Who is Nobel Laureate Prof. Brian Schmidt?
I interviewed Nobel Laureate Prof. Brian Schmidt, who received a Nobel Prize in Physics — alongside Saul Perlmutter and Adam Riess — for discovering the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. He is now the Vice Chancellor of the Australian National University (ANU).
I ask Brian about his day-to-day life, his methods to deal with stress, his vision for the ANU and its culture, as well as his personal trials in overseeing the university during COVID and the adjustment from being a researcher to the head of a billion-dollar institution.
You can watch the full recording of this interview on Youtube, listen to it on Spotify, and follow my future content on Instagram. Links are provided at the bottom of this article.
Full Interview Transcript
Elvis:
Professor Brian Schmidt is a Nobel Laureate and has been the Vice Chancellor of the Australian National University since 2016. He has overseen major campus infrastructure redevelopment and the university’s pandemic response. Today, we’ll be discussing Brian’s experiences and challenges as the Vice Chancellor in an unprecedented epoch in the university’s history. Brian, thank you so much for joining me today.
Brian:
Good to be here with you, Elvis.
Elvis:
The series is BNOC (Big Name on Campus) After Hours. So as we were chatting about, it’s quite special for us to get the biggest name on campus for the season finale. And despite the importance of the title of Vice Chancellor, I think it’s hard to imagine what you actually do in your day-to-day work from a student’s point of view. Could you run me through a day in the life of the Vice Chancellor?
Brian:
Yeah, well, a Vice Chancellor’s life is very busy. And you’re simultaneously trying to understand what’s going on across the university and make sensible decisions about how the university is running, and what it might do in the future. You also have this overlay of trying to raise money, whether through government or through philanthropy, to get support. So it’s an all-encompassing job; it’s as many hours as you can stand in a week, if I can be honest. And so there’s a certain amount of resilience you have to have.
But you know, on my average day, we’ll have a large number of meetings — probably 12 to 15 would not be unusual. And then you need to find time to sit back and think about what needs to occur. But those meetings are finding out what’s happening and getting ideas from other people, and I try to meet with students, with staff, early career researchers, with external stakeholders — the whole shebang.
Elvis:
And how do you find that balance? Because I can imagine, as you said, you work as much as you possibly can handle. When you need to decompress or step back from the role, what’s your strategy to do that?
Brian:
So people will know I live on a farm outside of campus, about 20 minutes away. I have a winery. So I do try to, when I am not Vice Chancellor, I try to step away from being Vice Chancellor. I don’t read my email. For when I’m not being Vice Chancellor, I like doing physical activity on the farm that just kind of lets you decompress. I’m someone who needs to be busy continually. I’m not someone who just needs to chill out and do very little. I’m always active, but it’s nice to do something where I’m not worrying about the university all the time.
Elvis:
I mostly grew up in a country town called Moruya. I find growing up on a farm and doing things that are unrelated to my work, I’ll have ideas and different things will come to me, just as I’m maybe digging a hole planting a tree or doing some gardening. I wonder, do you find that you’ve come up with some great ideas and some great visions when you’re sort of meditating and doing your farm work and working on the winery?
Brian:
Absolutely. And so I used to always say my best work was done in the shower. But working on the farm, especially in the vineyard doing certain types of activity that’s quite manual. You can really, as you say, kind of meditate as you do it. You get clarity of thought because you’re not interrupted by everything.
So yeah, absolutely. That’s where I do a lot of my thinking. I do a lot of my thinking, actually, driving into work, I have a 25-minute commute, and there’s 25 minutes in there — the Tesla kind of drives itself . And you can just think. So I get that 25 minutes in and out each day to think about things. And so I find that quite useful as well.
Elvis:
Cracking into that thinking, you’ve come into the ANU with quite a vision; with the Kambri development, with this push to make the ANU at the quality of an Ivy League or one of these top-performing American schools. I wonder, what do you believe makes the ANU distinct from other universities, aside from it generally being an exceptional place of learning?
