it through there and then I have other people I can run background source. But I have people who actually feed me a lot of fake news to try and set me up. That’s my biggest … My biggest fear right now actually is a lot of people send me intel thinking that I’ll just put it out there and then they’ll screen cap how they fed me a big story. That I’m always on guard for big time so then I …

Isobel Yeung: Obviously a lot of your followers have an agenda because all of them are pro-Trump.

Mike Cernovich: No a lot of pro-Bernie people too but everybody has an agenda so that just goes back to … To me saying that I have agenda is more …

Isobel Yeung: I mean it’s like the pro-Trump you quoted when you said that …

Mike Cernovich: Hillary Clinton had Parkinson’s. He had a perspective and then pro Hillary Clinton doctors said he’s wrong …

Isobel Yeung: that Hillary Clinton had Parkinson’s.

Mike Cernovich: Some kind of seizure for sure. Oh yeah. She wore her …

Isobel Yeung: Based on this one doctor’s opinion?

Mike Cernovich: No, based on the blue glasses that she wore which are the Zeiss blue lenses which people use for seizure control, based on how she froze up on 9/11, based on her multiple coughing fits, based on just the overall way that she looks, based on people who are caregivers, people with Parkinson’s, that story was very very well researched. It wasn’t just one random doctor.

Isobel Yeung: Was it just you looking at some photos

Mike Cernovich: I’m literally explaining to you my process which was I go the doctor, I talked to other doctors who I knew, I talked to people who are caregivers, people who had family members. I talked to so many people on that, which is again, it’s one of those, to me I stand by that 100%.

Isobel Yeung: You think that’s a very thoroughly researched Pulitzer worthy story?

Mike Cernovich: Is it Pulitzer worthy? We’ll see if in three or five years she becomes a spokesperson for Parkinson’s research. I’ll see if people give me that shout out for five years ago that I broke that story.

Isobel Yeung: If she doesn’t, are you going to eat your words?

Mike Cernovich: If in five years she’s still healthy and living the dream, I’ll say hey man, I got that one wrong.

Isobel Yeung: Will you still be around?

Mike Cernovich: I’ll be around, I’m not going anywhere. For better or for worse I’m not going anywhere.

Isobel Yeung: Where are you going? You were talking on Periscope just now about the idea of getting involved in politics? Is that something you want to do?

Mike Cernovich: Yeah I was going to run for Congress actually. If Dana Rohrabacher had been appointed Secretary of State as he was in the shortlist for, then his seat would’ve opened up and it would’ve been a 10 or 11 wide race and I could’ve gone in and won that. I could realistically, the right race comes up, where it’s a big race, 10 or 11 people, I could definitely win.

Isobel Yeung: So a career in politics is still your ambition?

Mike Cernovich: No it’s not my ambition but if destiny is presented in front of me then I will take it. But I’m not, it’s not the ambition but I do manage things more in terms of what would congressmen Cernovich do. So like I said that’s why I’m more careful of how I word things and even if from three months ago versus what I said a year ago, night and day difference because now I’m thinking in terms of, you got to be more careful, you got to be a little bit more precise.

Isobel Yeung: It must be a bit embarrassing, some of the stuff you said in the past.

Mike Cernovich: No because it’s life man, it’s kind of like …

Isobel Yeung: You’re trying to be taken seriously as a journalist and potentially as a politician, it’s a bit embarrassing.

Mike Cernovich: I am taken seriously. Maybe not by you and the kind of people who watch HBO but in terms of with the world and in terms of the US, I’m taken very seriously by millions of people now and within five years it’ll be 10s of millions of people so the idea that you or anybody in the media gets to determine who is taken seriously anymore, that is gone, that’s been gone for years, and it’s going to become even less relevant as the years become more involved where more direct interaction with people. Remember, legitimacy, were you an English major?

So you remember legitimacy is a social construct. Taking somebody seriously is a social construct, and the media can say “You’re not legitimate” but that’s just within their social constructs. Within the social construct I live in and with my extensive fan base and the millions of people across the US, I’m taken very seriously, which is again why I’m very careful that people don’t hoax me anymore and don’t feed me bad stories because that reader trust matters.

Isobel Yeung: You’re quite defensive over that point, that other people don’t take you seriously.

Mike Cernovich: Not that the media doesn’t, no but the people don’t, 100%. I’m obsessed over my audience. The difference is, the number one thing on writing is who’s your audience? My audience is not the editors of the New York Times, the CNN film producers. Think you’re a great person, you’re not my audience. I’m not thinking “Is Isobel going to approve of this article, she going to think I really …” That’s not my audience. My audience is directly to people so I obsess over my audience.

I’m very defensive in terms of making sure that I don’t give them bad information, making sure I give them the best information, being accountable of them. Without my audience I’m nothing, news-wise anyway.

