An Interview with Jacob Moore of Pigeons & Planes — PART I

The interview “took place” via email, spanning a four-week period. At the time of the interview, the Pigeons & Planes team were in the midst of a 10-year anniversary whirlwind, which coincided with the release of The Complete Oral History of Pigeons & Planes. When Solace made contact with the outlet’s founder and long-running editor-in-chief, Jacob Moore, we were greeted with a timely reply and an eagerness to conduct the interview.
Jacob Moore asserts that he was not even aware what a blog was when he founded Pigeons & Planes, but his adoration and preoccupation for music would go on to transmute the young blogger from a fan to a tastemaker and esteemed curator. Pigeons & Planes covers music in positive terms; they only write about what they like, which seemingly grants the outlet’s staff, as well as its founder, the luxury of still being fans.
Currently based in New York City, Moore and his Pigeons & Planes team are reevaluating everything. Though specific details are sparse, Moore revealed to our editor-in-chief, Carter Eliot, that the future of Pigeons & Planes would go beyond their being a content platform, with the outlet looking to become a consummate music brand. “Whatever happens next,” noted Moore, “it’s going to be very different from anything we’ve ever done in the past.”
This is the first of a two-part interview Solace undertook with Pigeons & Planes founder and editor-in-chief, Jacob Moore.
Q. Music criticism has historically been littered with acerbic critics — from Lester Bangs to Robert Christgau, famously of the Village Voice. Their commentary can sometimes be aggressive and disparaging, so was the decision to strictly cover music that you like conscious, or was this method something that came to be over time?
Moore.
It kind of just came naturally, but it did take some time to realize that it was a pillar of Pigeons & Planes’ brand. Over the years I’ve argued with a lot of journalists and I feel like I have a much greater appreciation for the role of criticism, but for what Pigeons & Planes is and what our goals have always been, it made more sense to focus on curating the site to reflect our tastes. We really only cover things we like or things we find interesting or important.
That said, we’ve definitely published a few takedowns in the past. It just never felt right, it was like, “Why am I putting so much thought into explaining why I think this piece of art that someone created is bad?” There’s so much good music out there, and I’d much rather focus on stuff we like and support artists who deserve more attention.
Q. In an era that necessitates artists being entrepreneurs while also maintaining their art, do you think that this is stifling output because of consumer factors, or do you think that it is encouraging artists to become more savvy players within the music industry?
Moore.
I don’t think it’s a good or bad thing, really. It’s just the way it is. I do think that right now, labels are seeking artists who build their own brands and have already proven they can do numbers, and that becomes a problem. Right now we’ve got kids getting deals just because they’re good at social media, because all labels are relying on research and data instead of instincts. I don’t think every artist should have to be good at Twitter to get a shot at a music career, so I hope more managers and creatives in the music industry put a little more emphasis on pure artist discovery and development.
For artists, I think it means surrounding yourself with a good team who can fill in the gaps. If you’re not a savvy player, figure out what your goals are and who can help you reach those goals so you can focus on the music. But if some teenager is awesome at social media and can get a career out of that, good for them.
Q. To that point, the recent Citigroup report detailed by Business Insider noted that artists only collected 12% of the $43 billion the music industry generated in revenue for 2017; are there ways that artists are noticeably failing to capitalize on their value? Is there anything that they can do, from your perspective, to combat this issue?
Moore.
There are so many different paths. Streaming and social media really turned the industry upside down, and now you’ve got a lot of really innovative thinkers in a chaotic music business trying out new models and figuring out ways to capitalize. I don’t think there’s any one way to combat this, but I think artists need to think about who they’re signing to and not just go for the deal that looks best on paper.
I was talking to Jon Tanners, a friend who used to write for Pigeons & Planes and now is part of the Keep Cool label, and he said that no matter what deal you’re signing, it’s all about WHO you’re choosing to work with that will determine if it works or not. I think too many artists are trying to cash out quickly and the people they’re partnering with aren’t always necessarily looking out for the artist’s best interests. Find people who genuinely believe in you, who are going to fight for you, and who want to see you succeed, not just write you a check and hope they make it back — plus some.
Q. You have stated before that when you graduated from college, it was during the “peak of the financial crisis” and that you were unable to find employment. At what moment did it strike you that it would be a worthwhile experience to do something on an independent level and how long after that did it take you to find the wherewithal to put Pigeons & Planes together?
Moore.
