**Apologies in advance for the shameful number of typos, etc., that are probably in here. I’ve got to run but wanted to give you some sort of response. It’s been nice discussing this with you, even if we don’t agree on everything — sometimes I forget to question myself as often or thoroughly as I should.
“What Spencer is doing is a protected activity, assuming it’s not done in a private venue, and the “inspiration” does not cross the line into “incitement”. I don’t want to live in a country where they CAN’T engage in those activities, and neither do you. Trust me on this one.”
Again, I’m not asking the government to intervene or curb anyone’s rights. At the same time, I’m not going to criticize people who stand up and say No to Spencer, et al.
“Logical fallacy here. Because it is granted that “being punched out” will cause their movement to fail, it does NOT logically follow that NOT getting punched out” will enable their movement to succeed. Their movement is absurdly tiny. He’s run that same meeting in Washington DC for what, 10 years? They get the same 200-odd misfits each year. You’re overreacting, in my view.”
Fair enough, but if something is known to work, why not give it a shot? Here’s the possible outcomes, neo-Nazism continuing to grow and becoming prominent in the U.S. or stopping it now and letting it die off. Yeah, it might die off on its own, but that’s a big gamble. The smart money would bet on taking the small risk to end it now in order to avoid a potentially much larger problem and bigger risk down the road. We know there’s an issue that is manageable now. Why not deal with it rather than hoping it will go away or risking dealing with it down the road, when perhaps we won’t be able to. And I don’t know that it’s “absurdly tiny.” People like Milo (granted, not as extreme as Spencer in regards to nationalism) sell out venues. Breitbart is an amazingly popular website. The Southern Poverty Law Center says hate group membership is rapidly rising. There are other indicators that these movements are growing, and is often the case, a small vocal group can have wildly disproportionate influence.
There is no credible evidence that white supremacists are “in the White House.” There is a huge chasm between Bannon’s economic nationalism and white supremacy. The two are systemically unrelated.
I think Bannon is a white nationalist, but it’s not just Bannon. Stephen Miller, Sebastian Gorka and others in the White House have been linked to white nationalism and white supremacy. How many does it take?
“I would have to see a bill being seriously debated in Congress that unambiguously gives the majority rights that the minority does not have, or removes rights from the minority. The chances that that occurs approach nil.”
Let me think on this and get back to you. My thoughts on it are a bit muddled, and I have to leave in a few minutes.
“No. And being a Muslim in the US, I’ve thought about this more personally than you have. US immigration laws are not particularly restrictive compared to other nations, and all that’s happening right now is that they’re being enforced properly for the first time in…..well, ever.”
True, U.S. laws are not as restrictive as those of many other countries. I will say that plenty of people do feel threatened, and families are being torn apart (this was going on under Obama as well). I’ll just leave it at that — others do feel threatened, right now.
“Then you’re an undependable partner in democracy.”
Many of our laws are undemocratic. I have no respect for law or authority in and of itself. I’m an anarcho-socialist on a good day, a progressive liberal when I’m being lazy. I believe in direct democracy rather than representative government, and I think our government is far too authoritarian. So, no, I do not have any faith or respect in rule of law in many regards. Far too often in history, “law” has come down on the wrong side of morality.
“Well, I am more comfortable by half, I suppose. You seem to be acknowledging the risk that people who will punch an obvious Nazi might, in an angry mob scene, decide somebody who just happens to like his hair cut short is, without any evidence other than a buzz cut, a Nazi and punch him too. But, what you’re not acknowledging is that there would be no risk of that at all if people would just not punch other people. That’s my point.
I am curious as to your opinion of the woman at the Berkely/Milo riot who was pepper sprayed by a protester simply because she was wearing a MAGA cap?”
I think a lot of what has happened with some of the antifa groups/protestors is problematic. I can’t remember the details of that particular woman at the Milo protests, but if your description is accurate then I would say it’s problematic. Hitting people who are already down/out is also problematic, and I’ve seen that in some videos. Even in war there are rules (or there are supposed to be anyway). There should also definitely be some basic decency involved street violence. I’ve been in a lot of fights. I’ve never fought someone I knew I could beat unless they gave me absolutely no other option, and anytime I’ve gotten anyone down I’ve always given them the chance to get up and walk away. I’m not advocating bullying, and much as I hate to admit, and as much as Spencer et al are bullies themselves, some of what has gone down at some of the antifa protests amounts to bullying. But I’m not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. A few assholes doesn’t mean the whole movement is wrong.
“The debate we are having is one of risk. I see no indication whatsoever that any of these anti-things you mention (anti-immigration and anti-LGBT sentiment, along with Islamaphobia and general racism) are becoming entrenched.
If the survey data starts to show an increase in these tendencies, I reserve the right to change my mind. But I likely will not want to punch anyone.”
I might come back to this one as well. I do think Trump and his crew, as well as Spencer and his, are making moves to normalize/entrench these things (to varying degrees), but I’m not sure how effective arguing it would be — it would probably be easy to counter.
And I don’t want you to punch anyone. I’m not saying anyone has to or even should resort to violence. I’m simply saying that violence has worked before in some situations and could work again, and that it has played a role in pretty much every mass movement in history, even the Civil Rights Movement. But everybody has to do their own thing and work in ways they are comfortable with. I understand and respect nonviolence as a political strategy, but I’m also not going to criticize those who pursue other means when the stakes are high, especially if they feel the stakes are high for them personally.
