#GirlsWhoProduct: Melanie Tobias

After having worked on several projects that delivered outputs, yet no tangible outcomes, Melanie has decided to move into a Product role at Zalando, Berlin. A mother of 6-year old twin girls, Melanie manages to balance together a happy motherhood with her personal passions and new challenges in the product profession.
Listen to this interview and discover how achieving balance in a family can help you become a good professional.
By Katsiaryna Drozhzha on November 7th, 2019
On being new in Product…
K: Melanie, you have recently switched into a product profession. How do you feel in your new role?
That’s right, I moved into a product role at the beginning of this year and I’m working now with Zalando’s Checkout team. Before moving into product, I was a senior project manager at Zalando. In previous roles, I was already taking on some product responsibilities and over time, I got more passionate about product management. It was mid of last year when a senior Product Manager whom I was working with nudged me to switch professions. I am glad I found the courage to do so and super grateful for the support I got from experienced colleagues who helped me prepare for the transition. There is still a lot to learn before I truly master the profession. After all, it’s a very exciting field. And truly rewarding to see the impact that I can make.
K: You’ve mentioned that before moving to product, you have worked on several projects that were delivering outputs, but no tangible outcomes. What is the difference between the outputs and outcomes in fashion e-commerce?
Projects in fashion e-commerce have deliverables such as building a new feature, redesigning parts of the website or building tooling for internal users. I’ve experienced projects in which we were in the middle of delivery and only then realized that not all involved parties were aligned on the desired outcome. When that’s the case, chances are high that no one will be using the new feature that you’re developing. Or that that you’ve redesigned something which looks different, yet doesn’t do anything better for the customer. That’s a wasted opportunity because you could have invested the same time and effort into doing something more impactful by solving a clearly defined customer problem.
However, you certainly can’t be right all the time. There will be situations in which your solution doesn’t yield the outcomes that you were hoping for. After all we’re basing most solution ideas on assumptions that need to be validated and not on facts. The key is to minimize the failure ratio through validating the riskiest assumptions early on.
K: When switching to a career in product management, how to choose a product that really suits your interests and talents?
Choosing the right product to work on is important and definitely not easy in the beginning. I suggest starting from basis:
1) become more aware of what your own strengths are
2) Think about what kind of products that you would potentially enjoy working on.
When I was looking for a product opportunity within Zalando, I realized that there were many open positions for different kinds of products in very different fields. I needed to narrow down the set of opportunities to what was interesting to me. I found it helpful to ask myself questions such as: “What kind of product do I want to work on?” “Is it a back end or a front end product?” “Is it a product that has many stakeholders within the company, or it is a more isolated product?” “Is it an existing product that I can iterate and optimize on, or is it an entirely new product?”
I also talked to people who knew more about the vacancies and could help me understand who are the customers and stakeholders of the product. And what are the challenges that the product and the teams are facing at the moment, as well as the upcoming opportunities. If what you learn this way sounds interesting and feels in line with your own abilities, that’s a good starting point.
For me personally, it’s not just about finding the right product, though. But also about the people you’ll be working with on that product. So I recommend looking at who is actually going to be with you on the team. You should ask yourself if you can grow with these people and build a connection.
K: You told me that you’ve started using e-commerce during your pregnancy. I suppose having this “customer” experience at the first hand could have helped you in your new product role. Is it important to use the product you create/manage?
I’ve used e-commerce also before getting pregnant. However, when I was pregnant, I started using e-commerce obsessively. Due to certain complications, I had to stay in bed for three months. That’s when I started ordering literally everything online. And I loved the convenience and flexibility of getting everything sorted without going outside. That definitely triggered my interest in applying at Zalando to work in an e-commerce company.
Overall, I do believe it is important to use the product that you manage. It can help you understand your users and their struggles. It is important to know, though, that an actual consumer might use your product completely differently. So don’t get biased!
In a B2B environment, you will probably not always be using your own product. You can try and play around with it, but you’ll likely not use it in your daily life. Which doesn’t mean that you can’t be a good product manager for it. In this case, it’s even more important to regularly speak with the actual users of the system to understand their use cases and struggles. Ideally even observing them on how they use your product on the job.
On being a mother…
K: Melanie, you are a happy mother of twin girls. No doubt that motherhood is bringing a lot of joy, but also a lot of worries and responsibilities. Nevertheless, you have not stopped “experimenting” with your professional career even after taking over this important role. Wasn’t it scary to start “growing” from scratch”, knowing that you have two kids to feed?