Isobel Yeung: Okay, I think I am pretty much good. Am I missing anything?

Speaker 5: No you’re not missing anything. [inaudible 01:19:47] you mentioned SJW support [crosstalk 01:19:54]

Isobel Yeung: You mentioned SJW support, what is that?

Mike Cernovich: SJW is a social justice warrior and the best way to explain that to you or people at HBO or people at Vice, imagine what you think the alt-right is, that is what we think the SJW is but on the left. They’re the people who are incessantly outraged, people creating drama, people trying to publicly shame people, name and shame people, harassing people, bullying people online, doxxing people, that is the essentially what people would consider the alt-right but of the left, that’s a social justice warrior.

Isobel Yeung: Am I a SJW?

Mike Cernovich: No, you’re far left but you’re not a SJW and SJW would fabricate things that I said. I know how editing is going to go and I know narrative structure is going to go and everything. But I’m not concerned that you’re going to say that I tried to sexually harass you or something, right? SJW, I wouldn’t even want in the house because they could just be like “I came to his house, he made his moves on me and this guy is whatever”, those people I won’t even be around. If they say that, you’re fucked, ruin your life, how do you defend against something like that. You’re a hard liberal with your point of view but that’s fine, but I’m not going to be like “Oh god, I hope she doesn’t say something happened that didn’t actually happen.” That’s important and that’s again, what can we do to bring people together, we got to end the hoaxes, we got people posting poop swastikas and stuff like that which isn’t even real.

We got to just make it so that if you state something that people believe it’s factually true, the poop swastika, that’s a hoax, that was a college university, found a swastika that was made of fecal matter and then it turns out that the person who took the picture was the one who did it and it wasn’t a neo-Nazi, it was somebody who was trying to make it look like a neo-Nazi. If I could only change one thing about the media that I think would bring liberals and conservatives together, it would be that I know if I read you or watch you, you might have a point of view but every fact that you say is true. That if you go so and so said this, that I believe that conversation actually happened. Today when I read the news, traditional media, I’m not even there. And you and your people, when you read my news you’re not there either.

Again it all comes down to if people really want to understand who I am or what I do or how I really think, I say just imagine what you think about me, that’s what I think about the New York Times for better or for worse.

Isobel Yeung: It’s sad but it makes sense. Okay, I kind of what to go back to the Syria thing but I also don’t want to. It upsets me to be honest because I mean I know for a fact that what you’re describing is not true.

Mike Cernovich: The migration patterns are true.

Isobel Yeung: Saying people are fleeing the country for economic gain, people are fleeing the country because of mass mass destruction and endless wars.

Mike Cernovich: The men are going for migration. I mean I can show you the pictures where they’re saying don’t get stopped in Denmark. In a way that’s like getting into the weeds. If your point was are there legitimate refugees in Syria? Yes. Then why did you word it that way? As hyperbole. Should you use hyperbole if you’re a journalist? Good point, right.

Isobel Yeung: Should you? Why because you’re obviously spreading a rather biased narrative which …

Mike Cernovich: Because the media claims that Russia hacked the election.

Isobel Yeung: That’s not a reason why …

Mike Cernovich: Sure it is.

Isobel Yeung: The reason why it’s your own viewpoint which is that you want to stop refugees coming into the country, you want to spread fear and hatred …

Mike Cernovich: I want to stop male refugees from coming into the country. Oh yeah, males.

Isobel Yeung: You just want the females.

Mike Cernovich: I don’t want men aged 18 to say 38. After that, men kind of mellow out so if the man is 38, maybe even 35, I’m not sure what the exact cut off would be, but male criminality is 18 to 35, insurance rates are higher.

That’s what’s ironic to me like, in a way a lot of my views on men are more feminist than a lot of feminists. Men aged 16 to 35 are a fucking menace and you have to figure out what you’re going to do about that.

When you invite men aged 16 to 35 who come from a culture where women are generally treated like shit, and you have honor killings and you have acid attacks and everything and you throw them into a world of western culture where women are more equal, you’re just asking for trouble there. That’s something I never really understood.

Isobel Yeung: Do you think you’re helping to bring the left and the right together? Think of it from our view, you’re someone who thinks that, where do I start, that refugees between 16 to 35 should be barred, that liberals want to legalize pedophilia, that Hillary Clinton was running a pedophile sex ring. These claims seem …

Mike Cernovich: I didn’t say she was running. I thought Hillary Clinton was connected, but then the flip side of that is that when people say Russia hacked the election, to me that sounds like a grand conspiracy theory. But people go “It’s sourced.” I go not by named people. And the DNC servers, whenever examined by the FBI, James Comey said that in the testimony, officially in Congress under oath, that the FBI was never given access to the DNC’s private servers which was apparently hacked by Russia but which stands to make a lot of money by, because they do anti-hacking kind of stuff, they make a lot of money if they create hysteria about hacking. That’s the thing, I can slice and dice things coming out of the narrative too, from the left, and I would say, when people say Russia hacked the election, that is every bit as sensationalistic as me saying there’s no such thing as a refugee, which is of course, a hyperbole.