Brian:
Yeah, so I mean, a lot of those things. Kambri, for example, was not on my radar — believe it or not — when I started. It kind of emerged as a possibility. And I think it has been an important thing, but that was actually not my idea — that was others' ideas. So I guess what I see the ANU can be — and that was the vision — is being a place of learning that is centred around the student. And I mean that. That it’s not a massifide learning experience, where the students are an afterthought meant to cross-subsidise research.
And I’m sorry to say that is a model that’s quite prevalent here in Australia. And so I don’t really want it to be an Ivy League or Oxbridge institution. I want it to be a distinct Australian contemporary equivalent. And so I want to have a very Australian feeling of excellence, but have a real egalitarianism to it, which we benefit by only being 75 years old. We haven’t, hopefully, fallen into the long-term pitfalls of elitism. It’s really important to get that right.
And so from my perspective, it’s human. So that, yeah, we need to, for example, improve our digital systems and things. But we want those to make humans even more human, you know, make us superhuman by extending what we can do. And from the students' point of view, it means being able to be actively engaged in a cohort of fellow scholars that’s very diverse and outside your circle. And those scholars include the faculty, so that the faculty and the students here are much more on a level playing field than in other places, and there’s a lot of interaction. The faculty I want interacting with students. I want everyone teaching. I want each of our faculties to be second to none in Australia at what they do. And that means at our scale, which is much smaller than most of our competitors, we have to really focus on what we do, and do it well. So it’s a scale, so we don’t fracture into little subgroups. It’s a highly engaged active campus.
That, in the end, gives an experience that’s second to none. I want the students, when they hear I want them to have every opportunity, to take who and what they are and go out and change the world. And I think we can do that by creating, as I said, as much of a student-centred campus, and that’s a work in progress.
Elvis:
Yeah. And I think it’s wonderful to have that vision and to bring that to the campus so that we can sort of all get around that and work towards that. And thinking in terms of putting that into the Kambri space — it is a new space, and I think a lot of students are still seeing the space come into its own. When you speak of that vision, do you think the Kambri precinct is progressing towards it? And if so, what do you think it still needs to work on to hit that vision? Or if not, where do you think it’s starting to chart off course?
Brian:
Yeah, well, the first thing I note is that most of the students will not remember the previous Union Court. So, I always called Union Court our ode to the Deutsche Democratic Republic, which is East Germany for those who don’t remember what the DDR is. And it was an abandoned space. It was it just had no activity at all, and it’s easy to reflect that it was a wonderful time there. No, it wasn’t. No one used Union Court. And so the whole point of Kambri was to activate a space where people occupied and did stuff. So it’s meant to be a collision space of students, and hopefully faculty, to meet and do things. COVID, of course, has not made it easy to activate it. But you know, the level of activity here is, you know, orders of magnitude more than it used to be.
I would really like to see a strong cultural programme around it. I think universities are at their best when we bring in, you know, the arts and music. And you know, the old Union Court was famous in the 90s, for having amazing bands come through, I would like to see it once again bring interesting bands coming through all the time, and this has become a real focal point. But this time in something where the acoustics are actually kind of enjoyable.
The challenge we have is that the reason Canberra was that focal point in the past is that all bands drove from Sydney to Melbourne. And this was the place they overnighted did a concert and moved on. Now they all fly. So you actually have to have it be a destination for its own point. I think we’re big enough now to do that. So I’d really like to see those cultural activities occur. And I think they will occur over time. But it is the key for this place. And eventually, you know, we’ll get a richer, more diverse array of venues and a wider range of tastes and stuff. That’s going to take time again. COVID has really knocked things on their head. And I’m not sure that you want the university running your food outlets. The university is not very good at things like that. But we need to make sure there’s a space, I think, for a diversity of, you know, food outlets and things that goes beyond what we have right now.
