14. Chatting with Tanya Zhang, Fashion Entrepreneur

Hey there! Welcome to another episode of Chatting with Asians.

In this one, I chat with Tanya Zhang. She’s a co-founder of a men’s fashion company called Nimble Made and if that brand sounds familiar to you it’s because I interviewed her partner Wesley in the first season inspired by her dad’s struggle to find clothes that fit him in America. She quit her corporate visual designer job to pursue Nimble Made with a mission to bring diversity and inclusion to men’s fashion. They’ve been featured on Money Magazine, Yahoo!, and HuffPost. And I feel so lucky to have chatted with her about her experiences as a female entrepreneur and dealing with imposter syndrome. So here’s my chat with Tanya Zhang.

Tanya Zhang: Hi! I am so excited to be here.

Thank you so much for being on the show. I really enjoyed recording the podcast episode with your boyfriend Wesley talking about Nimble Made and so I thought it’d be a really good opportunity to get your point of view especially as like an Asian female entrepreneur.

Yeah, I know, I’m super stoked to be here. When Wesley was on your podcast, I think that was, oh man, that was at the very beginning of our venture together as co-founders of Nimble Made. So, hopefully I can give you some cool updates on what we’ve been working on with the brand. But yeah, I’m super excited to finally like talk with you.

I know, it’s it’s been awhile in the making. I know our initial conversation a few months ago we were kinda catching up and getting to know each other better and you mentioned a really good point about how there are more nuances in women’s fashion than men’s fashion. And I’d love to explore that topic a little bit more, I mean, was that something that you had discovered before launching a Nimble Made or afterwards?

Yeah, we definitely get that question a lot when I tell friends or strangers that I’m a co-founder of a menswear brand, all of the times the question I’ll get is, “Oh, when are you going to, go into women’s clothing?” and I’m like…one problem at a time please.

Yeah, really.

But I think, I think I I was really thinking about it when my dad and I were would go shopping in the States, right, he’s like 5’5, he’s 1, I think probably 140 pounds and he just like an overall slimmer guy. And so whenever he would come from China to the States to like visit ‘cos he usually works abroad, he would just kind of straight out like tell me American dress shirts don’t fit him and I thought that was really weird because I think he’s like by no means a small guy, but he’s like pretty like average, I guess, built and so it was very shocking to like go to Macy’s or go to like JCPenney’s and literally try on almost every single dress shirt brand in the store and not find a dress that fit him well, right, they’re off and just like very baggy or like too long or like the sleeves are way too long or and it was just so shocking because like I feel like for women’s clothing there are like petite clothes and there are lines kind of like specifically for like different body types, so a little bit more kind of size inclusive than what I’ve seen in men’s fashion so far.

Yeah, definitely. I feel like, I don’t know, are you a big fan of Queer Eye on Netflix?

Oh my God, I love it. I literally cry every episode.

I just finished, i just finished season 4 and there was so much ugly crying.

Oh my God.

There’s just so much ugly crying.

Oh man, it’s the best.

I love it, but I think there’s something to having inclusive sizing for men. You know there’s like a huge movement right now to be more proud of different body types, especially in women’s fashion and I’ve always am petite so, I’ve always shop for petite sizes and I’ve always appreciated having that availability but I think watching Queer Eye definitely makes you realize, oh, well men also deserve to have more inclusive sizing and it’s just not really part of the conversation, I think.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I totally agree, I think especially Asian Americans or Asians that just have come straight from all parts of Asia are coming here and then realizing that the sizes on average are just much larger than what they would get in Asia, right, so for example the Uniqlo in the States their sizes are a little bit larger than the Uniqlo in China, right, like I’ve gone shopping and I’ve bought shirts from Uniqlo in China and I gotten like a small and then bring it back to the States, finally trying it on, I’m like oh my goodness this is so tight. There’s just, there’s such a size discrepancy across countries that it’s alarming.

Its true, yeah, so true, kind of going back into Nimble Made and like you’re just your journey into entrepreneurship, you aarted well even before you started Nimble Made you spent some time working at an ad agency, startups and at Ernst & Young, is that correct?

Yes. That is correct.

And so it’s been about nine to ten months since pursuing Nimble Made full time, is that correct also?

I would say that is accurate, yep.

