Talk_Danae Io and Bin Koh

[Project The Great Museum_Talk]

Danae Io is an artist living and working in Rotterdam and Athens. She is part of the research collective ‘System of Systems’ and co-organizes the research initiative ‘Schemas of Uncertainty’. Her writing has been published by Sternberg Press, Serralves Museum of Contemporary Art, and Contra Journal. Her work has been exhibited at Kunstverein Amsterdam; Sub Rosa Space, Athens; Grace, Athens; De School, Amsterdam; Stroom, The Hague; Het Nieuwe Instituut, Rotterdam; Rozenstraat, Amsterdam; Display, Prague; Sign, Groningen; SESI Gallery of Art, São Paulo; and Rich Mix, London among others. She has collaborated with Rosa Luxemburg-Stiftung; Arts Catalyst, London; Sandberg Instituut, Amsterdam; State of Concept, Athens; and San Serriffe, Amsterdam among others. She is a tutor at MA Critical Inquiry Lab, Design Academy Eindhoven. website

***Originally this conversation is conducted as audio talk. You can listen here.

BK: Hello Danae, how are you?
DI: I’m doing well, I’m in Athens now.
BK: Amazing. How’s the weather there?
DI: it’s good. It’s kind of sunny, but not really. But warm. BK: Nice. Amazing. How was your Christmas?
DI: Um, I don’t know. COVID is strange but good.

BK: Yeah. It’s everywhere. Well, today, I called you to ask you a few questions. I’m doing this interview for the show called The Great museum. And it’s going to be open for an international audience, but especially for Korean audiences. I think they’re very curious about your life in the Netherlands as an artist. And I would like to ask you to introduce yourself.

DI: I’m an artist from Athens in Greece, and I live in the Netherlands now. And as we said, I’m based in Rotterdam. I work around the themes of language and its role in social political infrastructures. But I also teach at the Design Academy Eindhoven. And I run a research group at Sandberg Institute at the Rietveld Academy, in Amsterdam. I’m also part of a collective called System of systems that looks into the migration processing systems in Europe through a kind of an interdisciplinary way that works within artists, but also policymakers, having conversations around the role of technology and bureaucracy in the European asylum-seeking process.

BK: Amazing. I mean, you’ve been working a lot for so many different discourses and different social issues. And also like your, your work is touching upon the system of language as well. Is that correct? Or the history of language as well? Can you tell me more about your current work? Is that something related to anything that you’re working on?

DI: Yeah, I think what I’m working on now, which is a film titled sprouts of a Dragon’s Teeth. I guess it kind of is the work that breaches a lot of my interest in discourses I’ve been working on. It’s very, it is indeed very much about language again. But is more broadly looking at the relationship between the idea of Greece and the idea of Europe? But also, how does that manifest? How does written language I guess, favor? So the recording of some histories versus others? So thinking it is where it is also kind of touching on this myth of Cadmus. That’s basically the bear the person who brought the finishing alphabet to the Greek supposedly, and then the Greek alphabet merged both consonants and vowels. And there are many interpretations of this myth and some of them are related to the institution of the state and the violence that any institution of a state creates and perpetuates. But also how, like the alphabet is seen as A metaphor for the introduction of bureaucracy and into empire building. Because, yeah, this kind of right the phonetic writing system is very easy and allows more power to be guided at a distance and therefore empires built quicker. That is the other interpretation of the myth.

BK: Right? So you started from this, from Greek mythology, and expanded this idea toward more the general European bureaucracy, bureaucratic discourse, or talking about coloniality.

DI: Yeah, exactly. Because I guess empire building and colony ality are pretty well linked, but also, I’m very interested in how this idea of Greece, as an origin point, has been used by Western European states to kind of give reason to their existence. But also give an origin point that allows them to then colonize other cultures. And their relationship between this idea of the origin point that’s being used, to actually just expand and colonize other places. But also how Greece’s at the same time valorizing, Western Europe very much because it seems like the correct evolution of the ancient sea. Glory, because grace is currently always at like, a default and always not good enough for what Europe is meant to be. I’m interested in the cracks between these different interpretations of the two ideas.

BK: That’s really interesting. And I wonder so you’re planning to show this film in Art Rotterdam this year. Hopefully, If it is not postponed due to COVID. And were you funded by the Mondriaan fund last year? And do you have any, like, I wonder how your proposal was? Or like, what was your idea? When you are planning this, is this great, like film work with the Dutch institution, like the relation between the Dutch institution and using the Greek mythology and Greek history?