Isobel Yeung: Another tweet of yours here, is there a massive pedophile ring involved in members of Hollywood, the media, and Congress. Do you think we’re pedophiles?

Mike Cernovich: You? Like you personally?

Isobel Yeung: When you say the media, what do you think? What is this obsession with pedophiles?

Mike Cernovich: The media’s obsession with Jimmy Savile covering up that pedophile thing. Dennis Hastert was a pedophile, Jason Schwartz who worked for Bill DeBlasio, Anthony Weiner pedophile. That’d be my question is why are there so many pedophiles? It’s kind of sickening to think about. Robbie Mook, I didn’t show you a picture of Robbie Mook in CNN with Jacon Schwartz who is going to prison for a long time for having child pornography of six month old girls.

You’re not going to find pictures of me with anybody like that. To me I’m like what is crazy about that when I can point to Jeffrey Epstein, big close friend of Bill Clinton, lifetime registered sex offender. But again it’s ultimately you have a point of view and your point of view is to me, a little bit nutty, that Russia hacked the election, there are Russians everywhere.

Isobel Yeung: That’s not my point of view.

Mike Cernovich: Well, it’s the mainstream media’s point of view. What’s your point of view, did Russia hack the election?

Isobel Yeung: I don’t know, if you’re saying Russians are all around us, that’s not really …

Mike Cernovich: Okay, that’s hyperbole, the example.

Isobel Yeung: That’s a lie, yeah.

Mike Cernovich: No it’s not a lie but the idea that everything bad that happened to Hillary Clinton and the DNC hacks on Wikileaks is Russia, Russia, Russia, rhetorically you can say oh my god, there are Russians everywhere, there are Russians in the ceiling. I’m not literally saying there are Russians in the ceiling, but I’m talking about this general panic and paranoia that is being fermented by the mainstream media about Russia and they even said things about me that are laughable. Shauna laughed so hard at this shit that she reads about me because she sees me working everyday and there are all these stories that there are these Twitter bots and Twitter bots spread this Trump stuff and there’s all this money coming to people like me and she’s like “Where, I wish.”

There’s this idea that everything that happens on Twitter is because of bots and everything bad that happened, the DNC hacks, Wikleaks, is because of Russia. To me that strikes me as a conspiracy theory, especially because the DNC never gave their servers to the FBI as James Comey testified to. Again, that’s why there’s value just agreeing to disagree. If you don’t agree with me, okay, I don’t agree with you. You probably think I’m a little bit crazy, I think that you and the media are every bit of crazy. That’s the whole point. I think the Russia stories are crazier than anything I have ever read and you can’t imagine that, just like, I can’t believe this. That’s generally a problem in America. If you talk more …

Isobel Yeung: Do you think it’s going to come out soon, some factual hard evidence that the Clintons were involved in a child pedophilia ring?

Mike Cernovich: I mean it already has with Jeffrey Epstein and Lolita Express and Bill Clinton ditching the Secret Service. That there has already been done. Huma is still with Anthony Weiner. I have text messages from a girl that he messaged where he said, Weiner said of this girl, you have a little girl pussy, stuff like that. I get all the screen-caps and everything, I was going to break that story, but my Twitter DMs, I got too many and I can’t find the DM. It’s a shame though. How did I vet that story, I talked to the girl and she talked to other people. That’s again an example of the kind of … My network is so big now that I had Anthony Weiner’s cellphone number including screen captures of conversations that Anthony Weiner had with a woman. That just goes to show how big the network of one person can be and it grows.

Weiner did, Jacob Schwartz. The Clintons are bad people, but you don’t see me bashing Joe Biden much, you don’t see my bashing Bernie Sanders. Corey Booker, he’s owned by Big Pharma, you don’t see me bashing him, so that’s another thing a lot of people don’t like to focus on is I’m not out there saying “You’re this, you’re that, you’re this, you’re that.” I’m just out there saying I think this is a particular bad person, this is a bad family, these are terrible people, then I call them out. I’m not out there just randomly, I don’t ever just find you on Twitter, oh my god, you’re this or whatever. But yeah there’s a lot of dodgy shit. The BBC covered up Jimmy Savile and that whole pedophile thing so there’s a precedent for that.

Isobel Yeung: You stopped the pedophile thing I’ve noticed, after the election. Did its job.

