Analyzing “Asian Masculinity vs. “Western” Masculinity by Shadowsweep and Natalie Ng” — Part 4
The rise of the popularity of K-Pop, especially BTS, in Western countries has triggered a heavy debate about the best Asian representation.
You can find some of those discussion on the sub reddit AzianIdentity:
https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/8mo91c/do_you_think_that_the_rise_of_asian_music_artists/
OR
https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/8kqjmf/is_the_success_of_korean_boy_bands_in_us_and/
One popular opinion among Asian Americans on AzianIdentity is that K-Pop/BTS is an overall negative representation for Asians, because they are considered too feminine and it will eventually reinforce negative stereotypes about Asian men. There is one very detailed article on Medium which tries to support this and only this opinion, while dismissing any others.
On the first view, the article seems to be well written and also well researched. However, on the second view the article is actually very bad. It is really biased with a lot of errors in reasoning and arguing. I’m shocked the article is relatively well received by reddit users…
The forth section the article is really unprofessional und unscientific written, that’s why I’m going to tackle this section first.
Statements are never backed up by any sources or references and there are many errors in reasoning. The authors wrongly equate attractiveness with masculinity. The whole section resembles a straw man argument.
The authors have misconstrued that the opposition
1. thinks only status and power matter, while look doesn’t matter at all. This is not the case…
2. thinks traditional “masculinity” is owned by the west…
Nevertheless, I’m going through all of their statements and comment
PART 4 — FAQ / Frequently Asked Questions
Questions worth asking yourselves
Timing
● Japan (and later, the rest of Asia) “embraced” alternative masculinity afterAmerica destroyed Japan in WW2, controlled all levers of power, temporarily banned martial arts, rewrote pacifism and feminism into Japan’s constitution, and controlled Japanese media. Was it all a mere “coincidence”? See the write up about Johnny Kitagawa in the PART 1 and even more detail in PART 3.
Blaming USA for the flower boy look is a really quite a claim…
No comment…
Unexplained exceptions
● Why do many black men who are considered lower in status and power still able to out compete white men considered higher in status and power when it comes to attracting women? It is simply because they are more masculine and attractive, thereby proving that looks matter.
This is just wrong. In which way do black men out compete white men in dating white women?
Black men are doing so much worse in attracting white woman than white men (even though black men might be more masculine than white men, according to the definition of the authors)
Moreover, black men are doing much worse in attracting Asian women than Asian men (even though they are considered more masculine by the authors…) and black men are barely doing better than Asian men in attracting white women (even though they are not as much emasculated as Asian men in Media).
https://theblog.okcupid.com/race-and-attraction-2009-2014-107dcbb4f060
● Why are there so many involuntarily celibate white men despite their group holding the most power and status? Many even created MGTOW, MRA, alt right, and other anti-women hate groups. They are almost always physically unattractive, thereby proving that looks matter.
Looks do matter, this is common knowledge. However, you don’t have be attractive or super masculine as an white actor (not all actors are attractive…) to be successful with women, as long as you look neat, groomed and healthy you should be fine. Unfortunately, this is not the case for most of the involuntarily celibate… Additionally most of them don’t have an attractive personality.
● Why do all the online dating statistics prove conclusively that looks are almost everything? It is simply because looks matter.
According to the authors theory about look, the average white men must look so much better than black, Latino and Asian men, because white men are more successful with women. But this is wrong, they don’t looks better.
Looks matter, but race does matter more.
Why does traditionally masculinity work so well?
● Why are non-alternative (traditionally masculine) men so successful relative to many Asian men across every social arena with the exception of some East Asian societies? It is because some Asian men are convinced that traditional masculinity is “owned” by the west and are determined to reflect that belief through how they style themselves. But unfortunately, such a style, often, is unattractive to women.
Asian men are not convinced, that traditional masculinity is “owned” by the west. Asian men in Asia just have different beauty standards.
Younger men prefer the flower boy look, older men prefer the masculine look. Asia is the perfect example that both looks can coexist at the same time.
● Why are non-alternative (traditionally masculine) men even more successful with Asian women than many Asian men are? While it can be acknowledged that western media also plays a role in Asian women’s perception of Asian men, the belief that traditional masculinity is “owned” by the west does not help at all to alleviate the issue. If anything, it further reinforces western media’s stereotypes of Asian men; stereotypes that are unattractive to women.
Western media is the biggest role in Asian women’s perception of Asian men.
Why are ultra low status men not suffering like higher status East Asian men?
● Huge parts of the Middle East are dominated by western imperialists. They are powerless against white male invaders. Yet, Arabic women are not fawning for white men. Meanwhile, poor, often penniless, Middle Eastern male refugees do not struggle in attracting white women. If power was “everything” then these war torn refugees should not be achieving mating success, yet, they are. Simultaneously, numerous highly educated Asian men struggle with dating. This further proves that clinging onto the beliefs that power is “everything” or that women are attracted to effeminate dress styles is erroneous.
There is a big confusion between having real power, status etc. Having power can work both way, one can be loved/respected or hated. For Middle Eastern countries it’s definitely the latter.
