Donald Trump’s “Locker Room Talk”: What It Is and What It Isn’t

When video and audio from 2005 revealed Donald Trump stating that he can’t stop himself from kissing and touching women he finds beautiful regardless of their desire to be kissed or touched, that he can get away with forcing himself on women because of the power he holds as a celebrity, and that he can go so far as to “grab them by the pussy,” the Republican presidential candidate downplayed his words as mere “locker room talk.” If this is the man’s defense for what has quickly become the most publicly repudiated statement of a campaign full of publicly repudiated statements, it merits closer examination to see if it holds up to scrutiny.

It strikes me that most people don’t have sustained experience with men’s locker rooms: women by definition don’t have access — one exclusionary practice they can actually be thankful for — and many men simply chose not to pursue team sports. So allow me to describe my qualifications: I’ve been in locker rooms, and I’m not talking about the luxuriously antisocial kind you find in fancy gyms. I’m talking about the crowded, loud, grimy kind where hormone-laden high school boys socialize before and after violently smashing into each other out on the playing field. Like Trump, my highest level of athletic activity was high school sports. Like Trump, I played the quintessentially red-blooded American male sport of football. Like Trump, my high school was a private, all-boys institution. And like Trump for a fourth time, I attended high school at a time when feminism was still a bad word that most young men and women alike shunned.

Yes, I’ve been in locker rooms full of sex-obsessed young men whose awareness of the female experience amounts to an all-encompassing blind spot, and I’ve never heard anything like Donald Trump’s so-called “locker room talk.”

I don’t want to overgeneralize — I can only speak for my own experiences. But my school wasn’t located in some hippy commune deep in a mystically progressive forest, though I would love to see such a school’s football team. I went to high school in the deep red state of Arizona, whose newspaper of record has endorsed the Republican candidate in every presidential election since it began publication in 1890 (until it ended its 126-year GOP streak by endorsing Hillary Clinton last month even before Trump’s Access Hollywood scandal surfaced). While I can’t speak to what team locker rooms are like today, or what others were like back in my time and earlier, I would say I have a decent sense of what can pass for locker room talk, and what crosses a line into darker territory.

WHAT “LOCKER ROOM TALK” IS

In the years I spent frequenting my high school football locker room before and after practices and games, I heard guys discuss the young women they found attractive at the all-girls school conveniently located on the other side of our practice field. There was bragging about sexual experiences from those who were having them, along with the concomitant gossip, but never was there any discussion of these experiences being anything but consensual. (Of course, this self-reporting does not guarantee consent, but certainly no one was boasting openly about doing anything to a woman against her will.) I can’t remember any insults about women, which leads me to believe this was not a common occurrence, but because my football days ended fifteen years ago, it is entirely possible that these did come up occasionally given the emotional immaturity of most high schoolers and the melodramatic flair of their romances, not to mention the fact that such insults and double-standards are tragically widespread in society. I imagine similar talk at the girls’ school about the boys at ours — discussions of hotness, descriptions of intimate encounters, insults — though my teammates and I were as clueless then about the gendered power dynamics that keep these two phenomena from being the same as most of us probably still are today.

All of this I would classify as locker room talk. Some of it is natural and relatively harmless. Some of it is inappropriate and even potentially hurtful if it goes beyond the locker room. For Donald Trump, locker room talk isn’t some rarity we learn about from a leaked recording; half of what Trump publicly says and tweets for all the world to hear qualifies as locker room talk. Trump’s seventeen years of interviews on the Howard Stern Show are nothing but locker room talk of a decidedly crass variety, in which he constantly rated and critiqued women’s bodies and discussed his various sexual exploits such as engaging in threesomes, having sex with women on their periods, and engaging in extramarital affairs. In an internationally televised episode of The Apprentice in 2013, when Trump said to a female contestant, “It must be a pretty picture, you dropping to your knees,” that was locker room-style talk. Trump’s numerous comments about his own daughter Ivanka — calling her “hot,” saying she has “the best body,” giving permission for others to call her “a piece of ass,” and stating repeatedly that he would date her if he weren’t married and her father — are disturbing, incestuous examples of locker room talk that would get a guy ostracized in most locker rooms. He openly called Megyn Kelly, the moderator of one of the GOP primary debates, a “bimbo,” said people wouldn’t vote for his primary opponent Carly Fiorina because she wasn’t attractive, and has referred to other women as “dogs” and “fat pigs.” After the first presidential debate last month, Trump went off on a 3 a.m. Twitter tirade against former Miss Universe Alicia Machado, whom he had previously called “Miss Piggy” and “Miss Housecleaning” in a racist reference to her ethnicity, encouraging people to watch a “sex tape” of her that was actually from a Spanish reality TV show.