Mike Cernovich: I still cover it here and there but too many people who were in it for the wrong reasons started getting into it so I did move away for that reason. I’m in touch with a child actor though about Hollywood pedophilia. I’m working on a major story on that. This is a actor that everybody would recognize but I haven’t wrote the story yet. People say “How could you be in touch with …” How can I not be? How could a guy who talks with hundreds of thousands of different people a week, sometimes a million people in a week, how could I not have a random person, randomly just by probability, probability would just say if I talked to a million people or a million people watch me, one of those people are going to be very high level, one of those people are going to be in Hollywood, one of those people are going to be in the media, one of those people are going to be the housekeeper of a certain person, one of those people is going to have texts from Anthony Weiner, right? That’s just statistics.

So in that regard that’s why my sources are so big and then when people say “I don’t really have sources”, I’m just thinking that’s like erroneous thinking because I reach far too many people and have way too much of an impact to actually not have sources. To me it’s actually farcical when people claim I don’t have sources because I would say, just talk to a statisticians, you can do this for your show, you can talk to a statistician and say if Cernovich reaches one million people in America, which it’s probably more but I don’t want to be immodest. Statistically speaking, if Cernovich talks to one million people in America, reaches them, what percentage of those people would be in law enforcement, what percentage would be in Hollywood, what percentage would be in media? What percentage would be, maybe, have access and knowledge about Syria. Yeah, just by random chance alone, you’re going to have connections, you’re going to have sources.

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 01:32:07]

Mike Cernovich: I like to elaborate.

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 01:32:10] That was quite the monologue. Thank you, thank you so much [crosstalk 01:32:14]. Oh yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 3: The room tone silence, just for 30 seconds please, thanks.

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 01:32:45]

Speaker 5: … But the big story the other day was Putin changing his whole spiel on what went on and [inaudible 01:33:00] so I was kind of curious just … I’ll let Isobel [crosstalk 01:33:07]

Mike Cernovich: Yeah, he’s ex-KGB, we can talk about Putin all day. These poor bastards finally want to get out of here but …

Isobel Yeung: President Putin recently changed his mind and said that patriotically minded Russians could potentially have helped to hack the US elections. What’s your take on that?

Mike Cernovich: It’s a mind game. He wants to be perceived as having the power and influence. In that regard you can’t trust anything he says as being underlying truth, you have to think what’s the power-move here, what’s the 40th law of power. That’s when people claim that I’m a dangerous person, [inaudible 01:33:44], wow if people want to be afraid of me then why would I not want people to think I have all this power, why would I not want people to think I talk to Putin or Russians in the Kremlin. When people spread those kinds of stories about me and make me out to be a Bond villain, then that’s great.

Isobel Yeung: [crosstalk 01:33:59]

Mike Cernovich: That’s what I mean, that’s how it’s connected, he’s playing a mind-game with people. He’s saying that …

Isobel Yeung: You think it’s not true.

Mike Cernovich: I don’t know. I wouldn’t trust anything Putin says either way. He’s ex-KGB, president of Russia, he’s a Russian first. I wouldn’t take anything Putin said at face value whether he admits to it or denies it.

Isobel Yeung: Even though he’s admitted it, you don’t think …

Mike Cernovich: He said maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. That’s called being coy, flirtatious, mind-game. It’s a powerful mind game and it creates his own influence and increases his own brand value and makes him look even more powerful and influential than maybe he is.

Isobel Yeung: So even if Putin comes out and admits that yes, the Russians were involved in hacking the DNC, hacking the US elections, you’re still not going to believe that.

Mike Cernovich: I would not believe anything he says, oh no way. If you believe anything Putin says you’re playing right into his game.

Isobel Yeung: What kind of evidence do you need to see to suggest that Russia was involved. [crosstalk 01:34:53] You don’t believe anything that comes from the government, you don’t believe anything that comes from Russia, there’s a lot you don’t seem to believe but at the same time you have a lot of sources that you have a huge amount of trust in.

Mike Cernovich: The kind of people that I have talked to know that the Russia stuff is all bullshit.

Isobel Yeung: You mean they agree with you.

Mike Cernovich: That’s the whole thing you can find everybody to disagree but in terms of evidence, I found it telling that the DNC never gave their hard-drive or their server information to the FBI to examine. They gave it to a third party vendor. To me that’s like what are you hiding? That isn’t what an honest person who is trying to find the truth does. The DNC hack, why did they give it to instead of the FBI? Again James Comey, this is not me making stuff up, James Comey in the testimony said we made several requests, the FBI wanted it, they gave it to instead of us so for me it was fucking bullshit. Okay, if I say I got hacked then I’m going to give my shit to the FBI, I’m not going to say I would give it to this private person I paid millions of dollars to.

Isobel Yeung: If the FBI comes up with evidence to show that Russia hacked the DNC, Russia hacked the US elections, would you believe it?

Mike Cernovich: If there were court trials, criminal trials, and people were on trial with reliable evidence, then I would believe the evidence, yeah. If there were a guy charged with hacking and there were reliable evidence against him, and he was convicted, I would definitely believe that.

Isobel Yeung: Cool.