Yeah, so what has been maybe like the top three challenges about switching from, you know, office life to entrepreneurial lives.

Yeah. I’ve, I was working in the corporate space for about I think 4 years right out of grad and like you said making that transition from, you know, like an office job you have like 9 to 5 or like a 9 to 9 sometimes and then you have the weekends are kind of just like chill to all of a sudden working on your own business and like leaving that kind of routine and that structure behind you. It was a very tough transition, I think, I did my best to research how to best manage my expectations when I was about to make that transition. I was like what to expect when you work for yourself full-time, right, and a lot of kind of like the internet consensus is that you lose a sense of community, when you’re working in a corporate space like you have co-workers, you know, you have a desk, you have happy hours, you have like networking events and that…all of that kind of just like goes away when you’re working by yourself, for yourself whether that’s at home or a co-working space or in the cafe. And that was one of the, that was one of the toughest things that Wesley and I had to kind of go through. It was almost like you’re, you’re, you’re alone too much like with yourself that you’re kind of almost like going a little crazy. So, that’s definitely, that was definitely one of the struggles. I think the second thing is very much finances, that’s probably the first thing that comes to mind when people even entertaining that thought of doing their own thing full time is like, okay, but like, how can I pay for food? That’s a struggle, yeah, so I think that for me luckily I’ve been able to freelance on the side even though I was working a corporate job for a few years at the same time. I was kind of just like doing some side gigs here and there doing like graphic design, visual design, UX design kind of just like one time project based assignments. And so, I was lucky enough to have a little bit of that emergency fund where I felt comfortable enough saying like, okay, I can probably survive for a while off of my savings and so I think I should just give it a go. So, finances definitely is the second toughest. It should probably be like number one, really.

It’s like tied with the like loss of community or you know loneliness.

Yeah, definitely and I think, oh man, I just feel like there’s so many tough things how do I, how do I just narrow down to just 3…I think probably that last one I would say is just the fact that I think if you’re working in the corporate space you have, you know, like happier reviews…you have feedback rounds with a supervisor, you kind of can see your progress as you’re working at an office or for a company, you know, like every two or three years. Maybe you’ll get like a promotion. Maybe you’ll get to, you’ll get raises and that’s kind of expected when you’re in that space and like corporations have built that kind of hierarchy and that, like, that way for you to be able to climb the corporate. ladder, right, and so I think that’s been tough because where do you…how do you track your progress? And how do you track your self growth when you’re kind of just thrown into this dark abyss of entrepreneurship and the fact that for us, Nimble Made, our dress shirt brand we’re completely self funding it, so I didn’t just naturally…that means the growth of the business is going to be much slower, right, because we’ll be like let’s try put $10 into ads versus if we got funding it’d be like lets put like 10K or even 100K into ads.

Right.

And so just naturally by the nature of how we’ve cemented our business, we want to be self funded we want to kinda say that we really just our own and we didn’t need like irresponsible funding or spending I guess in that way and so it’s really just, it’s hard to track your progress and it’s hard to tell if you’re like moving the needle for the business even like for yourself right and so sure we’ve come up with like metrics and we’re like, okay by the end of q1 we’re gonna do this this this this this and then it’s almost just like it’s it’s disheartening because you almost like never really like hit those metrics especially as a self funded business everything just goes so much slower than you think that it would.

Yeah, I, do you feel like…do you feel like with the check ins like are you are you striving? Maybe striving is not the right word, like, are you craving more of you know trying to meet certain metrics or are you also craving for more kind of like personal growth kind of metrics, if that makes any sense, right. Like really I think part of the performance review cycles is that you know you’re not only being measured by like how your performance is, like by metrics but also kind of personality wise, right, like, how are your interpersonal skills with other people? Is that something that like you and Wesley are trying to strive for as well when you’re, you know, checking in with yourselves?

