1. Chatting with Jenny Dorsey, Chef

Hey guys! Welcome to Chatting with Asians. On this episode, I chat with acclaimed chef, Jenny Dorsey.

You might’ve seen her on Food Network shows such as “Beat Bobby Flay” and “Chopped At Home” but she’s also known for so many other projects. She runs her popup dinner series called “Wednesdays”, has numerous essays and articles that have been featured on sites like TechCrunch and The Huffington Post, and has collaborated with companies such as Pepsi and Harper’s Bazaar. Her latest venture is combining food and poetry with VR technology with her project called “Asian in America”. But what makes her journey so interesting is the fact that she used to work in management consulting and was on her way to become the youngest MBA candidate at Columbia Business School before enrolling into culinary school. We talk about her career switch, the complexities of Asian American food culture, and dealing with family expectations when you’re exploring nontraditional career paths. So here’s my chat with Chef Jenny Dorsey:

Angie: Thank you so much for taking the time to be on my podcast!

Jenny Dorsey: Yeah, of course.

When I saw your website, I was really stunned with the amount of work that you’ve been doing.

Oh, thank you!

To run a non-profit, host a popup dinner series, and then run a podcast and working on a line of ceramics…how do you have time to juggle all of that plus being a speaker and a writer and exploring AR and VR?

I think I’ve just been slowly trying to migrate my interest towards what I do. And so the way I think about it is like I have things that make money and things that don’t and I need to have enough of a balance to make enough money so I can pursue like my artistic things, and if I can just keep increasing…and minimize the amount of time I need to do to make money but make more money while doing it than I can have more time to do art-related items. So I feel like that’s like the big thing I’ve been trying to do this year. And like just trying to like maximize like…before I start any new project or do any new thing just saying like, “Is this a good use of my time?” And yeah, I don’t know if that really helps but I think just like being able to say like…and think about all the things that I want to do and be like, “I’m going to prioritize wanting to do these things versus some of the other things that other people care about.” Like I don’t work out as much as…I try and work out a little bit every week. But like there are sacrifices that have to be made. So just being able to be like gentle with myself and like and being able to forgive myself when I can’t do everything at once all the time.

I mean I feel like I’m also in the same boat and, I don’t know if this is like an Asian American thing or not, but I also tend to have a lot of different projects in my life to kind of manage and oversee. And then at some point, I do realize, “Oh maybe I put too much on my plate this time.” Like saying no to projects or at least like put them off on the sidelines for later.

It’s really hard. I mean there’s a good Tony Robbins quote from one of his numerous books and…it’s like, I mean his books that say the same thing like just in different ways and then he makes like five million dollars. But anyway, it’s about like as you get better at your craft, you’re gonna have more opportunities and what you need to figure out is like which opportunities are worthwhile. And like I feel like at first I was like, “I’m not even good at my craft nobody wants to hire me.” But now I’m like, “No I am good at what I do. But now I need to think about like who do I actually want to work with.”

And was that kind of like a mentality that you had especially moving from like management consulting and doing your MBA into culinary, or were you still kind of like learning the process and freaking out every once in a while?

Yeah, I mean, I think I have like a cr… like a life crisis like every two years or so. It’s been an ongoing crisis, I think. And I think that’s a good thing because if you’re like not having those crises, you just get one large crisis when you’re like 50 and you’re like, “I actually hate everything I’ve done my life.”

You know when you buy like the Mercedes-Benz or the Tesla, right?

Right, yeah and then you buy shit to fill like a hole in your heart that can’t be filled with stuff or like get a trophy wife. Yeah, we’ve we’ve all seen those people. Yeah no, I think I like manage this concept like, I don’t know if it’s an Asian American thing or, definitely for me, I also just have always had issues with depression and anxieties like this like, “Oh well how do I…how do I keep going?”. It’s never like, “Oh I feel like feel good now.” Like I don’t ever feel this like this calming sense of satisfaction that I’ve done everything I need to be doing like I’m just like, “OK there’s like there’s more…there’s more I need to do. Like what am I going to do next year?” For me, I have a birthday coming up and every year around my birthday, I always get especially nervous being like, “Oh what did I do this year? I didn’t do enough this year. What am I going to do next year?” And so it’s like trying to balance the positive side of that, which kind of keeps you striving forward, and like the negative side of that, which makes you kind of like a nervous wreck, and always like perpetually doubt yourself and I’m like definitely still working through that.

