Kosuke Okahara: Interview
Part Two
In December 2014 I interviewed Japanese photographer Kosuke Okahara about “Ibasyo”, a photographic project that documents the lives of six young Japanese girls who suffer from self-harm. Okahara created six handmade books as the final avatar of this work and put out a call to anyone who might be interested in the book:
The second half of the books are blank pages. I kindly ask you to write anything you feel. It can be just a thought about the pictures, or a message to the girls, or anything you wish to write down. Even a very short text is fine. I appreciate your kindness.
After letting the books float around for a certain amount of time, I want to bring these six books back to the six girls I photographed, so that they can see there are people out there who recognizes their existence.
In part one of my discussion about Ibasyo, I discuss my experience viewing and writing in the book. Okahara agreed to spend an hour with me speaking about the decade long journey that lead to this “experiment”, this book-journey project. Here is the full text of our conversation:
Alisha Sett: When did you start the project?
Kosuke Okahara: 2004.
And how did the idea come to you?
I met a girl who had a habit to cut herself. We started talking and became friends. And she said — it’s in my book title — she doesn’t feel “Ibasyo”. Ibasyo means emotional, or even physical, space where you feel you can exist. It could be social status, maybe house, it could be nice family.
She said she cannot feel this “Ibasyo” and that’s what I also felt when I was kid. So I felt kind of close… I saw the scars.
I started some research. At that time I was looking for a project in Japan, I wanted to do something in my country but wasn’t many interesting things. I felt like it has to be a good reason to do a project for me.
Is the concept of “Ibasyo” something talked about quite commonly in Japan?
Yes. Not really everyday because if you’re happy with what you’re doing and who you are then you don’t feel the need to talk about it.
But many people who is excluded or don’t feel really right in what they’re doing… How to explain? It’s difficult to explain.
Maybe describe your lack of “Ibasyo” as a child.
My father was an alcoholic so it was quite violent family. I felt like maybe I should not exist… I shouldn’t have been born or something.
How did you break out of that?
I grew up, and became bigger and stronger. And my father became weaker as he ages, and he stop doing this kind of habit. (Laughs)
So that changed the equation.
Yes.
Also, when I finished school, I started photography. I was doing some part time job in the school I was studying. And then what people told me is, “Hey! Don’t do something stupid. Just get some job. You’ve never done photography, why you’re saying you’re going to be a photographer?”
I took some pictures. It was not good. So they said, “You’re not talented. Don’t do this”.
Some of my friends came to see me who were studying at the school and they said, “Hey — what’re you doing? You just graduated. You didn’t get any job?”
Especially in Japanese society you feel lots of pressure when you’re not doing well, when you don’t find what you want to do. I found what I want to do but people think I’m just following my dream. They felt it doesn’t make sense.
So yes, that kind of feeling. (Laughs again)
Once you started your research, you found an online community where you could find people for your project?
Its called Mixi. It’s like Facebook in Japanese. I posted that I want to do this project and if anyone interested or if anyone can help me out. And I explained what I wanted to do and my aim.
What did you say was your aim?
I wrote about why I want to do this. And how I want to do this.
What was the how and the why?
I felt this was a very deep issue in Japan. Which is still hidden. Not too hidden, but individual level it’s kind of hidden. They don’t want to talk much openly. It’s very sensitive.
Also I wrote that this is documentary so if possible I want to spend as much time as possible. I said I want to stay in the room. I want to, kind of, live with them. And I said I don’t want to hide anything. I don’t want to put some black thing on their eyes to hide their face.
For me, photography is the kind of process to recognize people I photograph so if I do this (black out portions of people’s faces or bodies) it’s very opposite — then I deny the existence. Photography… when you’re covering the face — what do you see? You make them as taboo. I feel like it’s just not right.
So I wrote this kind of thing and also put my phone number, email. Then people started calling me or emailing me. Some people misunderstood… they ask “How much you pay? Is it a model thing?” Some people understood and were quite okay.
First one came to me after few weeks. I went to see her and then talk to her and then started shooting. She said, “Yeah, you can stay at my house”. I said, “Thank you”. That’s how I started.
Was it difficult to establish these relationships?
No secret. Some people are just open enough, you just meet and immediately they’re okay. Sometimes, you need to take time. Sometimes, it doesn’t work out. There’s no real secret to get access.
I explain the project well. For this case, I also talk about maybe the bad effect it might have. Because I want to publish, I want to have exhibition, I want to have maybe book. I explained I try to protect as much as I can but there might be some unthoughtful criticism that make them feel bad. At the end I didn’t receive any negative comments on them though.