At the time, I just had no other choice. I tried to reach out to people in the music industry and tried to write for other blogs and was applying to random jobs that had anything to do with music, but I just couldn’t get a job or find an in. That’s why I started Pigeons & Planes, and once I started it I just enjoyed it so much that I was happy to put a lot of time and effort into it. It wasn’t until years later that I’d figured out how to turn it into a semi-legitimate business, but the initial process of wanting to start a blog and then doing it was like a 30-minute thing. I probably literally Googled “how do you start a music blog” and then set it up right after.
Q. Ten years have passed, Pigeons & Planes has seen many artists come, go, evolve, and turn into massive stars of varying degrees; what has it been like to witness the evolution of the online music world?
Moore.
It’s incredible, it’s really exciting. For me, I think the initial discovery is always the most exciting part, but it’s so cool to see an artist you found when they were just getting started and seeing all those steps they take as they get more popular and successful.
I remember when artists like Kendrick, A$AP Rocky, and the Weeknd were first really bubbling and the transition into superstars took a while, and now it seems like it can happen over night. Juice WRLD’s rise was insane, and there are kids out there like Dominic Fike who I think are going to have that same immediate impact once they get going.
Q. Do you think that the road to superstardom being so quick will yield dramatic crashes when success isn’t bankable? Are labels seeing these acts as superstars or do you think they may be blowing smoke, regardless of their market share?
Moore.
I think we’ll definitely see some crashes. Some artists will figure it out quickly and it will work, but sometimes everything happens too fast. Kids getting signed off having a few songs blow up online don’t always have it all figured out, so when they get thrown into an insane industry and they’re expected to make a return on the investment right away, there will be problems. A lot of people can make good songs, but can they perform? Can they handle the pressure of touring and recording? Are they ready for all the attention, money, and the problems that come with those things? And can they grow and evolve before people get bored and move on to the next new thing?
Q. Hip-hop is obviously the dominant genre but rock-and-roll is still very much alive all over the world. From acts in Australia like King Gizzard & the Lizard Wizard to American artists like Mac DeMarco, rock-and-roll in its various forms is still alive and well; where do you think a genre with that much history can go to be unique? Does it revolve around the songwriting and melody-making, or is it about the genre’s seemingly pisspoor marketing?
Moore.
It’s a little of both. Hip-hop is constantly changing so much, moving in new directions, and building scenes around these new approaches to a genre that’s still relatively new. In rock, so many bands are still using the same formats that we’ve been hearing for decades. That’s fine — a good song is a good song — but I’m interested to see what kind of new styles and scenes emerge in rock music. I think we need some new rock stars, like potential icons and exciting figures who take risks, push things forward, and make a real cultural impact. I think that’s lacking right now, and to me at least, it’s just not a super exciting time for rock music. That said, that means it’s the perfect time for something new and different to take off. I love all the young D.I.Y. kids who are doing different kinds of pop and rock, and I think a few more of them are going to prove to be stars in the comings years.
Q. Who are some young acts in that emerging pop/rock space that you think are poised for big years?
Moore.
I love MorMor, I think he’s going to be an important artist. I don’t even know what I’d call Choker’s music, but he’s a special one. I’m a big fan of Japanese Breakfast, Superorganism, Omar Apollo, and I think Clairo has star potential. Yellowdays is awesome, Suzi Wu is really cool, Billie Eilish is a star in the making. The most interesting ones to me are the ones who are hard to classify. Even if the music rooted in rock or pop, it doesn’t sound like things that have already been done. Snail Mail, Bakar, Cautious Clay, there are so many new artists who I’m excited about who are orbiting in that rock and pop world. I’m probably forgetting more of my favorites, but those are some that come to mind right now.
Q. It appears that 2018 is a massive year for music in general. Bedroom pop acts are turning into mainstream players and artists from SoundCloud found million dollar contracts, are we on the verge of a music industry gold rush?
Moore.
Absolutely. But things are changing so fast that I think by the time any bubbles burst, there will be other opportunities. It’s a really exciting, uncertain time with new opportunities every day, and some new game-changer could be right around the corner, changing everything again.
Q. Failure is part and parcel of entrepreneurship and definitely of writing. Be it reality establishing its dominance over you or terrible timing, can you share some experiences with failure and the lessons you learned from those experiences?
Moore.
I’m really hard on myself and never happy with my work, so I see a lot of the things I did as failures. I’m so proud of Pigeons & Planes and what we’ve built, but I feel like the biggest failures are the missed opportunities. Any time I put all my focus into one thing, I’m missing opportunities elsewhere. The lesson I learned is that you need to always be trying new things, even if you think what you’re dong is working. At times, I was so set on my goals with Pigeons & Planes that I missed out on a lot.