Yeah, I’m also feeling the same way where I kind of switched around between like accounting, now I’m in marketing analytics, and now I’m like, “Oh, you know I still have this like itch to like do something little creative.” And as I’m approaching 30, it’s definitely a side of me , and a very much Asian American thing, where I’m like, “How do I explain this to my parents?”

Right, for sure, for sure.

I mean, did you have to think about that when you thought about taking a sabbatical. Like, how do I explain this? And did that give you panic attacks or like what was your process like dealing with it?

I mean, so I don’t have a really close relationship with my family ever since I left…I had just changed careers. So like, when I first changed careers, I still was talking to them relatively frequently. And I think like they just didn’t understand what I was doing. They never…they didn’t understand why I wanted to go to culinary school at all and were really not supportive of that. And I think for the like next two years or so, when I was still kind of feeling out the food industry and figuring out what I wanted to do, it became this thing where they just kind of pretended it didn’t exist. And so they would ask my husband all the time like, “What was he doing?” Because he’s in startups and he’s been at, you know, fancy startups that people like to always ask questions about. So it was like easy for them to kind of deflect. And it kind of got to a point where I was like, “You don’t seem to care what I’m doing. So I don’t need to be in this relationship.” It’s making…this relationship is a lot more destructive than it was helpful and it just it…came to a point where it’s like, “I can’t live my life for you guys anymore,” because there’s so much of that from Asian Americans from…especially I’m first generation and my parents moved to the U.S. right after I was born and then I joined them a few years later. And there’s so much in their lives I think that they wanted to but they weren’t able to do it because they gave up. You know, it was a different time back then. You had to have kids young and all this stuff. They sacrificed a lot and I’m not denying that, but at the same time, like, so much of that pressure’s then put on the kids because you want essentially the kid to live the life that you couldn’t have. And like no one is happy doing that. It’s just a lose-lose situation for everyone. There’s so much resentment on both sides. And I find it was like, you know, if I die angry and unhappy like I’m the only one who has to bear that pain, they don’t have to bear it. And like I don’t want to live like that. So yeah, I stopped talking to them like two years ago…two years ago. We just started they vaguely emailing back and forth but like I haven’t seen them in like a very long time. So I just consider it like not, you know…at some point, I’m sure we’ll try and like rekindle our relationship. But honestly, I’ve spoken to a lot of Asian Americans about how to deal with this and I, maybe this sounds harsh, but it’s like their problem is not your problem.

Yeah and it’s part of our like Asian American upbringing like, children are kinda the faces of the family. Right? Like…

It’s all about saving face.

Exactly. And like every time you go to like a big family dinner, reunion, whatever it is, right? I mean the only thing that ever gets talked about is like, “Oh, so like what is your cousin doing? Oh, so what is your niece and nephew doing?” And it just becomes kind of a comparison game and like knowing the expectation of it going into this family dinner and being like, “OK, what’s the status update of my life? What sounds good?” Right? Ends up being not really healthy as an adult, surprisingly enough.

Yeah, exactly. It’s so much like, there’s so much comparison and there’s this like vague feeling I think growing up in Asian American communities that like everyone is essentially the same. And so you’re always seeing like who grows…like who grows metaphorically higher, right? And farther. And it’s like, it takes a really long time I think to realize that…everybody’s really different. You’re comparing apples to oranges. And some of the people who are the most successful, you know, on paper, are just like the biggest fucking wastes of space like in the world and like it’s just…it’s hard.

Yeah. I noticed that you had published your own articles on Hyphen Magazine and…what was the other one? Oh, on Medium. Kind of not just revolved on like your culinary experiences, but like really bringing the emotions of your experience as an Asian American into your food, especially with your series on “Asian in American”, the symbolic three course menu. How did it feel to like be able to have the creative power to do something like that and to like openly share your experiences with people?