For Donald Trump, “locker room talk” isn’t something he gets caught doing; it’s something he has been doing openly in speeches, interviews, on TV, on Twitter, in his books, and in person his entire life. And for the most part, society has given him a pass on all these things. They’re lewd and annoying, and they set a bad example for those who might look up to him, but they really are just words. Just “locker room talk.” While there is reasonable discussion as to how this form of male camaraderie could shape attitudes in a way that contributes to dangerous behavior down the road, none of it in itself involves or celebrates the violation of a woman’s rights or bodily safety. Admittedly, that’s a ridiculously low bar to set for the general acceptability of any practice, but it’s one that Donald Trump‘s recently revealed comments to Billy Bush are not able to rise above.

WHAT “LOCKER ROOM TALK” ISN’T

That’s because Trump’s comments were not “locker room talk.” They were an unapologetic admission of past sexual assault and an unswerving intention to perpetrate more in the future. They were a spoken manifestation of rape culture. He wasn’t joking around. He stated that he starts kissing and groping women not because there’s mutual interest but simply because he has interest regardless of how the women feel. He stated, and I have to repeat it because those who think it’s defensible should be able to hear it without being bothered, that he “can grab them by the pussy,” and his recognition that he is able to get away with this behavior because of his celebrity is also a clear recognition on his part that this is a violation. You don’t “get away with” innocent actions. You get away with crimes, and that’s what Trump has done here. And it’s clear he wasn’t treating that Access Hollywood bus as a somber confessional; he was at ease with what his own language suggests he knew was a crime. Not only that, but because it was Trump driving the conversation rather than Billy Bush, it is clear that by volunteering all this information about his reprehensible behavior, he was actually bragging about how he has violated and makes a continuous practice of violating the rights and safety of women.

WHY DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE CALL IT?

Why does it matter what we call Trump’s remarks? Because the term “locker room talk” suggests that such opinions are nothing but a normal, and by implication acceptable, part of being a man. They are not, but a whole generation of young people growing up under a Trump presidency, hearing comment after comment and tweet after tweet judging and objectifying women’s bodies, could grow up thinking that they are. Don’t think for a second that this is the last time you’re going to hear Trump say something disparaging about a woman.

Another reason we shouldn’t call this “locker room talk” is because it is more than just talk, more than just fantasizing or admiration of physical beauty. It is a report of habitual actions. He wasn’t discussing some nebulous desire to behave dominantly toward women; he was stating clearly that he routinely violates the bodies of real-life human beings and is able to get away with it.

At least one out of every five women in the United States has been a victim of sexual assault at some point in her life. Every one of us knows a victim, whether they’ve chosen to make their experience known to you or not. Their relationship to you is not what makes their struggles matter, but recognizing how close you are to something that might read purely as a lifeless statistic can help spur a sense of moral urgency in us. So let me spur it further: at that one-out-of-five rate, which is a conservative estimate, it’s nearly certain that at least one of the women you feel closest to in your life — a friend, a wife, a sister, a mother — has been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted. And as she was stripped of her dignity and experiencing the most horrific terror of her life, it was a man like Donald Trump holding her down, proudly believing he could get away with it.

RESPONSES TO TRUMP’S DEFENDERS

Because the highest (though perhaps overly idealistic) goal of this essay is to reach out to Trump supporters and undecideds rather than simply rant to an echo chamber of like-minded individuals, I want to anticipate and address some of your defenses of Trump. But first, let me point out one thing: At no point in this essay have I made an argument that you should vote for Hillary Clinton or defended any of her policies. I have simply made an argument that you ought not vote for Donald Trump; whether you write someone in, vote for Clinton, vote for a third-party candidate, or don’t vote at all is beyond the purview of this piece. Now to address some possible defenses of Trump’s recently leaked remarks:

“He stated that they were just words and that he never actually behaved in the way he said he behaved.”

This’ll be quick. Which scenario is more likely: that Trump was telling the truth when he thought he was having an unrecorded, private conversation with a fellow male celebrity? Or that Trump was lying in what he thought was a private conversation, falsely confessing to actions that could result in lawsuits or criminal prosecution and that are in line with his comments over the course of decades, and is only now telling the truth at a moment when it would be devastatingly inconvenient if people thought he actually did those things? Use common sense.

“He has changed since then.”