Yeah, I think that’s a great point. Like a lot of those performance reviews within the corporate setting is like quantitative but also qualitative right and so I think when Wesley and I set our goals, it was very at a very quantitative business specific level so it’s like how many email subscribers are we gonna get, how many instagram followers, like what’s the number of sales? Right it’s like a very business driven and I think when we first left out corporate jobs, I think this was in a last fall, so october, november of 2018. The first few months after we left and we’re working full time on the brand it was just so stressful. We were like so like honed in on the business and like not eating you know and not taking care of ourselves and like Wesley and I are also dating so it’s like there’s just no time for us to just go out and not talk about work or you know go on and just enjoy our lives and so I think a few months like really into it we were just so burned out and we’re so tired and just kind of like, oh we have to like work again, and you know, and it’s tough because it was something that we were really at the beginning super excited to do like this is our passions, this is our side hustle, hustle turned into our full time hustle and then we just really like felt it like this is work and that’s just like the worst. I don’t know. I feel like that’s just like the worst thing and so now that we’re kind of like 9 months like 10 months in just like very recently we’ve just decided to kind of change the way that we’re thinking about it right like Nimble Made, if it doesn’t take off, totally fine, no, we don’t need to put that much pressure on ourselves to say this is the idea to make it. We’re like, you know we’re freelancing on the side too, like Wesley just picked up his own kind of like digital marketing client, which is awesome. Like I’m still doing design and at the same time we’re working with freelancers who are doing our Nimble Made ads too so we have people working on the brand too who aren’t so kind of attached emotionally to the brand and so at the same time like we’re able to see that growth in our business. It’s slow but it’s still its still growth and so I think reflecting on the first few months of us being so tired and so burn out or are we even enjoying this or are we even like enjoying our lives together, like we did this ‘cos it was fun. We can work together all the time together. And built them together but we were just like no yeah I think we have like…we probably each lost 10 pounds which is kind of ridiculous i don’t know how that happened im like…it’s one of those things where you think you eat a lot but you just like skip meals sometimes ‘cos you’re so deep in it.

Yeah, yeah i know for sure. I also felt the same way in terms of like I think especially because this is the first time I’ve ever pursued something or like the podcast, I mean the first time I’ve ever pursued a like a side project or passion project that involves an audience and involves guests and involves people and I started or especially nowadays like podcast is such a hot thing to have like, I feel like everyone and their mom has a podcast and so not only is the area supersaturated but that also means you know I find myself comparing my podcast to other podcasts and, you know, you find yourself feeling like oh, I’m not doing enough events, or I’m not doing enough, you know, higher profile guests. I’m not I’m not achieving all these things and you know I find myself in a spiral of feeling self doubt and on top of each other but kind of what helps me to pull myself back out of that sort of situation was like reminding myself why I wanted to do this podcast in the first place. And it was really just to be able to share stories like yours and you know other people just out into the public sphere without, I don’t know, it kinda keeps my mission a little bit more humble and maybe a little bit more sustainable in the long run and in the case that this does grow the way that it actually should, right, yeah, ‘cos I feel like burnout is such a real thing especially for entrepreneurs

Yeah, I mean I totally hear you. I think that there are like like everyone is like doing a podcast, but I think with our experience with Nimble Made we’ve just seen a bunch of other companies like also doing the same thing that we are you know they’re doing slim fit only dress shirts or they’re doing like dress shirts just for like short men, you know, so there’s like literally every idea has been thought of and someone is like doing it and It doesn’t really matter ‘cos I think that if you have an idea and you don’t give up you can make it work and you can make it happen and you can like get income from it. It just takes a lot of hard work, but I don’t think that like people should kind of like keep searching and searching and searching for an idea or a part that no one has ever thought of because that’s just like, no, that’s impossible, but I’m super appreciative of your podcast actually because I think Wesley was like one of your first few ones…

Yeah.

Yeah and then what was it…that was a that was a while back but then I was like talking to someone I think through this community and I was explaining to her what I did…like oh I work on like Nimble Made and she’s like, oh I’ve actually you know heard…I’ve heard your co-founder Wesley’s podcast episode with Chatting with Asians. I’m like oh my God!

Oh, that’s nuts so…that is so bonkers!

I was amazed. I was like oh my God, thank you Angie. You’re killing it, killing it.

Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, well I’m so happy to give you the platform for you guys. Like you, you also need to at least get that start for my podcast so I’m always appreciative about that.

I love that. Women supporting women, lets go.

Yes, so good. Well, I guess on the flip side, I mean, what’s the best part so far about entrepreneur life?

Flip side, lets see.

I know the tougher one.

Yeah, I like this question a lot ‘cos we just, Wesley and I are just so entrenched in the business and we always focus on the bad things are happening. Like we always see like the returns and exchanges but never like the customers who have kept the shirt you know like they bought online.