I think it was hard to really be vulnerable. I mean, my husband and I have been running a popup series called “Wednesdays” for the last few years and the big thing is like how do you push people to be really vulnerable and open with others? And although that was like what we always preached, like it’s really hard to do that in practice. And what I learned through that process, like really taking an introspective look at myself and like my feelings, is like you cannot ask people to do that if you’re not willing to do it first. It’s like I say it all the time. I like…people kind of are…like give me that, “Yeah that’s great!” like look but like it’s really true. Like it’s like you can’t ask people to share things with you that are harmful and painful and serious if you’re not going to reciprocate and if you want them to do that, you should probably be leading that charge. And “Asian in America” was really kind of my way of saying like, “You know, if this is something I’m serious about…this is the brand that I care about, if this is a message that I want to put out into the world, then like I have to go step up and like actually do this first and say that like, ‘I’m willing to, you know, deal with the shit that people are going to throw back at me because if I can’t deal with that, then like I don’t deserve to have this brand anyway.’” You know, what I mean? Like I’m just like spouting bullshit essentially, which is what most Instagram people do. But like anyway, that’s a different story. Like…it’s just…like how do I actually like walk the walk, right? And I think “Asian in America” has been really hard because I have dealt with a lot of like weird undercurrents of racism and just mean stuff for the lack of a better term because of it.

I think it’s when you make people uncomfortable, you don’t know how they’re going to react. And sometimes, some people are so uncomfortable with being uncomfortable that they like react in these crazy ways. They say things or they’re just not…no one’s been violent, thank God, but like they just say crazy things or react in these like, I don’t know…uncharacteristic ways. Like even people that I know, it’s like they suddenly don’t know what to do. And, I think especially in the US where we’re trained to be extroverts and we’re trying to always be talking, it’s very hard for people especially when talking to people who are of the…like you know of a very privileged background, to actually just listen to you instead of like opining. So anyway, it’s been an interesting like psychological lesson, learning how to deal with people who are rude or negative. But I think for the most part, the support has been way like overshadowed the negatives. Like I’ve received a lot of awesome messages and also face-to-face interactions with people not just Asian Americans but I think minorities from all different races and ethnicities and even people who I guess that you wouldn’t consider minorities like Italians or something from Italy and just like talking about some of the shared experiences that they have. You know, they didn’t necessarily have the exact same experience but like something very very similar. For one…for example, this Italian told me that he…it really resonated with him. There’s a section where I’m talking, it’s one of the desserts, and I’m talking about like you know feeling like you want to go to sleep and just wake up and be blond so you can fit in. And he was talking about how he…that really resonated with him and just like, “Huh?” You know? I was like, so surprised. But at the same time like, “Wow.” Like it’s like these are all these universal feelings and if we can talk about feelings and then understand like culture I think as part of those feelings, I think we can be a little bit more kind and gentle towards each other.

And I think it’s such a really great initiative especially, like, nowadays. Right? It’s nice that you’re able to like give kind of like a safe vulnerable space in a way, even if people do react negatively to it. At least it allows for, like, more honest connections in a way and, I don’t know…it just sounds like a really nice initiative during these times.

Yeah, I think it’s especially now, people are realizing there’s just so much, like, inequity and basically everything we do when it’s been, you know, trickle down and like it’s it’s just like a pervasive…I mean I for one, I didn’t even realize how bad things were when I like I look back to my childhood and I’m like, “Wow, I literally did not have like a single like Asian American like person in a book that I could read about or anything.” You know? Like, I mean I use…you just don’t even notice. And so now that finally people…this is something that like the media and also just people in general are shedding more light on, I think it’s important to like really hone in on it and be like, “Yeah, like, let’s talk about this now,” because we can’t just let it fall to the wayside or say it’s like not important. Because then, you know, who knows what will happen. Yeah. So I think this is like the right time to really actually focus on this.

Yeah exactly. Kind of speaking about Asian American figures, do you personally have any culinary figures that are Asian American specifically that you admire?

I would say like Asian Americans in food? I am a big fan of Kristen Kish. I was just looking at her Instagram today. She’s like probably my favorite Asian American. And she…I mean she’s Korean but she was adopted by a white family. So I don’t know if that like…does it make her Asian American or something? But I’m a big fan of her.

We could do a whole episode on that.