When I became pregnant, I already knew that I wouldn’t be able to go back to the exact same job that I was doing before simply because it involved a lot of traveling. At that time I was in a sales position, responsible for insurance clients in another city. So I used my maternity leave to think carefully about what I wanted to do afterward.
It was clear to me that I wanted to stay in a customer-facing role. Yet not in sales. So I started to look into ways of developing my skills whilst being on parental leave. I invested time into obtaining a project management certification. And consulted startups as part of a business plan competition to help them sharpen their value proposition. Keeping in touch with business this way was good and raised me confidence to start something new.
When I returned to work, my employer back then wasn’t able to offer me a customer-facing position in Berlin. But I was lucky that they were very supportive and helped me getting a job at one of their Berlin based clients in the insurance sector.
K: When seeking maternity leave back 6 years ago, how challenging was it for you to communicate with your employer these two essential questions: “ How much time can I take off?” and “How much of that time I will be paid?”
It definitely was a surprise for my lead. However, the overall conditions in Germany are quite straightforward when it comes to how much time you can take off and how much you get paid. I wanted to stay roughly a year at home with my kids. It happened to be in line with the parental allowance that exists in Germany, where you can stay up to 14 months on paid parental leave. My partner also took the opportunity to take three months off which was very helpful.
The most challenging part was the uncertainty of what I will be doing when I return. This felt quite uncomfortable back then. And was even more worried when my former lead moved to a new role while I was on parental leave. This meant that I needed help from a new manager that I had never worked with, to find a new job outside of this team.
K: It’s never easy being a mum trying to juggle a full-time job with a family life. How do you manage to find the work-family balance?
I’m lucky to have a partner who shares responsibilities with me. We arranged it in such a way that I’m picking up kids from childcare three days a week. He does two days a week. That gives me two days of more action time to work where I can be available for meetings somewhat longer. Additionally, we try to outsource certain activities, such as getting help on cleaning our home and getting our groceries delivered. Like this we buy ourselves a little bit of time. I’m also not working full time, but just four days a week, which gives me a bit more family time.
K: How difficult was it for you to negotiate this four-day workweek?
M: It was easier than I expected. I found a good moment in time to ask for it. At that point in time, I was already a couple of years with the company and had built up a reputation. My lead told me that he did not particularly like the idea, but that he was going to support it. It was a happy coincidence that his wife just came back from parental leave, and was working four days per week as well. If I was to apply to a different company, it would probably be difficult to get such an arrangement from the start. Most companies are quite hesitant in the first place about 4-day working weeks. So you need some time to prove yourself and build up a reputation first.
K: A lot of working mums suffer from the feeling of guilt of not spending enough time with their kids. Have you ever experienced something like that?
Yes, I think almost every working mother experiences sometimes like this once in a while. I’ve never questioned in general on whether I would be going back to work, or not. It was always clear to me that I will continue pursuing my professional career after a year of parental leave. My own mother stayed at home for two and a half years back then. And afterward, she was always working full time. So it felt kind of natural for me and in line with my own childhood experiences. This is why my parents also never put pressure on me to stay at home. This is certainly helpful.
Over the years I learned that not every day is the same. There are days with more time and balance towards family, and there are days with a bit more stress at work. After all, it’s not about the amount of time that you spend with your kids and family, but rather the quality of time that you spend. So I am trying to seize the family moments by putting my smartphone aside and being fully present.
K: Paulo Coelho once said, “A child can teach an adult three things: to be happy for no reason, to always be busy with something, and to know how to demand with all his might that which he desires.” What are the lessons that you’ve learned from your girls? Can you apply them to your work?
I definitely learned a lot from my daughters. I will try to nail it down to the most important things. I think the first point is definitely empathy that I’ve learned from my kids. As a parent, when you’re confronted with a toddler having a tantrum, you try to understand what is so frustrating for the kid. Because this is the only way that you can actually address the problem. It is not worth saying, “Oh, we don’t throw around things!” You’ll need to get to the root of the problem. And that’s certainly something which is pretty relevant for anyone in product. It’s all about having empathy for the pains and problems of the customer. And at the same time, empathy is also helpful in personal interactions within the team. When you ask yourself, why a colleague reacts in a certain way. For example, instead of complaining about a colleague not responding quickly. You might just approach him or her and say “I see that you are pretty busy right now. Let me know if there is something I can help you with.” In my experience, it completely changes the relationship and conversation for the better. Over some time, empathy gets you to a more effective working relationship.
The other thing that I learned from my kids, is staying curious. A child has certain curiosities that you often forget about when growing up. For example, trying to understand simple things, such as “Why is the sky blue?” and “What kind of noise does a zebra make?” Luckily, the internet is pretty helpful in these regards. And I’m really trying to take time helping my kids to answer their questions. Applying the same level of curiosity and asking lots of questions is super important in product too. It’s the best way to learn and challenge old assumptions.