DI: Um, I mean, I don’t remember exactly how I had framed it, but definitely, I framed my, the rest of my work in relation to this project. And then I think it was in a much earlier stage of an idea. So, we spoke about the concept of the coloniality of the phonetic alphabet, right, which is something that Walter Mignolo has spoken a fair amount on. And I guess how this, thinking a bit beyond the actual structure, the actual phonetic alphabet, but the idea of the phonetic alphabet as like a system that can be that breaks sound into uniform, smaller, equal parts that are put together to then make your words so this, this way of compartmentalizing a complex thing into smaller parts, also has some kind of structure in relation to the assembly line. So I think the starting point was fairer and that’s what I had spoken about in my proposal. Fine. But it grew a bit differently.

BK: Well, I’m looking forward to seeing the work soon, and about your teaching at Design Academy Eindhoven, Can you tell me more about it, which department and also your experience as a Greek artist. Working teaching in Dutch art school.

DI: I’m teaching it at the critical inquiry lab, which is a Master’s course, at the Design Academy. And this is, I guess my second full year only did smaller parts before but it is very interesting and is one of my favorite things. Because actually, it’s very flexible in the way that I conduct my class. And I have to do a bit of critical theory and also some workshops on things like, how to research or how to think about, I guess, methodologies to think about the student's practice. And yeah, and I don’t know, it’s been I guess the Netherlands is, isn’t accommodating at the same time, always. So, no, I feel like it’s definitely, I don’t know. It’s, it was very, it’s been a very good experience in that it’s opened itself to me, and it’s a very good opportunity for stuff that I really enjoy. But then, I think it’s, I don’t know, I guess it happens in many places, but it’s always obvious that I am not. I’m not Dutch in this place.

BK: Is that a thing? Are there any obstacles that you don’t speak Dutch? or Is there something that you feel very uncomfortable with? Since you don’t, you’re not the speaker in school?

DI: I think the speaking part is actually totally fine. Thankfully. I guess it’s just a more general thing than living in the Netherlands, which I’m sure you’ve also experienced. there are some things that are more geared towards people being from the Netherlands rather than someone else, even if you’re European. But I guess that’s a common thing among many places.

BK: Do you have a similar experience like living in the Netherlands in everyday life? And I’m curious about your life in Rotterdam because you moved there from Amsterdam. The first time to study and then after finishing school your master you move to Rotterdam, and I wonder what it feels like or what is the difference between living in Amsterdam in Rotterdam?

DI: It’s been an interesting change. And I feel like the difference I guess is that Amsterdam is so touristy.

BK: Definitely, like so touristy.
DI: Yeah, I mean, now almost gone. I guess it’s a bit less.

BK: It’s still touristy even during the midst of COVID. I was very surprised by how touristy it can be.

DI: Yeah, like one of them doesn’t is like that, in this sense. And also seems much more multicultural and more interesting, less segregated, because I feel like obviously, Amsterdam is multicultural too, but it’s very specific and like where which neighborhood is white, which one is not like if you’re very segmented, but for them is a bit more. Like it’s also because support for the city and migration is more embedded in the city over time. Doesn’t feel as separate. But also, a lot more Dutch is spoken in Rotterdam versus Amsterdam.

BK: Um So there are a lot of international immigrants who are able to speak Dutch fluently or like the second or third generation okay? And then like Amsterdam is more like professional expats or whatever and what they are calling.

DI: I think it’s more, I prefer it as more and the architect course. BK: Do you like it there?

DI: I really like it. I mean, it’s been, I moved just before Corona. So it’s a bit difficult to say how it would be otherwise. Yeah, everything’s changed now. But I really like the architecture. And I find it very interesting. And also, I find it very cool that it’s the biggest port in Europe. So close to it.

BK: Right. Sure. That’s really cool. Actually, the idea that you’re actually living in the biggest port in Europe is just realized. It’s massive.

DI: Yeah, it was such a good experience. When I went there. I found it so interesting. Every commodity going to Europe is passing through. Yeah. So many drugs.

BK: Yeah, it’s actually insane. So many things like physical stuff, like being moved like transit, in transit, like moving. I think the Rotterdam art scene is quite interesting and is quite different. There is Willem de Kooning Academy.

DI: Also there is Melly, mainly smaller space and then really nice like Shimmer or Tale of Tub. And there’s also this very nice bookshop next to it called books at our house.

BK: Cool. I don’t know.

DI: There’s a lot of things going on for smaller cities I think. And a lot of interesting people and artists live there. It’s just, it’s been a little bit tougher to tell how it would be as a full experience because of so many lockdowns.

BK: Yeah, but before the lockdown, or when we were in Amsterdam, the Rotterdam scene is always pretty cool, but for some reason, it is because we have to take a train and like, it’s quiet, it feels a bit far, but it’s not far at all. In Seoul, it takes 45 minutes to get anywhere.