Right. Exactly that’s like a whole…right. So, no, I would say I think she’s fabulous. I think she’s just like really…she’s just a very genuine person and I appreciate that. I feel like she does what she says she does and she’s like, “Look at me like this is what I do and I’m like I stand for queer woman! And so I’m going to actually like do these events with queer women in the community and foster that community!” Like she…I’m friends with these two women who ran like a queer supper club here in New York and they reached out to her. And like they’re just a small business and she was like, “Yes, I’ll do it!” Like, you know, for a big name like her to do something like that, it’s because she actually gives a shit. So like, I really respect that.

Oh, here’s kind of like a fun question. If you could cook a three or five course menu for anyone, dead or alive, who would you like to cook for?

Oh, I was just talking to Tribeca Film Institute about this and I was like, “Michelle Obama!” But I have like no idea what kind of food Michelle would like besides like it would be healthy right because that was like the whole thing. Like lots of vegetables. But yeah, I would love to cook her something. And I don’t know. Just like to be able to, like, talk to her. And then like learn about a topic she cares and do kind of more like the food art like interpretive stuff that I do where, you know, like give her one of the…I don’t know if you saw, I think in one of my essays those talking about this plate that’s like plated in a lunch box and it’s about like the shame around lunch…lunchtime routines. Like, give that…something like that to her and like talk about it because I feel like she would be into it.

Moving into lunches…I don’t know about you but I’ve had personal experiences where my mom would cook me like Chinese greens, rice, and like soy chicken, which doesn’t sound like crazy insane to me. But I have gotten remarks as a kid like, “Oh your food is kind of smelly or kind of weird. What is that?” But nowadays, it’s like…I think because of like social media and like celebrity chefs like David Chang, more people are now, like, trying to be open about Asian food, right? Because that’s the new culinary frontier. So all of the sudden, you get people who are interested in dumplings and bone broths and pho or whatever. How do you feel about people who like now pay for upwards of like 20 dollars for bone broth and like, you know, “Goji berries are like the new trend food!” Like I…because to me, half of me feels like, “Oh this is a great gateway into, like, Asian food.” But the other half of me is like, “Y’all called this food weird and smelly before.” Like…

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean I think it’s it’s hard. I was talking to…I feel like I talk about this a lot. And so like there…I have so many thoughts I’ll just try…I’ll try to condense them to make it…I think, one, like, I guess generally it’s a good thing that there’s like mainstream appeal. It’s good that things are getting more popular and it’s good that people you know there’s eyeballs on it. However, I think that it’s like fundamentally upsetting that A) when food is used as click bait because it’s a trend and then it’s basically something you can like, you know, you can dispose of at your leisure. This is like why Native Americans are not happy when you like put on those like huge kind of like the ceremonial like headgear for Halloween. Right? It’s the same thing it’s like our culture isn’t at…isn’t some a costume that you can wear. And it’s the same thing with food. It’s not like, “Oh I’m just going to put some soy sauce on this and being like oh it’s kind of Chinese now.” Like that’s just crazy. So I think that’s a big problem. It’s like how do you actually generate media interest in it in a way that’s not like trendy, it’s like just appreciation? So that at some points when I’ve received, for instance, when I receive like things back from editors that I pitch when I’m writing like, “Oh we already did an Asian angle so we don’t want to cover it again.” Like I hear that all the time. And that’s like, “Oh so then there’s like a quota system for like how much like Asian stuff you can cover but you can cover like dumb crappy American food for the rest of the year?” And like, that’s like, like what is that balance? Like what is…is Asian American food not American food? So like there’s that situation going on. And then it’s…I really do feel like if you’re going to…if you’re from a different culture and you’re cooking that culture’s food and you do, as a chef, you do have a responsibility to be doing something for that culture as well. Like and that something can be different for everyone. But it’s like how…how are you taking someone else’s food but you’re not giving back at all? You’re just profiting off it? Like is, innately, of course, going to rub people the wrong way and it’s innately just disrespectful. So like for all the white male chefs that have like, oh, suddenly become like Mexican chefs or, you know, Thai chefs or whatever like well what…like what…what are you doing to really help that culture besides like talk about the food sometimes? Or like just whitewash their food and make it more palatable to like these different audiences? So that’s a whole another conversation we can have for like 10 hours. You know it’s not just like white people to Asian people either. It’s like look at David Chang. He literally became famous making Japanese food. And he is an a**hole, you know. And so I think it’s just…it’s like…it’s complicated. Is that OK because he’s Asian? So that Asians can steal each other’s things, but we can’t steal…that other people can steal our things? Like what does that mean? Right? So like there’s a lot of…there’s a lot to unravel there and I think, like, it’s…it is OK that there are people I’m sure who made fun of others for having like gross lunches when they were young. Now they’ve learned better. But like, I would like to hope that those people learned better because they actually came to appreciate and understand the food versus like, “Oh matcha’s cool, so I guess they like matcha now.” Like how do you…there’s an intellectual, I think, depth that I hope that people actually have when they’re addressing…the cultures, the cultures and the food of different cultures nowadays. But it’s honestly, like, you just can’t expect that for all people.