It’s interesting

It’s super interesting. Yeah, well like for example…for example well I get a return like a customers like, “Oh it doesnt like fit well,” like what are we doing you know like why are we doing this we keep getting like returns, you know, and then later we’ll do like a little like analysis and see that actually our returns are pretty low probably have like 10 to 15% which is much less than the average for e-commerce. And we’re like oh i guess i guess we’re okay like i guess it’s fine. It’s ridiculous. The best part I think the best part about entrepreneur life is really just setting your own schedule. I know that’s like cliche and people like say that a lot but to have the freedom to do whatever you want when you wake up is amazing. You don’t, i mean, we went through a few months of like we were just wearing the same clothes and like I was just like as bare face, you know, it was just kind of ugly for like for awhile too but it was kind of amazing because sometimes we’ll be like oh it’s a really nice day out, like why don’t we just go get dimsum on like 12 at like on a Tuesday, right? And you’re just like no line, you can literally order anything and you don’t feel like you’re like rushed or like you know…I think just like the freedom of it in general has just been so…it’s just been so…I don’t even know what the word is

It’s just been that amazing that you’re speechless.

Exactly , it is a blessing, yes.Time, just, time is great.

You know, what’s so funny is that I also feel the same way in terms of, oh man, you know having more freedom, especially as a creative entrepreneur is the flipside like the best part about it but you know, I actually found myself in a really, no, it’s not, it’s not super bad situation, but it just wasn’t ideal. So on my birthday, it was a Tuesday and I work part-time on a temporary basis for a non-profit and on Tuesdays through Thursdays I get off in the afternoon. And so I thought this would be a perfect time for me to get off from work. It’s a tuesday and I didn’t make any plans to have dinners you know with friends until that weekend so I thought oh I’ll go to Japantown maybe grab lunch with my parents and they said oh, yeah, that sounds great. So we all met up in Japantown at 3 p.m. Nothing was open until 5pm. And so I thought well this is the worst part about having all this free time.

Oh my God that’s hilarious.

Yeah I think we ended up going to a restaurant and it was so it was so bad like nothing was fresh everything just like tasted so stale and they were really pushing us to just get out of the restaurant as soon as possible.

Oh, no.

So was like happy birthday to me…

Oh, no.

No, it was aIl good, I mean like I made it up with, you know, a nice weekend here and there so I can’t complain I think you know especially for Asian creatives and entrepreneurs it’s really, I think it’s one of the toughest steps to try to explain to your parents or to your family this big lifestyle change, you know, for some people might be like, well, what’s the big deal? I think for some others it really could be in…like means facing a lot of judgment or a lot of kinds of fighting sometimes. wWould you be open to sharing your experiences when you first told your family about pursuing Nimble Made full-time?

Yes. Definitely. I actually, I will sometimes go speak at colleges at like with business frats I like go in and tell them how I like built this brand and a lot of kind of like be more like Asian Americans… like the people of color students will very much be like the first question they ask me will be, “How did you tell your parents?” though you know and so I think that’s like super telling of the fact that entrepreneurship is a very unconventional career path, right, and for me I was most recently at Ernst and Young and Wesley was at Citi and then he was at and then he moved to an e-commerce startup in Manhattan and so very much like in our parents mind was that you’ve made it stay at that job for like 50 years, please, so it was yeah I think it was tough i think man…tryna…when I, when Wesley and I were starting to think about leaving our corporate jobs more seriously I had to really be strategic about it. I think ‘cos I had also moved from LA where I’m originally from New York City to work. My mom was kind of like, you know, like pissed at that but I think I, I was, I was just very strategic with that whenever I would have called her you know like walking to the subway, I would just like ring her and I’d be like oh hey mom like how’s it going, I just had an idea today you know dress shirts, skinny guys, you know like we can probably like make something for them you know something really casual and then just kind of like different like incept the idea into her mind over a certain time frame until she’s kind of like on board with you too ‘cos it was also like she’s been a part of it, too, it was a very yeah it was a very strategically thought out kind of plan to convince my mom at least ‘cos she’s a little bit more traditional I guess. And so that’s tough. I think all in all Wesley and I are very fortunate in that our families are open-minded and that they’re willing to kind of talk it through and that they support and that they love us a lot you know and so I think we, we are very much grateful to have had their support all throughout this. I definitely would not have been able to quit my job if my mom was like I don’t feel good about this. Like a hundred percent. I just can’t do that to her. And so I think being being able, being able to have parents who are very open-minded was just such a blessing, but it did, it did take a little bit of like maneuvering to get there.