I told them I don’t disagree if people say I’m exploiting…. Whatever… It’s true I’m going to make money out of this. I don’t think I can make more money then I spend but I said that it’s also true when I publish, which means I sell, I get money. So I wanted to let them know the facts even if my intention was telling the story. Simply, I didn’t want to hide anything.
I met twenty… maybe thirty people.
What was it about self-harming that made you think this is a good project?
I shot people who self-harm but it’s not actually about self-harm. I think it’s about how how one can actually recognize one’s self. How one can actually see herself or himself as important.
What I found while shooting this story is that self-injury is basically not the main issue… of course cutting is a problem but… the most important thing I found was how it’s important to have self-esteem.
I felt like they don’t have self-esteem. They couldn’t develop self-esteem. So one of them said to me, “I don’t know how to love myself. People say you have to take care of yourself but I don’t know how”. Because she had some experience that really denied her so she feels very guilty being in this world.
How did you help them process these thoughts?
I talked about myself as well and while I’m shooting we shared many things. I talked about my father, I talked about my life and then they talked about their life. So in a way it was very intimate but of course we are not talking all the time like this. We became like friends so we talk about stupid things as well.
So was your personal experience, of thinking about self-harming in your own childhood, essential here?
There are many great photographers out there who never experience what the people who they shoot do but they took great pictures and communicate very well.
Whereas I have similar kind of experience but the picture could really sucks!
It depends. Some people do great work without personal experience. For me, it’s okay to have experience but the dangerous thing now is that… Let’s say a person has some difficult experience and then he/she is shooting pictures of people who have same experiences. It sounds very legitimate but you cannot use your experience as an excuse to shoot somebody. It’s a different people. Even if you have similar experience it’s not exactly the same. How you feel is not exactly the same so at the end you just end up using your experience as an excuse to shoot pictures. At the end, I feel your just using… you’re just using them to do what you want… by using your experience.
I don’t think it’s important. It’s also too easy. If you say I’ve had a similar type of experience, okay, but then you don’t think enough.
For me, whatever I do is very connected. The subject I choose, and the way I photograph. I can’t explain… whatever I shoot it’s very related to this title ‘Ibasyo’. The way I photograph… my pictures are kind of simple, its not very complicated. I really want to try to capture the existence in the picture. When people look at the picture, I want them to feel that they actually exist here, that its not only paper.
Tangible existence?
‘Ibasyo’ means how you can actually exist. You need somebody to recognize you to exist.
Lets say if you come here (to the Angkor Festival) and then no one talks to you, you feel so excluded right? You come here and people welcome you, they get to know your face, name and they treat you well. You feel like you can be here. I think that feeling is very important for everybody.
And do you think photography can do that better than most mediums? Create this sense of existence?
I don’t know. Could be. But not every photo can do. You never know.
You say in the book that ‘I could not have imagined that the pictures I took could be of any help’ but it seems that this project in the form of these traveling handmade books has found a way to be of some help. What was the process of deciding that this would be the form for the project? How long did it take to have this realization?
I wanted to publish this. I was about to publish a book but finally the publisher said no. I was thinking about how I could get published… then I applied for this book prize in Europe. If you win they publish your book in five languages. I was a finalist but I didn’t win.
Then I was saving some money to publish this book but I was also thinking if just publishing book is right to tell the story? Okay, publishing books, distributing it… yes, you can tell the story but there are many books out there. Just publishing, publishing, publishing… that’s fine because that’s the fundamental way to communicate but at the same time I was feeling it’s not really enough. There’s something missing.
Of course telling a story is what they (i.e., the girls) also wanted based on what we discussed but I felt who is going to take advantage of the book? First, it has to be them.
I was not really feeling comfortable just to publish, even by myself. Then maybe last year around January I was thinking what to do. And of course when I started shooting they said they want to see the pictures. They want to see themselves from the outside. To understand, to look at themselves, to understand what they’re doing. So every time I published in magazines I was sending the magazines to the girls and they were quite happy.
I knew they need to look at pictures, they want to. So when I published a book, of course I was going to give them.
At the same time, I talked to people. I was also at that time interested in doing something new. I was kind of bored…
Now, everyone says that the financial situation is going down. That we have to find another way to do things. Then I wonder… we always talk about money and money is important to carry on the project and then we talk about crowd-funding. And it’s important thing. I paid for some of my friends projects but then I wonder who finances the projects… I guess it’s basically people like me who is in the same industry… then the question is if we can bring the story to the people who are not in the photo industry... of course this is my challenge too.
So far, I have quite a few people who have nothing to do with photography who showed their interest and I am happy about it.