Yeah. Yeah. So like I grew up in San Francisco most of my life, lived in L.A. for the last two to three years almost, and right now I’m based in Helsinki and even in Helsinki like there’s

Oh cool!

Yeah! It’s been it’s been really interesting so far. It’s now getting way too dark too often now. But…

Oh no. Yeah.

But even here in Helsinki, there’s kind of a wave of interest in and especially Chinese food. But each city that I’ve kind of had the experience of living in has such different, like, Asian food scenes. Do you think there’s a growing future for like the Asian food scene in the next five years? Or do you think it’s just all hype right now? Or…

I mean I think it’s there’s definitely a lot more that needs to be explored with Asian cuisine. I think people are starting to realize…I mean there’s like a good significant majority? No. I don’t know if it’s a majority but yeah…yeah! A majority of the world is Asian. So like obviously there’s a lot to unravel there in terms of like what people are eating but also, I mean, personally, I just find that a lot of like American…the American palate and like also a lot of the Western European palate is somewhat bland.

Yeah.

Like that’s a generalization. There is…there are pockets that are not bland like you know…like Creole cuisine is great

Yeah.

But I think we all know why that is. I think like people are starting to be like, “Oh there’s like all these flavors like I’m…” As people also become like more progressive and like liberal, and the younger population they like want to explore they don’t actually want to be confined to the same old stuff that maybe felt comfortable for their parents. So I think with that becomes a lot of like interest in Asian flavors and Asian cuisine and traveling to Asia. And, you know, that’s like a virtuous cycle.

Yeah. Kind of speaking about like the future generation of Asian Americans and the culinary world…The reason why I started this podcast was mainly because there’s like a young generation of Asian Americans that have all this technology now in high school that I never had. For Asian American kids who are like now exploring other creative career paths and may be interested in pursuing culinary, do you have any advice for them on kind of how to navigate the world right now?

I think it’s…for people who want to go into something creative in general, I would say like you just have to do it and, like, you constantly are finding like what does creativity like mean for you? And sometimes, I think people are like, “Oh if I go into food, that’s creative.” But I would argue like there’s plenty of people not doing creative things and food that are going in and making the same thing over and over again. Like look at every new American restaurant in New York right now. Like, you know? There’s like there’s definitely ways you can get caught in a rut and I think what’s more important to teach the younger generation that’s coming up and trying to find their ways…like figure out what what kind of creativity you, like, makes you excited and try to apply it that to, like, different things that hopefully some can make you money and some can’t. But like, what is it that makes you feel creative? For me, like, I like to work with my hands and I cook obviously. So cooking has to be like actually cooking, not like styling or not like writing. You know, those are also food related careers. Like actually cooking a certain type of food. Also, like, I don’t like to cook in volume. I like to make certain types of plates. Like those are the things, those are my confines of like how, where I feel the most creative. And then I also like to do pottery and I am not invested in that to make any money. But it’s like that’s how I can be creative and take a break from my other creative thing. So yeah just like kind of finding…finding that like source of creativity versus saying like, “Oh I’m creative and I want to go into food,” and then just thinking that like an industry can be creative, I guess, versus like certain tasks.