Yeah, totally. I, to be very honest when I had the podcast idea it…I actually didn’t even tell my parents and so I just I don’t know why I think a lot of it was just, I didn’t want to have to explain myself for my decision. And I knew it wasn’t something that I was going to pursue full-time right away anyway. It was just a side project that I just wanted to explore and I think I just wanted to keep myself in that kind of honeymoon period of like this is my little thing and this is my little world and I just want to explore the way that I wanted explore without, you know, outside opinions necessarily. And so obviously, I told my friends about it and they loved the idea. I think my parents, you know, I can’t even exactly remember how my parents knew about the podcast. I think I also casually mentioned it. I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I’m job searching coming back to San Francisco from Finland. And I started a podcast but anyways… yeah sandwich it like oh, you know you look so nice today and the flowers lovely very lovely…

Love it.

And you know, I also feel lucky in the sense because I think I felt a lot more pressure when I was younger to, you know, maybe pursue a more conventional school path and career path and whatever but now that I’m like 30…

Yeah.

Like okay so yeah…but I think there’s also something really nice about choosing your own support group as well whether, whether or not that includes your family, right? It’s so important to just find the people who want to support you kind of no matter what, your projects…and that could be friends like family. It’s just nice to have that.

Yeah. I think it’s like It’s almost required to have that otherwise, it’s just so so hard on like yourself than to try to make it work. You know, like support is everything.

Oh yeah, I mean there’s just there’s no way that I could have done this purely all by myself had it not been the encouragement of you know just my close friends and other people who are like, oh, I would love to hear stories like this.

Yeah.

Yeah and I’m sure it’s the same for you guys like I’m sure you guys get the encouragement every once in awhile from customers who are like I love these shirts or like I’ve been looking for this.

Yes, yes when we do get that kind of feedback it’s literally like oh my God it’s all been worth it like all the struggles have been worth it. I mean we’ve heard people say that this is going to be like Nimble Made is the only dress shirt brand that they’d buy from like now.

Oh my gosh.

And i’m like wow thats like that’s dedication and I’m like i don’t even know if I would buy our own shirts you know i mean thank you yeah…

But that’s amazing ‘cos it’s something that you guys have created right like you guys had this idea and really took it into execution and now it’s out there in the world for that one person to be like, oh, I would continue buying this forever and ever.

Yeah and I think that’s just oh man, it’s just we’re too hard on ourselves and the imposter syndrome is real, right, we’re just whenever something good happens we’re like oh, but is it really like good like do they really like it, they really mean that or you know, maybe they just haven’t seem like haven’t tried out, like other gestures is just like a whole bunch of like doubt.

No, it’s super true. Like even there are times when someone has complimented on the podcast or even complimented me you know initially my gut reaction will be to say, you know, that’s too nice. That’s too something else but I have to, I’m starting to learn to accept compliments and be better about it and being like thank you, I appreciate that. It means a lot.

Yes. Oh my goodness. I think that’s like a great exercise that everyone should do who is like suffering from imposter syndrome. I was, we were, we just went to our first few trade shows in New York City so we’re looking at like you know different textiles, different patterns, like looking for like suppliers and stuff like that and we went in like this…this are the type of events where you like register online so you put in like a name and brand, your company, and like a role and so when you get there they like print out like a badge for you, right, and then my badge had like my name on it and then said president / CEO and i’m just like what? That’s not me but I guess it is. Should I attempt to correct this? But it’s actually technically correct, so that was yeah it’s weird those experiences are weird.

Yeah but you are the president and CEO of Nimble Made.

I guess so, I guess so.

You are. Well talking about imposter syndrome, just a tiny little thing called imposter syndrome, I’ve been trying to create different exercises to hopefully help others who are also experiencing imposter syndrome. So I would love to maybe test it out on you if you don’t mind.