If you had published this as a traditional book it would have sold well. Probably most books you will create now will sell well. Does that make you feel unless you create out-of-the-box forms like ‘Ibasyo’ it will become quite easy for you and your work to just become another product? I guess any photographer who sees success has to struggle with that question…
I don’t know about others. But for me I couldn’t find a good reason to do just a book. And this work… because of my previous book… I knew I could sell quite well. This work has been around for quite a long time; many years people know this work. It’s not actually new at all.
This work in particular I got lots of email from people I don’t know. They talked about the issue. But I couldn’t find a good reason to publish it so that’s why I didn’t. I couldn’t first but then I didn’t.
At the same time I was interested in this flow of information using internet and communicating. But I felt that if you put those images on the flow of information because flow is so fast it becomes like news pictures — you publish and the next day it’s old. Why I have to put these photographs on the flow of information which makes the pictures go so fast?
So picture has to be not on the information but I can use the information… to spread information. That was the idea.
I also wanted to do something for the girls. And it has to be tangible. I can just get comments by email or whatever but it’s not right… it’s not tangible.
Why is the tangible element so important for you?
Because when you receive a physical letter versus an email you feel very different.
How long do you think this journey will take for the books to travel back to the girls in Japan?
I don’t know, but it is taking more time than I expected. So probably in 2–3 years.
When the book was traveling in Europe, some art students borrowed the book. And they did something very nice, they draw something with a message, it’s very beautiful.
Where did the idea for keeping half the book for writing come from?
I thought that if the girls can see the trace of people, it’ll be good. If it’s just borrowing the book you don’t see much but if they write something it really shows they recognize the girls.
But also I had this worry… not really worry… If you write first, you know people are going to read what you write so I feel that people some people more honest, some people less honest because they’re shy. Or maybe they feel kind of obligation… I have to write something nice. Even if the person doesn’t really feel this way. Maybe that happens. But it’s interesting to me because it’s actually how society is made.
When the book goes to the girls I have to translate because some of them don’t speak English. For them it’s important because they have hearts which are made of glass. When they stress in their normal life they cut themselves. I am hoping they also see how the world is constructed, how the society is constructed. So far it seems people are very helpful and giving something very honest and touching. I said that something negative might happen too but at the end it seems they will find the world is full of care.
The book becomes a small reflection of society for them.
That’s what I’m hoping. It’s nice that it’s organic.
You wrote in the book that keeping people informed is important for you and that you always want to see what you can do for the people you photograph. Is this a concern for all your projects?
I don’t really know. Photography cannot really do something to the people. Maybe at the end it comes back to people. Maybe… but it doesn’t happen most of the time.
The kind of photography I do is shooting some particular subject. So I don’t think it helps much.
You have to think about it with every project. You know you can’t do much but it’s important to think about the subject first.
When did you realize what it took to communicate well? Or recognize that simplicity of style is something you wanted to maintain?
Maybe after 2007 when I went to shoot this leprosy village in China.
I have a friend who was a volunteer in one of the villages. He kept asking me, “Lets go, lets shoot story” but I couldn’t find good reason to shoot story. The reason why those ex-leprosy patients are discriminated, kicked out their house or home, is basically the appearance. So what’s the reason to photograph those people? To show their appearance is not good?
After a few times we discussed, my friend started telling me, “Disease is actually going to finish… going to end. Now, medicine is available. And every year less and less patients”. Most of the patients are old and they’re going to die anyway. He said, “Maybe the disease will be gone in 20 years or 30 years but then maybe how they actually lived, the history of those people, it might actually end or diminish”. He said he doesn’t know if it’s the right thing to lose history of those people. Disease will be gone — is good — but the history might also be gone.
So suddenly you had a reason.
Yes. I felt for that reason I can photograph.
But when I went I wasn’t sure how I can photograph… If I shoot appearance it’s going to be bad, its going to create another discrimination. So I was thinking how can I shoot this.
So then I thought the most important thing is that people recognize that they are here. That’s important. If they can feel that they can exist here, that’s important.
And you give a sense of beauty throughout the book. As you enter the place, through the images, you don’t think about disease. You almost get the sense that you’re entering a haven.
I just focus on capturing the existence in the picture. Which I don’t actually know or see when I’m clicking. I focus when I’m shooting not on a concrete idea… I don’t know how but trying to capture the existence of the people.
And of course I can’t see it! When you’re clicking you don’t see it. It’s just your idea or what you’re trying to do.
There are not much moments you know. People are just there. They don’t move much. They are quite old (i.e., the community of elders living in the leprosy villages).
I don’t know how I capture but I always want to try and capture the existence. Maybe I use the elements I see in the frame to capture the existence. Maybe I just use all those elements to make it work as I shoot existence but… I don’t know how.
Thank you Kosuke.
Request access to Ibasyo here. And see more of Okahara’s work here.
Invisible Photographer Asia published this piece here.