Elvis:
I’m a musician, myself. And so I really resonate with the idea of having more live music here. I think when you hear musicians sitting on the lawn and singing, it really brings an energy to the place and I think it is Kambri at its best when it does have that culture there. One part of Kambri and building that culture is Woroni studio, and us as a media agency. And I’d be really interested to hear what you think is the role of student media at a university? And what do you think Woroni be doing better to embody that?
Brian:
Well, I mean, I think Woroni media is to serve the students for what you want. And quite frankly, it probably my view is, you guys need to think what it is that you want, and not have me interfere. So we can sponsor the room and you know, some of the funding that goes to running Woroni, but then it’s really up to you guys to set the agenda. Because you know, I’m 55 years old and kind of out of touch to what your generation, the current generation of students, really want. And so I think it needs to be a space for you to dictate what you want.
Elvis:
And you did mention the pandemic as well. And I can imagine, from a personal point of view, it’s extremely difficult to run a university. I was in Fenner at the time when the harsh lockdowns happened in 2021. And being a Vice Chancellor, you have a lot of responsibility to look after students through these pandemic times. I wonder how, on a personal level, you found it to try and make decisions and manage during what is a pretty unprecedented time?
Brian:
Yeah, so, you know, at some level, I’m a very evidence-based person. I’ve been talking to, you know, all of our public health and epidemiologists to understand what’s the likely occurrence. And in all cases, we sort of figured out what we thought was best for the community. What, going from a public health point of view, would make sure it doesn’t endanger people.
And then the job is, once you figure out what’s the right thing to do, you figure out how to pay for it. And you know, some of the things are very expensive, but you have to do it. And so, you know, we’re sitting there like okay, we’re gonna have students disadvantaged, but we have to do something. And so we set up structures and put money into them so that we could provide a sort of a safety net.
I was pretty disappointed with governmental response where the university did safety nets. That is not our responsibility, but we did it because the government let us down. As this community, I see this really is a community where we have responsibilities, and you know, I would have expected government to intervene — they didn’t, so we intervened.
Elvis:
As you established, as well, as Vice Chancellor a lot of your work is engaging with different stakeholders and, and keeping sort of everyone at peace with each other in Canberra. It’s quite a lot to step into from your background as an experienced researcher and Nobel Laureate to go to run a university. I think sometimes it can be hard to adjust from being in the research facility or at Mt. Stromlo, looking at papers, writing papers, and then essentially becoming a manager of a billion-dollar institution.
I wonder, why did you choose to apply for the role of Vice Chancellor? And having gone through things like the pandemic and various other issues that ANU has gone through, did you find it was more difficult than you anticipated it would be? And do you think you would regret or change your decision if you knew what you were in for in retrospect?
Brian:
Yeah, so I, you know, I had never thought about being a university president, if I can be honest. I was a passionate advocate of ANU pretty soon after I got here because it’s such a great environment. And what I saw due to, essentially, the policy framework put in place by successive generations of government, that the higher education sector, and the ANU included, was being forced to become more and more, I would say, commercial in its outlook. And quite frankly, it’s kind of not interesting. It was going to become a place that I no longer felt interested in working at.
And so I was initially trying to find Ian Young’s successor, about who could be someone that would have the appropriate vision, and gravitas to, you know, make sure that the university fulfilled what I thought was quite a… This mission of being really focused on students and excellence in research, and not trying to just grow because it’s easy to grow. Right. And you know, unconstrained growth of universities creates mediocrity — that’s the problem. So after asking a number of people, and I remember talking to Glyn Davis, he was an ANU alum, but was the head of University of Melbourne. I said,
“Hey, Glyn. Why don’t you become Vice Chancellor of ANU?”
And he looked at me and said,
“Are you crazy? Why would I do that?”
And I’m like, “Well, you do a lot.”
And he said, “No, given what you want to do, you should do that.”
And I was like, “Okay, well, I guess, I can’t think of anyone else who’s going to be able to do it.”