Yeah, lets do it

Let’s do it? Ok cool cool cool. Let’s see. So I’ve created in my mind a bunch of different exercises. None of them are like a fix it all sort of solution but it’s just like more tools in the toolbox so to speak…so one of the things I found to have helped me out is when I’m finding myself in kind of like a constant tunnel of self-doubt just piling on top of each other, I really try to find some kind of silver lining in, in whatever, I’m having self-doubt about. I think it’s not to lessen like the things that I’m not proud of but it’s just more so like to accept that there are moments, certain situations that I’m not proud of but I take that with me in order to become a better person. So, I guess to start things off, usually I try to list three things that I’m not proud of or I’m not feeling good about but on the flip side I’ll try to find three silver linings associated with that. So for example, like the three things that I’m not really proud of is that like number one, I live at home with my parents at like 30 years old. Number two, I’m still doing side gigs and kinda freelance stuff in order to supplement my main source of income. And the third one is I, looking back on how I spent my money especially my early twenties, super not proud of that. I was like very reckless in my early twenties that, you know, on the flip side I feel like living at home has allowed me to save money and have a better relationship with my parents and also understanding that it’s just a temporary situation, you know, I’m planning to move out at some point and have my own independent life again. I think for the side gigs, you know, I’m trying to supplement my main income. It just means that I have a wide array of skills that earn me additional money. So like awesome. I can’t complain about that at all. And you know the third thing is even though I felt like I wasn’t very good about handling money in my early twenties, I’m learning from that now and I’m becoming a better budgeter but you know not sacrificing fun in the meantime…

Yeah.

Yeah, you know I mean, what would you think are the top three things that you’re not really proud of and like you know Is there a flip side to those situations?

Yeah, no I really, I really love this exercise ‘cos I think that everyone talks about imposter syndrome like all the time and like all the experiences that they have which is great but it’s just like how can we actually take those conversations and make it actionable and create something where we can reflect and see what next steps we can take to be better about it. And so I think that’s a really really awesome exercise. I think, I should, I’m probably just gonna…I’m probably going to have this exercise for me and Wes to do like quarterly. If not like you know like monthly. I think it’s a great idea. Yeah, I mean, okay. So let’s see top three things I am not proud of…its just like self reflection.

I know the vulnerability part is also scary.

It is it’s just like you’re just telling yourself the truth. Just like straight on and so it’s like it’s painful but good, but good.

You’re in good hands. I promise.

Yeah, yes perfect. So I think one of them is definitely the fact that from time to time I do need to rely on my parents and that’s in the form of a lot of things like support just like emotional support but also like finances right like sometimes they’ll like offer to like fly me back home to LA for you know like the holidays and I don’t want to take their money and I don’t want to be like you don’t have to pay for my stuff anymore. But you know at the same time like with this venture it’s been hard because we are like a little bit more strap for cash. And so, I have to say, yes, like thank you for offering to like fly me and like paying for this year and they’re paying for my food, you know, I think it’s like I’m not proud of the fact that like I’ve been working or like that I’ve been out of college for you know 4, 5 years now and I still kinda have to like to ask my mom for help sometimes that’s been I don’t know i just feel like she deserves so much better you know.

I get that.