To that point though, I’ve always been a very independent, introverted person with a lot of anxiety. That’s one of the reasons blogging worked so well for me at first — I could do it without interacting with or relying on other people. As Pigeons & Planes grew, I started connecting with more people through the Internet and built a solid little team of online collaborators, but I still avoided much offline interaction. One of the people I started talking to online in the early days of Pigeons & Planes was Jon Tanners. We bonded over our love of underground hip-hop, especially Def Jux, and he started working on a piece documenting the label’s history. He had thousands of words down but wanted to talk more about it in person, and we both lived in New York City. So, I reluctantly agreed to meet him at some burger place in the East Village, and we instantly clicked over beer and conversation about rap. He became one of my best friends and most trusted Pigeons & Planes contributors.
I don’t know if Jon realizes it, but that was a turning point for me. It showed me the power of connecting with other people and the importance to get out more, meet the people I work with face to face, and put more effort into strengthening those bonds. I still hate networking and pointless meetings, but I’ve learned to accept that I have to get out of my comfort zone, take meetings, and build relationships in real life. That’s helped me be a more effective leader, opened up so many doors for new opportunities, and to this day some of my best friends are the people I’ve met through Pigeons & Planes. If I just stayed online and kept to my little internet bubble, Pigeons & Planes would have never grown into what it is today. So thank you to Def Jux, Jon Tanners, and beer.
Q. With video and audio becoming increasingly dominant modes of consumption for digital audiences, how does Pigeons & Planes hope to evolve with the industry while continuing to build on your already substantial presence?
Moore.
We’re thinking a lot about this now. Depending on when [this piece is published], you’ll notice we’ve slowed down with website content, and it’s because right now we’re stepping back and reevaluating everything. I spoke about this a little bit in The Complete Oral History of Pigeons & Planes, but we’re considering a whole new approach to [what we do]. I can’t talk about specifics yet because we’re still mapping it out, but it’s definitely all about what we want to be. We want to be a music brand, not just a website or a content platform. Whatever happens next, it’s going to be very different from anything we’ve ever done in the past.
Q. I am sure that a lot of early readers were scared about what the Complex deal would mean for Pigeons & Planes, but I’m very curious what that experience was like for you. What were the circumstances leading up to the deal, how did you feel going into it, and how do you feel now that time has passed and the dust has settled?
Moore.
Before the Complex deal, I was making some money off of Pigeons & Planes but not enough to live off. It wasn’t sustainable. So when Complex offered a full-time job and a chance to work on Pigeons & Planes for a living, that was the dream. There are always difficulties that come with being a small brand under a bigger brand, but that deal was what allowed me to focus on Pigeons & Planes and do what I love for all these years, and we’ve always been a small team but super scrappy and resourceful. I look back on it fondly, and I’m so appreciative that Noah, the editor-in-chief at Complex at the time, gave me a shot. It changed the course of my life and I’ve learned so much over my 6 years at Complex.
Q. As a publisher that can establish and even make a young artist’s career, do you feel a sense of responsibility to be a consistent arbiter of quality, or is the intent to act in some capacity as artist development? Moreover, due to the positive nature of Pigeons & Planes’ reporting, is their constructive criticism and dialogue between the artists and the writers/editorial staff?
Moore.
I do feel a sense of responsibility to support quality. Everyone has a different opinion about what’s quality music and what’s not, but when we find an artists we believe in, we will try and support however we can. There are some artists who I’m constantly talking to, bouncing around ideas and giving feedback, trying to connect dots and put them in a good position. There is a lot of constructive criticism, both with artists and with the staff. A lot of arguing, disagreements, and everyone is always trying to make everyone else better at what they’re doing.
Development is so important to me, and in today’s fast-paced environment, I see less of that than ever before. Everyone wants things to be immediate, but I’ve always believed that the more time and thought you put into something, better it will be.
Q. What are some things that A&Rs and critics who keep in touch with artists can do to help them develop as musicians and creators? Are there any key things you have noticed throughout that years that you would like to share?
Moore.
I think with a lot of artists, it’s just exposing them to new things. Whether it’s music they haven’t heard, or just inspiring, cool shit that might spark an idea, I think that’s the most helpful thing. Sometimes I’ll get really specific and be like, “At this point in this song, what if you tried doing this?” But generally, it’s just bouncing around ideas, linking artists with other artists, and talking about the music that I think can be most helpful. Especially now that I’m a little older and the artists I’m talking to are sometimes so young, I think there are entire worlds they haven’t been exposed to yet, and that’s a pool of potential inspiration.