Really? At what point did he change? Does he seem any different now in the sorts of things he does and says than he did back then? Don’t get me wrong, people are capable of change. George W. Bush appears to have genuinely changed after sobering up at age 40. There are clear examples of differences in his personal behavior before and after. Where is that for Trump? And why does he try to downplay his words as nothing but “locker room talk” if they’re something that required him to change as a person? Is it a coincidence that Trump’s first mention of changing came in response to leaked views that would be damaging to him if people thought he hadn’t changed? Again, use common sense.

“Bill Clinton sexually assaulted women, so you can’t criticize Trump.”

Yes, Bill Clinton has faced allegations of sexual assault, and it is more than likely that at least some of these allegations are true. If you find that reprehensible, then you should find it equally reprehensible that Donald Trump has faced, and is currently facing, allegations of sexual assault. Among the more publicly known accusations against Trump is one from his then-wife Ivana Trump, who recounted a violent rape at Donald’s hands in a deposition that was covered in a book about Trump; their divorce settlement was likely conditioned on Ivana not speaking ill of Donald, as is common practice in acrimonious celebrity divorces. A business partner has accused Trump of repeatedly forcing himself upon her in the 1990s. Numerous other women have accused him of kissing them on the lips and touching them without permission. And a longstanding accusation that Trump violently raped a 13-year-old girl at one of the infamous sex parties hosted by Trump’s longtime friend Jeffrey Epstein, who is himself now serving a prison sentence for soliciting sex from a minor after an investigation also uncovered evidence of underage sex and pornography at his house, recently got a hearing date because the judge found the allegations to have merit, especially given that Epstein’s party planner at the time has signed on as a witness to the crime — a much higher level of corroboration than most rape cases are able to have.

I am well aware that Bill Clinton was also an acquaintance of Epstein, and that Bill has engaged in sexual improprieties and may very well be guilty of sexual assault. Fortunately, Bill Clinton is not running for president. Hillary Clinton is. If you want to lump her in with Bill on these charges, be aware that blaming a woman for her partner’s sexual assaults is a huge breakdown of both logic and ethics, as well as a double-standard that a man would never be held to if his wife sexually assaulted someone.

And for the record, let’s not pretend like Trump’s pre-debate press conference with Bill Clinton’s victims is anything but a desperately opportunistic attempt to distract from Trump’s own scandal. In a 1998 interview with Fox News, Trump said of the Clinton victims he now claims to champion, “His victims are terrible. He is, he is really a victim himself. The whole group, Paula Jones, Lewinsky — it’s just a really unattractive group. I’m not just talking about physical.” What a knight in shining armor.

“All famous men are easy targets for sexual assault allegations.”

Actually, in practical terms, it’s not all that easy to allege sexual assault, especially against a thin-skinned person like Donald Trump who routinely sues people who criticize him for libel. Allegations need considerable detail to be considered worthy of consideration in the court of public opinion, and the unjust but real social stigma facing sexual assault victims is generally enough to keep people from making frivolous or manufactured accusations. And of course there’s the fact that the vast majority of famous men don’t ever face such charges. It’s not all that hard to avoid sexual assault allegations as long as you don’t sexually assault anyone. While baseless accusations are not unprecedented, the larger the number of accusers, the less likely the already-unlikely scenario of a fraudulent allegation becomes.

“We all make mistakes.”

Okay, so let’s let Charles Manson out of prison. Of course we all make mistakes, but there is a certain threshold of mistakes that you cannot cross, with that threshold getting higher with the greater importance of the position you hold. For the leader of the most powerful county in the world, we should hold candidates to a pretty high standard. Again, since I know what your gut reaction is here, I’m not telling you Hillary Clinton does or doesn’t meet that standard; I’m just saying you can’t ignore Trump’s problems by talking about someone else’s. And I can’t think of anyone I would feel comfortable having in any position knowing that he has no regard for a woman’s consent.

It is only because Trump’s laundry list of objectionable comments over the sixteen months of his candidacy have slowly built up public expectations of his boorishly unpresidential behavior that his remarks about his ability to grab women “by the pussy” with impunity have not instantly disqualified him in the minds of all voters.

“Women don’t matter.”

If you can overlook the behavior Donald Trump has admitted to, it may be worth asking yourself if this opinion is the actual basis of your defense of the GOP candidate, because Trump has now robbed you of any rational or moral ground to stand on when it comes to the dignity of the female person. If it is, then you and I have too fundamental a disagreement to find any common ground upon which to further the goal of a prosperous and just country, half of whose citizens live knowing that the threat apparent in Donald Trump’s words is all too real.