So, I think like the flipside very similar to yours. Is that I am able to have a very very intimate relationship with my mom and with my parents. Just by the nature of like the situation that I’m in. I can really trust her and I can really like open to her about kinda the struggles that I’m going through, you know, with the business, with like finances and she of course is just amazing and like oh you can call me anytime, rent free, food is free, your classic asian mom. And so I’m really grateful to that. The business has kind of made us connect a lot more and we have more things to talk about and like she’s been able to support me along the way. So oh my God, she’s amazing. I think the second thing is I’m not proud of the fact that I am pretty shy…I don’t know if shy is the right word but I’m a little bit more of an introvert than an extrovert and I have felt it really hinder my performance when I was working in the corporate space like you know, like for those annual reviews I would just constantly get feedback that I was quiet or that I was too shy or that I didn’t speak up enough and I think that has just like really ingrained, it became like such a Tanya this is a flaw, you need to work on this in my mind and that’s just something that I’ve always kind of like has always been following me like whenever people are like all, oh you know my friends and I are getting drinks at the bar, I would like naturally I’d be like I’m not going staying on this couch. Just like socializing is so stressful for me, you know, so that’s something I’m just constantly not like proud of or I most recently wasn’t super proud of. And I think that on the flipside, I really I really like I really thought about it. Like I really thought like I need to be extroverted, you know, I need to go out and network with like everyone and this business is going to be successful because I’ve met you know like i’ve networked and I’ve met the right people and it was just so stressful ‘cos I’m just naturally, I just can’t do that. And so i think of the flipside by the fact that I like wasn’t really proud of it really have to like to think about it and like what I wanted to kind of do, right, like what were my next steps going to be for always sharing that I was like too quiet or too shy and I actually like like I thought about it a lot, I was having dinner with like an Asian woman in New York City, she runs her own restaurant. I was lucky enough to get like a dinner with her and I was like, what do you do for self care? You know self care is such a big thing especially running a restaurant, it’s so tiring its like 24/7 you’re working and she’s like, you know honestly if you want the truth its that I…I don’t make time for self, self-care and I’ve made my peace with that, you know, and I think I like that was such an honest answer ‘cos I think a lot of time you get like, oh, you know just like go to the spa, take a day off and I’m just like but like, no, what do you really do? And so I think the fact that she was so honest with the fact that like she’s made her peace by the fact that she doesn’t care about self care anymore felt actually relaxing. I’m like if I just made peace with a bunch of stuff in my past I would just like never have to think about it again, right? That’s kind of just a long way of saying that I’ve basically decided that I’m okay, and I’ve made my peace with the fact that people are going to think I’m quiet and that people are going to think that I’m like shy or introverted and I don’t have to feel like I need to go out to this like networking event or I need to talk to at least five people out of the event. I think once I’ve kind of like consciously and intentionally decided that I’m okay that people thought I was quiet or shy I just oh my God life has been a breeze. I’m like, i don’t want to talk to anyone so…

I’m just like, I’m just imagining you like walking down the New York City street and be like, I don’t want to talk to you, I don’t want to talk to you…

Exactly. I don’t even make the effort you know I mean like you need support and you need to socialize a little bit, yes, that’s not…you don’t need that but it’s just been internally I feel at peace with that, oh man, lets see the third thing that I’m not proud of…I don’t know I think it’s weird to say this, but I don’t know if I’m proud of the fact that I left my corporate job. I keep going like I keep going back and forth about it. Its like you have good days, l like this is amazing, I love it and you have other days where you’re like, if I stayed I would be making this much money with like healthcare which I currently do not…

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, exactly so then I don’t know. I think i think it’s kind of an extreme but that’s something that I would list you know like the fact that I maybe not super proud of the fact that that I left my full time corporate job. I don’t know that was tough.

But what would you think is the flip side about that?

Yeah, I think the flip side that is just like really looking at how much I’ve grown since I left it, right, is just like a lot of my self-reflection on like where you were kind of like you mentally like emotionally physically before you left your job and like almost a year now that you’ve been working for yourself full time is like just really looking at yourself holistically and giving yourself a lot more credit. I think on the flip side because I’ve left my corporate job, I’m able to spend a ton of time with Wesley, you know, we are just like constantly together all the time like laughing, really enjoying our lives, we have time and we have the freedom to do whatever we want, you know, like if Nimble Made isn’t going to be the business that does it for us it’s going to be something else, you know, like we’ve actually adopted a dog too so amazing. Yeah, he’s a menace.

What kind of dog is he?

Oh, he’s like I’m not really sure, he looks like a wiener dog. So, I think it’s like half wiener half cattle dog or like blue heeler type of dog he’s small he’s very small.

Oh cute, what’s his name?

His name is Broxie, b r o x i e.

Broxie, why not Roxy?

I know.

I’ve never heard Broxie before.

Okay, here’s the whole story…feel free to cut this out if you need to.

It’s all good.

So he was rescued from a puppy mill in Missouri and so I think his name when he was rescued was Brogan, like bro, and then gan, yeah, doesn’t really fit him ‘cos he’s just like really small like wiener dog and you have this kind of like fratty boy name so then we’re like wanted to honor that you know like he has a past so we wanna keep the bro part and we just decided to make it a little bit more cute and like wiener dogs are often called doxies so we like mixed his foster name of Brogan and like Doxie to Broxie. But yeah, that’s the story of his name, but a lot of people, I’ll say Broxie and they’ll say, oh Roxy she’s so cute, I’m like yeah yeah it’s Roxy sure. It’s so much easier again ‘cos i dont want to like socialize. I don’t want to explain all that in person to everyone so like.