Yeah and it kind of sounds like, at least along your way, you’ve been able to highlight, like, your own different strengths and weaknesses and kind of make it your own thing. Right? Like, nothing is ever really predefined the way it is forever. Right? I think especially growing up like thinking, “OK the safe routes, right, traditionally are doctor, lawyer, or accountant. Whatever.

Mhm, mhm.

You know, obviously you moved away from management consulting and doing your MBA into something like fulfills you a little bit more. Right? And it’s…it’s probably hard to explain that but like it just feels better.

Yeah I mean I…I mean, for management consulting, you know, that’s an easy one. Like I, like, it was like a soul crushing totally worthless job. I don’t know what half…half of the management consultants are doing and I was a management consultant so I feel very entitled to say that. Like I literally did nothing. Like I did, like, physically did things, like, tactically, like, made PowerPoints. But like literally, what use did they do for the world? Like absolutely nothing. And like, I actually listened to a really interesting…my favorite podcast is called Hidden Brain and they had an episode called “Bullshit Jobs”…

Ooh!

Where like tons of people worldwide are like would say like, “I think my job is total bullshit. I don’t think I contribute anything to the world,” and you hear it from people from accountants to paramedics which I’m like, “Oh!” But like tons of people feel this way about their job? And like that is what I was afraid of, waking up and feeling this, like, bone crushing, like, literally I could fall off the cliff tomorrow and literally nobody would care and my job would just like disappear and it wouldn’t have mattered because I wasn’t doing anything anyway. Like that’s a horrible thing to feel! So I don’t wish that upon anyone. Like I think it was…it’s not…I know it’s scary to like leave a comfortable job, but like I think it’s scarier to think about what happens as you continue down the path of the comfortable job.

Yeah totally! And like I have grown into the mindset now because like I think I’ve tried doing the safe route like in accounting and it just didn’t work out for me. And I grew into the mindset of: when I’m on my deathbed, no one’s going to come rushing by my side and be like, “Hey remember the extra 10 hours you put in on the day? Yeah we really appreciate it.” Right?

Yeah exactly. “That was so great!”

“Thank you Angie!” One of the other questions I have for you: obviously you’ve done so many different kinds of collaborations and artistic projects and working with tech companies, Fortune 500 companies, local organizations, nonprofits. Out of all these projects and collaborations, if you could pick the top three memorable ones, what would they be and why?

Oh that’s a good question. I mean if I can pick both like paid and unpaid things, I guess. Paid wise: I’ve been working with an appliance brand called Dash for years now. We published two books together. I’ve done tons of like everything from development to like the product stuff to, you know, food and books. And that has been…because it’s been such a long time client, I’ve had a really good time learning about myself and also having a pretty safe and paid space to try and do things. Like that was the first place I ever did food styling. And like I actually don’t really like food styling, but like it does pay well and I do it occasionally if it makes sense. And I just like learned a lot about like why don’t I like this. You know what I mean? Sometimes, how you know you don’t like something unless you actually go and do it? Like I don’t really like being a barista but I didn’t know until I was a barista for a few months and I was thinking, “People are so mean to baristas for no reason.” I don’t know. I don’t know why. But yeah, so like, I thought that was like a just a really beneficial relationship in terms of me growing as a professional, as a person, as a photographer, as a stylist, and also like as a recipe developer. Like I…they have a pretty set kind of audience, like, very American, kind of like Midwest, you know, the same audience really is like Scripps Network. And developing recipes for them were hard and also, like, for me, learning that fine line of like, “What am I comfortable with?” There’s definitely some recipes I’m like, “Oh, this is a Thai recipe but it’s not really Thai.” Like I did that a few years ago and now I’m like I don’t know if I would do that today, you know? And like that’s a learning process. We’re not perfect. You make mistakes and like it’s kind of good to be able to say like, “Hm, like what did I learn from that experience or having done that now?”

Yeah. And I think there was definitely like a benefit to kind of doing like a career switching of sorts, right? I…I think because I used to be so obsessed about like, “OK here’s the one path for me and I should follow that.” I think in a lot of it’s like…kind of like…high school or university training. Right? You’re taught to like, “OK if you want to major in this, here are the classes to take. And here’s how you get like better and better and advanced and whatnot and your diploma!” But in the real world, like, it’s so much more complex than that and I think it’s amazing that you’ve been able to navigate all these different projects and kind of, like, take away from all these experiences to, like, build something that you’re a part of right now, right? At this stage.