DI: Also in London. But now that I’m so used to the trains, it doesn’t feel that much to me. And I actually travel a lot because I also go to Eindhoven. Right. And it’s so close to Belgium.

BK: That’s true.

DI: So it’s actually really well connected.

BK: Location-wise, Rotterdam is like a hub.

DI: Yeah, and it’s really nice because there’s a lot of nice art things also in Brussels, of course, and into work. You can get quite quickly to different places.

BK: Yeah. And you also still come to visit Amsterdam, you’re traveling to Amsterdam for this research group at Sandberg Institute and Eindhoven for teaching Design Academy. And he thinks that the inverters are a good connection. You can travel quite easily with trains, right?

DI: Yeah, definitely.

BK: You are still working with the Sandberg Institute where we studied together. And how is it? I’m guessing that it’s also quite a different research group in Teaching in Design Academy. And can you tell me more about this research group?

DI: Yeah, it is actually pretty different. The research group started, I guess, in 2018, after we graduated, and it is about, it’s looking at ways of approaching the future. Or the idea of the future. And then it started, it’s interested in things like divination, or machine learning, different types that kind of approximate or attempt to speak about or project the future. And so it’s taking place as like an inter-discipline term, interdisciplinary, but also

interdepartmental, like cross-departmental action. kind of initiative that takes Yeah, past people from all different departments, but also, sometimes alumni. Sometimes, either, because I’ve seen somewhere, For instance, we have a lot of Ph.D. students from different places. There’s quite a variety, the people that are there, sometimes even BA, it’s a much different experience than the Masters because everyone is somehow invested in this particular theme. So the conversation starts a bit easier, or like, we speak on the same level, we don’t feel like there’s not some, we discuss the texts in a, in a more, let’s say, not open, but in a way that people bring in with them more things and share their own research. While sometimes at the Masters, we also have the syllabus we go through. So a bit of a different approach. And it’s been very interesting because you really get to approach the subject so differently through everyone’s experience. And people sometimes, you know, just have such varied interests in the theme. From people being very, very much interested in the technological aspect, or more, the esoteric aspect. And then it’s just so it’s always so fascinating when we have conversations and all these things come together.

BK: I also participated at the beginning. And it was really interesting how interesting topics that you bring to the table are so new to everyone. And also like the collection of the texts was also very well-curated, interesting, and critical. Is the project partially funded by Sandberg Institute?

DI: exactly. At first, when we started, we also funded publication, a collective publication we did, which we’re also a part of, but we also had invited other theorists and artists to respond to the themes and had a symposium, and Sandberg supported all of that. But now it’s taking it’s a bit more, it’s a bit less so. So we also have some stimulating expansion that we’ve done a website with the kind of collates all the material that has been generated through the different research groups.

BK: The Stimulering Fond is the national funding for designers and architects and like digital art culture, just like to explain and how was it easy for you to do your work? came with Callum Copy. Yeah. Was it easy for you to initiate this research group through some work?

DI: Yeah, I mean, I think to initiate it, it was pretty well supported by Sandberg. And then the Stimulering fund was also pretty generous. When we initiated with Calum, we both the year before we were both very interested in, like, the role of prediction in contemporary culture and how predictive algorithms are becoming more and more part of the fabric of everyday devices or things we use? And we’re interested in, like, how this amount of prediction is an aggregation of predictive structures is affecting what the future is or will be? And that was kind of our standard starting point. And then we think it was over the summer that we tried to, like, work this together and see how we want to proceed without thinking. And then we had the idea of doing the research group, and we proposed that to the Sandberg Institute, which we had just graduated from. And they because when we were there, there was no cross-departmental thing at all. And we really, I don’t know, we, as a group of friends, were all from different departments. And we really enjoyed having those conversations.

BK: Yeah, it is quite interesting that we have our friend group from all different departments. Our conversation was very stimulating and interesting. And very unexpected too.

DI: Yeah, exactly. So this, why we proposed it thinking that maybe it would be a nice opportunity to bring different people from departments together, and also maybe some alumni. And it really, I think, they was pretty excited by it. So they supported us. And it’s very nice to see that from that time onwards, they have actually started to work with more and more cross-departmental initiatives. And it really feels like a good starting point.

BK: Yeah. And then you’ve been like working, working together with them for almost like three years by now.

DI: Yeah!
BK: That’s pretty amazing.

DI: Yeah, it’s always uncertain how it’s going to continue. But it’s so far. It’s continued until now. And I wonder what will happen next?

BK: Well, thanks so much for your talk today. And I yeah, I’m very looking forward to seeing your work, the final films that you’re working on recently. And I hope you have an amazing time in Athens. And I will see you very soon in person.

DI: Thank you!