Yeah and you know sometimes you just have to pick the better fights.

Yes.

Yeah, so they’ve been times. So my name has definitely been butchered a number of times whether that was in school or in a work setting. I think in a work setting i took it way more seriously i’ll be like no my name is like Angelica Hom. But there are times in school or at a restaurant where they’re like, oh looking for an Angelica Ham. It’s not the best thing but whatever, I’ll take it.

Yeah, oh my goodness I can’t…I can’t even, I feel like Tanya isn’t too bad. My sister’s name, my younger sister’s name is Hepsi…

No.

it’s like pepsi with like H. I know, I was like you guys ruined her but she like hates it and so whenever she’s at Starbucks or whenever she need to give a name she’ll use my name instead. It’s tough.

Oh my gosh, it’s a tough life being Hepsi.

Yes, oh poor girl.

Oh my gosh. Well, I know we went on a tangent about cute dogs and everything. But how did you feel after doing the exercise? Like do you feel like it was helpful or maybe made you feel a little bit less imposter syndrome-y?

Yeah, I definitely felt, I definitely like feel a little like emotional just because you’re just telling yourself what you’re not proud of yourself about so it’s just like really I just yeah, it’s very emotional. Yeah, everyone like self reflects but you’re picking like three things you’re really not proud of and you’re like saying it to someone verbally and I think it’s really I think it’s really tough but being able to kind of like caveat and point out, but also you know this does help me because all the silver linings I feel is like a breath of fresh air because I feel like people are just so hard on themselves all the time. And me included for sure… so I think it’s nice to like, hey you’re living in a home, you know, you can pay for food, you have like running water you know like it’s not too bad and you know things could be a lot worse. So, I think I think i think it feels very refreshing. Yeah.

Yeah and I think there’s something to like…it’s, it’s obviously also like an exercise in vulnerability, right, like your exposing things you’re not proud of with another person and that’s scary no matter, no matter who it is, right? But I think I also feel like I’m also hard on myself too whether it’s for the podcast or in my personal life. And it just helps to know that no one has it perfectly. And you know just having that exchange of that moment, it just, it helps a lot.

Oh, definitely. I think too earlier the point of view of like picking the right battles. I was reading this book, it’s called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck.

Oh yeah.

Great book. It’s actually like a pretty easy read. I usually don’t like, you know, just like very kind of like high-level like type of self-improvement books like those usually don’t really do it for me, But that one was actually pretty decent. I think his whole thing is like it’s just you should just expect that hard things are always going to come, like all the time there’s going to be obstacles. I’m going to cry, there’s going to be downs. And so no matter what, it’s going to be hard and you kind of just need to face that and just admit that that’s gonna happen and that you can get over it and you have…you kind of just like pick the battles that you think are worth kind of like fighting for. So his book is like very much about like, I mean like the title can kinda says it’s like I’m not giving a fuck, like he means that in a way like not just like dont do anything and just like cross your away in life, but like there’s kind of an art to not caring so much about certain things like for us, we shouldn’t be looking at like the one return that comes back to us and get so down on it and that like affects our like productivity like for the next week, you know, like it’s okay. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. That’s not the right customer. We’re going to find the real ones, you know, and so that’s been like a weight off my shoulder.

Yeah, and I think it’s just that creates an environment for you to just be more resilient and to just tackle the next big thing.

Yeah, yeah definitely ‘cos you need so much energy and so much like mind space to do it. So really gotta pick your battles.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Well I think that is kind of the end of our episode.

Yay!

Yay! I know, I am so glad that you came on to the show and you’re so open and vulnerable about all of your experience whether it was personal or with Nimble Made. So thank you so much for sharing everything Tanya.

Oh my goodness, no, thank you so much for having me. I think the podcast base is so great ‘cos you mentioned that I am being vulnerable but I don’t really feel like you know that it’s going to be like broadcast into like everyone. So, it feels like a safe space and you’re so nice and so awesome and so it just feels like im talking to like a really good friend.

Oh, that means so much. Thank you.

Yeah, of course.

Hope you enjoyed listening to my conversation with Tanya.

Music was produced by Paulina Vo. You can follow her on Instagram @vobot spelled v o b o t. On Soundcloud at Paulina Vo.

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