Recap/Discussion: JRE #2136 Graham Hancock & Flint Dibble
As a longtime listener of the Joe Rogan Experience, I hope that Rogan is given more opportunities to moderate debates on varying subjects. Not only is he a great listener who understands the importance of respectful discourse but he’s also versed enough in topics that interest him to perform such a duty.
Flint Dibble is an archeologist who was gracious enough to debate the writer and explorer, Graham Hancock. Graham Hancock is most recently known for his Netflix docuseries, Ancient Apocalypse. This series, in conjunction with Hancock’s past work, has proved controversial in archeological spaces.
It seems as though Dibble took the opportunity for debate as a means to not only defend archeology but also explain what it is and what makes it so meaningful. The episode opens immediately with Dibble highlighting major aspects of archaeological work. At 08:00, Flint dives into his opposition to Graham’s position by discussing the extensive evidence of hunter-gatherers, as opposed to a theoretical and advanced civilization. Flint also points to a large number of shipwrecks from varying periods of humanity that have been discovered all over the globe (18:53). This point is illustrated to further demonstrate a lack of evidence for an advanced civilization.
Hancock admits early on in the debate that there’s no hard evidence for his position on a proposed lost civilization (1:26:26). I believe that his appearance on this episode had a few goals. The first goal was likely to point out the stonewalling (no pun) that archeological scholars can implement when their work is being opposed. Graham tells a fascinating story about Jacques Cinq-Mars (28:18). Cinq-Mars most notably made a discovery that would ultimately disprove the Clovis-First theory. The discovery centered around animal bones discovered in the Bluefish Caves of Canada, which can be dated around 10,000 years prior to the people of Clovis inhabiting North America. Before he was proven correct, Cinq-Mars endured ostracization, ridicule, and loss of research funding. It would be a few decades before his discovery was given its deserved regard. To further illustrate this point, a video from Tom Dillehay is played where he describes his personal experience when working with archeologists from North America.
Flint contends throughout the podcast that archeology will always stand behind data and evidence, despite a few bad actors that may be operating otherwise in the field.
Despite Graham’s lack of evidence, he seems to be motivated by the vast regions of the world that haven’t undergone archeological investigation. This is understandable as he points out that only 1% of the Sahara Desert hasn’t been excavated and 95% of the Amazon hasn’t been investigated. Then of course there’s the issue of Earth’s oceans, which remain largely shrouded in mystery. Instead of refuting this outright, Flint points to the large number of excavations that have taken place, particularly in the Sahara. The disagreement here between these gentlemen seems to be the amount of excavations versus the overall surface area that is still unaccounted for.
At 43:44, Graham shows underwater photographs from his diving expeditions. The photos show some interesting underwater formations that are suggested to be man-made. Despite not being clear-cut evidence, Graham considers observations such as these to be reason for further investigation, rather than dismissal.
After Graham is given his allotment of time to present the major aspects of his case, Flint then responds with his own presentation (1:08:17). It’s easy to see that Flint is very well prepared for the conversation and does a great job supporting his claims.
At this point of the show, Graham has highlighted stories of how dismissive the archeological community can be and has pled a mild case for his standing. At 2:02:31, Graham points to his own persecution that he’s endured at the hands of Flint. This portion is rather odd as we’re shown direct quotes from Flint where he indeed tried to associate Graham and his work with sentiments of white supremacy and misogyny. People are growing wise to the fact that these connections are typically misguided attempts to discredit the target. Personally, I was impressed with the data and evidence that Flint had to share, so these documented bashes toward Graham are quite confusing. Understandably, this causes the debate to heat up a little bit between the two, which prompts Joe to call for a bathroom break (2:36:44).
The rest of the episode goes very smoothly and takes the shape of a typical JRE episode, chocked with fascinating information.
- 2:44:24 — Göbekli Tepe
- 2:58:19 — Younger Dryas Impact
A few minutes after the Younger Dryas discussion, Flint gives a profound presentation on ancient agriculture and how information on the matter is cultivated. - 3:28:13 — Age of Egyptian monuments
At 3:24:48, before the Egypt conversation, Joe questions Graham about the overall lack of agricultural evidence in the case being presented for lost civilizations. This serves as a concise wrap-up to the debate up to that point.
Graham gives an impressive presentation about the advanced orientation, in astrological relation, of grand structures, such as the Great Pyramids of Egypt (3:50:30).
Flint and Graham then give closing thoughts and remarks with Flint going first (4:10:37). Again, Flint gives a good representation of archeology and cites the imminent dangers that the field is under, including funding.
It’s truly awesome that both men were willing to debate their findings and ideas on the world’s biggest platform. I think the implications of this episode will ultimately transcend the debate topic.
Although both Graham and Flint did well making their respective cases, neither was particularly strong in the actual debate aspect of the conversation. Flint presents good information but seems to have a hard time giving due to anything on the other side of his arguments, especially visually subjective things. As evidenced by Graham’s closing remarks, I believe he seeks to simply open the doors and consideration for his ideas and preliminary contentions. I also felt that Graham assumed that most of the audience viewing the debate was familiar with the information in Ancient Apocalypse. This may have taken the luster out of his argument a bit.
As a huge supporter of both the Joe Rogan Experience and widespread knowledge, I’m glad this debate was able to take place.