Mhm. I think that the thing is like I always feel like there’s something…or like that, I guess this goes back to what we talked about earlier, is like there…always feeling there’s like something else that I should be doing or learning and like I think that it’s…it is sad to me because I think we’ve all been there if you’ve been in a corporate job, you know when you go into the job, you’re all excited because it’s a new job. You try to make all these changes and you feel like everybody’s just saying no to you because they don’t want to make changes because they just want everything to like trod like along forever in the same way. And it’s like, just like, intellectual laziness. And like I think for…that’s just like a microcosm of it in a work environment. Like I think a lot of people, unfortunately, fall into that trap in their life. Like, it’s just like, you just have kids and then you’re like, “Go do something else. We have another kid.” And then you’re like, I don’t know, like get a few promotions and you buy like three houses and like, you know? And it’s like, well, what are things that you are like actively learning or trying to get better at? Or like a new…it doesn’t have to be like a crazy new hobby that you decide to change your career to you. But like a new hobby or set some goals for yourself, like, I think those are the things that like keep life interesting or having a shared experience with your partner that is different. We went mushroom hunting the other day and we were terrible. But like now we’ve done it! Now I want to to go again. And it’s like, I don’t know, I just I just bought the Norma book on fermentation, which is a lot larger than I thought it would be. It’s huge! And I’m like, “Oh I’m really excited to like learn about this because I’m a chef! But I don’t…I know I have a very very precursory knowledge on fermentation and, like, this is something I should be like learning,” is the best…is like the point of life. I personally believe, so yeah.

Super random question: do you watch Rick and Morty?

I don’t

Oh no! OK. Well , because…because like there’s no requirement for everyone to like have the two kids and the white picket fence and like the nice lawn and the car, right? There’s no requirement for that. Because your life is your life. There’s this one episode in Rick and Morty where…it’s basically like a crazy science…science fiction show about like a crazy scientist and dragging his nephew on like dangerous adventures. And they go to this arcade that’s like located somewhere in space, so like all these aliens are playing different games that aren’t on Earth. And one of them is called Roy and the like the aim of the game in this in this Roy game is that you just play this character named Roy. You start off as like a boy and you just grow up and you can choose whether he like becomes a manager of a company or not. You know, you basically go through these life paths and like it’s just the most boring existence. And like you get points for like whether or not you have like a 401K at the end of your life. It’s a really good episode! If you…if you ever have time to like chill, that’s like number one episode for me.

Ok. Ok cool. That sounds awesome! Like yeah, it’s like Black Mirror but not scary.

Yeah, exactly.

It’s like really real but not scary.

Oh yeah! Yeah. And the show’s like definitely a lot more stupid than than Black Mirror. So…we’re kind of like winding down to the end of the interview and I’m like basically running out of questions. Obviously because you have so many different projects going on and you juggle so many different things, like, what do you like to do when you’re like…when you want to chill out, relax, and just like not think about it. Or do you always think about your projects?

No I mean I definitely try…I’ve really been trying to stick to like not doing stuff on weekends policy. I mean, obviously, those don’t really work out because sometimes there’s events on weekends, but then I’ll try to take like two days after the event or something like that. And just like not check my e-mail and not do things or like whatever. So usually when I’m not doing anything, I like to like do other things on like…I have like a list of places that I want to eat or like a list of activities that I want to do. Like I’m really into feeling like I did certain things just for me, like going on this mushroom walk that we did like two weeks ago. Like…like I…that was like not useful for anything. Well, we got some mushrooms but they weren’t really tasty. And like that was just because like I wanted to do it and I feel like it’s really important to feel like I did this because, like, there was no other reason besides I want to do it because I…you have…like I’m the most important person in my life. You know? Like I have to take care of myself. My husband comes in a close second, but I am the most important person. You know? So like, and I have to like make sure that like I have to take care of myself and, I don’t know…it’s a it’s a struggle of trying to figure out what that means sometimes. And sometimes it’s like, I want to go take a walk, so I’ll go to the park with my dog. And that’s it. Like it doesn’t have to be a grandiose thing but yeah just trying to reserve space for myself.