So I put my hat in the ring. And I knew it would be a really hard job. I had no illusions about the challenge of jobs.
In terms of managing a billion-dollar institution, and you know, it’s huge step up from Professor to running an institution. That, if I can be honest, has been, in some sense, less challenging than I expected. Because ultimately, big institutions like this have a whole range of people who know what they’re doing. And what they need is vision, leadership, and someone who understands how to interact and motivate people. Now, interacting with, motivating people, that’s something I have done a lot in my time. And understanding the basics of governance and decision-making and things. Those are just pretty foundational principles. And, you know, I’m a very foundational principles person, and then, like a philosopher as yourself, I can start with those. And I can usually flow on a sensible set of actions. So that, I mean, some people will disagree with the style of my leadership, because it’s not commercial in the same way, it’s very strategy based. And so I will trade off doing the right thing versus dollars every time.
And that is not a common thing within the sector. But I think it’s an important thing for a university. We are not companies, we are social institutions. So I don’t regret becoming Vice Chancellor; I found the job very much as I expected, incredibly challenging. I knew it would push me right to my edge. COVID was the next step up. Dealing with COVID and the lockdowns and stuff, which I know very traumatic for the students, were nothing compared to have to, you know, downsize University by 480 people.
Downsizing University by 480 people, that’s just brutal, right? Because you’re dealing with people’s lives. And so that’s been the hardest thing for me is just, you know, I love to be loved. Everyone loves to be loved. And there’s no way to have everyone love you when you do that to an institution. And that’s one of the big frustrations for me. It’s that the student, the staff, they see you make a decision. It’s hard to communicate everything I know of the basis of the decision.
Some people, they refuse to trust you, and they just assume you’re out to get them and that you are a corrupt, evil, terrible person. And they just want to blame you. And that’s fine to a point. But it’s the frustrating part of the job. So I’ve always tried to communicate values and the underpinning means of a decision and then as transparent as I can be, so that hopefully there’s a trust there that I am at least trying to do the right thing.
Elvis:
Yeah. And on that note of communication, I want to go through some rapid-fire questions, which are student FAQs about the Vice Chancellor. Who was your role model as a child?
Brian:
My role model as a child… God... Well, if I’m honest, was my mum and my dad, but it was an amalgam. My dad’s a scientist, my mum was, you know, did history, debate, and stuff. And I’m kind of a hybrid of the two, but if I’m honest, they’re my role models.
Elvis:
Wonderful. Do you fear losing your American accent? If so, why?
Brian:
I have not lost my American accent after 28 years. I’ve lived with it half my life, I say I’ll never lose it. No, it is just kind of amusing to me that I haven’t left it. I don’t really think about it until I hear myself. I’m like, “Whoa, I really sound still very American.”
Elvis:
Is there a best coffee on campus?
Brian:
Oh, there’s many good coffees. People will know that. There are some outstanding coffee on this campus — and University of Melbourne? Eat your heart out.
Elvis:
What podcasts are you currently listening to?
Brian:
I’m a big fan of a programme… It’s a guy from the BBC, Tim Harford, who talks around bad decisions and how they come from a behavioural economics point of view. And I think from a leadership point of view, everyone should listen about how bad decision-making occurs because one of my reflections on running a place is that — its Cautionary Tales, that’s the name of the podcast — is leadership is as much as much about not doing stupid things as doing the right thing. If you just don’t do stupid things, you’re well ahead of the pack. Cautionary Tales.
Elvis:
It’s been wonderful to have you — we are out of time now. But thank you so much for joining us in the studio for BNOC After Hours. As always, it’s great to have the biggest name on campus join us. So thank you.
Brian:
Thank you very much, Elvis. Good luck.
You can watch the full recording of this interview on Youtube, listen to it on Spotify, and follow my future content on Instagram.
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/elvisgleeson/
YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6TCqDlY_hM
SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5luXJ8sQB5YeCFYFZsZ4Ao?si=b5b6258a6de34603