And the third thing is very specific for someone who has twin kids. Thanks to them, I realized that everyone is unique, even if you are born on the same day, raised in the same way, and getting the same education. Despite all these same preconditions, my kids have both their very unique talents, likes and dislikes. And I am trying to not compare them because there are not similar, but two unique individuals. This inside is very important when dealing with customers and dealing with colleagues.
On women in Product Leadership…
K: How to prepare for a product interview, from your personal experience?
One thing is, obviously, doing research around the product that you’re applying to. My advice is: Try to gain as much insight as possible. If it’s a consumer-facing product, use the product yourself. Try to understand what could be KPIs, what are certain challenges and problems around it.
A good technique is to get more confidence for the actual interviewing process. Reach out to colleagues who are doing interviews for product positions and ask them what kind of questions they typically ask. Or what have they been asked when they were interviewed for their current job. You can also ask someone to do a random sample interview around product methodologies. This way, you will get a lot of feedback and confidence. And you’ll be surprised how supportive most people are when you ask for their help.
K: There is no university course on Product Management. A lot of women might find it challenging to collect sufficient knowledge and skills in puzzle to gain recognition. You personally have attended Project Management Institute. You are also a certified Scrum Product Owner. How helpful did you find those courses?
I did attend the Product Owner Dojo. This is where I obtained the formal Scrum Product Owner certification. The training was very helpful. There were a lot of different product professionals from various companies who focused on innovation during three days of intense training. We practiced many different techniques, starting with interviewing random customers, to building small video based prototypes and pitching an idea.
My certifications in the area of project management were at the Project Management Institute. I took self-paced learning and received a certificate afterward. It was helpful for me at that time, but I don’t believe it’s required for a product position. Instead, there are nowadays very good courses in product management on Coursera. These are a good starting point. At Zalando, we also used to have an innovation lab where it was possible to pitched ideas. And selected ideals were developed further during a design sprint. Participating in this kind of real-life learning experiences, together with other colleagues, is something that I definitely recommend to anyone.
K: As for a woman, do you find it difficult to stand out in your working environment? Especially taking into consideration that you need to deal with so many stakeholders?
We are lucky to have quite a few female product managers at Zalando. It was rather in previous jobs and companies that I’ve been the only woman in a lot of situations. This can be challenging, indeed. The most important thing in these situations is to have a lead that supports you. And you can also try to take the situation to your advantage. If no one expects you to be competent because you’re young and female, they’ll likely underestimate your abilities. This is a chance to surprise them with your expertise.
K: And in dealing with clients and stakeholders, do you stand by or stand out from the crowd?
In check out, we are working with a lot of stakeholders. It’s challenging, sometimes, simply because there are always many ideas and stakeholder requests. And we certainly cannot implement all of them. Most of the time, I enjoy the process of aligning with stakeholders around the common problems that we are trying to solve.
K: Do you have any regrets, looking back at your professional career?
There are certain things that I would do differently based on the knowledge and experience that I have right now. I do believe though that every mistake and every failure helped me grow. There was one thing that I probably would do differently. When I finished my studies, I was super passionate and ambitious about getting to work. That is why I postponed my Masters . Now, looking back, I probably should have done it right away. Because it seems to get less likely that I do my Masters with every year that passes without starting.
K: And the last word. What advice would you give for women who want to get to product leadership but are afraid of doing so?
It’s natural for many women to underestimate their own abilities. The first thing that I recommend is to speak out that you want to get into product leadership! It is something that changes your own perception and commitment. Then, talk to people who have no own interest in keeping you at your current position. Ideally, this would be a product leader who knows you and your capabilities. Ask him or her what makes a good product manager. Reflect which of these traits you have already. And seek advice on how you can develop the capabilities that you’re still lacking. Getting a professional mentor in the field can be a great help in that regard. A good mentor keeps pushing you instead of playing you down. Last but not least: Just give it a try and don’t be afraid to fail.
K: Thank you, Melanie, for joining us. It was a great conversation and I’m sure our listeners will learn a lot from your experience!
Thank you, Katerina.
Get connected with Melanie by email at melanie.tobias@zalando.de , or drop her a message on LinkedIn.
Melanie recommends must 📚 on product and leadership:
On Product Management:
The Lean Startup by Eric Ries
On Time Management:
Make Time by Jake Knapp & John Zeratsky
To broaden one’s horizons and stay curious:
Brief Answers to the Big Questions by Stephen Hawking