Yeah. And that’s so important too. Like even for me, I get caught up in just, like, lacking in self care that I could take the time to like invest in. Right? So like on the days when I’m feeling like super anxious or super stressed, like, it should be a good reminder to be like, “Wait, I’m the most important person here. Like right now, on this earth, to me, in my life. Right? Like just take like a five minute breather, to like meditate, or watch stupid TV, or go out for a walk, like whatever.

Yeah, whatever makes you happy because it’s like no one’s going to do it for you.

Exactly.

And then what’s the point of like running…making yourself unhappy for other people? Exactly, because they’re not more important than you are. How long have you been running the podcast?

Not very long. I only had the…well, I had the idea for about a year now. So like my boyfriend works in the video game industry and he was at an event like an e-sports event in L.A. So I went with him and it was like a live taped audience show. And I had met this Taiwanese American kid who was like…he actually ended up winning in that game, won a huge amount of prize money! And after the show, you know, finished taping, we all hung out afterwards. Kind of like a wrap up party thing. So this kid, who had just won, you know, flew in from Pittsburgh and met all these other kids who were interested in the same game. But when I talked to his mom, his mom was like, “No he’s not going to do this anymore.” “Like, what do you mean?” “Like, oh no, like, I I don’t want him to continue in video games. You know he he has…”

Why? Why?

Like, I think she she thought games were silly. You don’t pursue games, like there’s nothing in it, right? It’s not a profession that’s, like, respectable. And I I wasn’t trying to argue with her but I was trying to calmly tell her like, “Well there’s so many video game companies now that require software engineers, computer scientists, like, even if he’s not a video gamer, like , there’s still like a technical need for people to go into video games. Even artists, right, and designers.

There’s also a lot of people making money playing video games.

Right? Yeah.

Literally.

If that’s your angle, yeah. Yeah. So you know she kind of bought it but not really, right? And she was like, “Oh yeah maybe.” But I think that was what kind of spawned the idea for this podcast was like…this kid had access to Reddit, a whole wealth of information on the Internet…for him to feel lonely in Pittsburgh and to always be around his parents and like, kind of a tiger mom figure, and I was like…Oh man I saw so much of myself in that kid. I kind of wanted to create this podcast to like talk to other Asian Americans who do other things. That was just something I never grew up with. Like, I didn’t know what other career paths there were, really.

Yeah, I think it’s like so important to see a representation that like Asian Americans can do a lot of things and be a lot of types of people. And some of them are, like, you know, Asian Americans can be like bad people, too. And like just be like…the whole point of individualism is like that you can be an individual. Like there’s no, there’s literally no, like, there’s no ifs or when. It’s like that’s just it. And being like, “Oh that…that person who’s Asian American doing X thing,” like doesn’t actually reflect on me. They just are another person. And I’m free to do who…will, like whatever I am, and I’m not being compared to them because we’re not the same. Like if I play video games but that other person is a lawyer, like, that doesn’t make him better than me. Because we’re literally different. Yeah. Just feeling, yeah, feeling the acceptance to actually do that from the community and from your parents I think…and sometimes you just can’t get it from your parents. I never got it from my parents. And like just being able to say, “I’m going to still go be a person despite this.”

Yeah. Even for me, I still struggle with that. Trying to just remember, my life is like my own path. And I think social acceptance it’s, like, unfortunately, one of the core values of like being an Asian American. Like, I don’t know, at least for me, like, I’ve always…I’ve always had to kind of look for social acceptance in order to somehow feel better for myself. And it’s like totally not the case. I know that, but I still have to remind myself about that.

Yeah I mean, I think we’re all kind of like wired to want social acceptance. But then, like, being in an Asian American community, I feel like it’s like it’s even more so because there’s such a lack of emphasis on…like being your own person and like that is not seen as a good thing. So then it’s like how good you are is only how much people think you are good at things or accept you as who as who you are, so you’re always trying to like be a different person for everyone else’s sake. Yeah.

Yeah. Well thank you so much for your time!

Of course! Thank you for having me.

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