Middle Eastern male refugees do not struggle attracting white women?Reference? I don’t think so, but assuming Middle Eastern male refugees are desired by white women, they still don’t look very tall and muscular and therefore not typical “masculine” to me…
● Conversely, China is the second most powerful nation on earth, only surpassed by the USA. Yet low status white men from third rate European countries have an easy time getting sex across Asia despite being relegated to powerless and low status ESL “teacher” jobs. This further shows that power and status is not “everything”.
1.) USA is still the most powerful nation on earth (at least in the minds of the majority). China might be the second most powerful nation regarding military power and economic, but China is still regarded as an emerging country by the west. Since the west’s opinion is treated as the default, Asian women associate white people with more status (This is however slowly changing)
By the way. The authors are contradicting themselves. First they say look does matter. Then they say low status ESl teacher are successful with Asian women. However, are low status ESL good looking? If yes, why are they low status and have to go Asia to have success with woman?
On other words ESL teacher are so successful in Asian countries because they do have status (even though it’s not deserved)
Why did you cut your face to look more feminine?
What is a masculine face? A broad square jaw, narrow eyes, a somewhat wide nose. These are traits that Asian men are naturally gifted with. Why are many Asian men surgically removing these attractive features? Could it have something to do with westerners imposing their beauty ideals onto Asians through war?
● Enlarging narrow manly eyes to look feminine.
● Perming hair like a woman.
● Shaving the jawShaving the jaws only serve to look more feminine. This surgery is particularly bizarre. Below are two jaw surgeries. One for a man. One for a woman. Why are they both going for the same slim jaw? The woman pursuing this aesthetic is understandable. The man pursuing this aesthetic makes no sense.
The majority of Asian men don’t saw their jaws. Asians are natural gifted with wide broad jaws? Reference?
Either way, let’s have a look at the average faces
https://leadingpersonality.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/average_faces_01.jpg
Actually I don’t see that much of a difference between Asians and Western Jaws… Still western men are doing much better in attracting women, which means the Jaw isn’t that relevant for attracting women.
Debunking General Counter Arguments
● Kpop has increased Asian male’s popularity.
That is true, but relative to what? Remember, our men’s mainstream image was the worst of the worst: “nerds”, “virgins”, “weirdos”, “ugly”, “scrawny”, “girly”, “manlets”, “incels”, “small penis”, etc…
What you should be asking is: is this the best representation? Clearly it is not. We can know this through common sense. If Kpop were the ultimate sexual ideal with universal appeal then white men would have copied it and replaced their existing western boy band styles. They have not copied Kpop styles. They have not replaced their existing western boy band style. Why? Obviously because it is not the most appealing style possible. What you see is an improvement over “horrible”. We are at “not horrible”. Meanwhile, Western boy bands are at “highly desirable”.
Wrong conclusion. If Kpop were the ultimate sexual ideal with universal appeal, white men would have bashed, trash talked and dismissed Kpop (which is happening now by the way).
Western boy bands are not as desired as BTS. BTS is doing much better than Western boy bands now, just look at the current music charts around the world.
If “traditional masculine” looking Asian men, who have existed a long time already according to the authors article, is the best representation, why are Asians still undesired? Obviously because western media can
Let’s take Hollywood as an example.
Do you see the difference now? Kpop is better than nothing, but it’s not the best.
● Western boy bands are girly too.
Western boy bands in 2017:
Eastern (mostly South Korean) boy bands in 2017:
Especially pay attention to these:
To even the untrained eye, the eastern boy bands are extremely feminine in their looks and behavior. They pose, smile and hug each other in a manner that even western women do not. That is in addition to the copious make up, hair coloring, and clothing that they wear. There is simply no comparison.
Meanwhile, not a single one of the Asian girl bands embrace “alternative femininity”:
But wait. There’s more!
Many Eastern boy bands are more effeminate in behavior than Eastern (and even non-Eastern) girl bands.
Eastern boy band needs to be more masculine like this group:
Psych! That’s Acrush, a boy band from China comprised of ALL FEMALE MEMBERS who pretend to be male. Yes, they are ALL female. You could not even tell until the truth was revealed. Additionally, none of those girl bands embraced “alternative femininity”.
This is just cherry picking photos to support the authors’ agenda.
Another contradiction: The authors claim that not a single girl group is embracing “alternative femininity”. Clearly Acrush is embracing “alternative feminity”. However, what is even “alternative feminity”? and what is “alternative masculinity”?
● David Bowie, glam metal, Kiss, and Boy George were extremely girly looking.
First, there was a wide spectrum of Western male entertainers ranging from masculine to feminine. This is vastly different from the East Asian pop music industry, which is almost dominated by effeminate and/or androgynous male entertainers. The proportions are completely different. They are not comparable.
Second, celebrities can get away with far more than regular civilians. How many men went to clubs wearing wigs and David Bowie costumes and succeeded with women? The average individual cannot dress like David Bowie and be expected to pull attractive women.
I wouldn’t argue, that the west have girly looking artists. But just want to say that there is also a wide spectrum of Asian mal entertainers.
● I see tall and built Asian men at the gym. They don’t get girls.
This happens to white men too. Does that suddenly mean being physically attractive is useless? No.
- Height and built doesn’t equal to attractiveness…
- It will happen much more to Asian men than to white men…
- Straw man argument. Opposition doesn’t claim that height and built is useless, but rather that race is more important.
● Women’s sex fantasies involve men in positions of power!
However, these men are often traditionally masculine, attractive and young to middle aged. The fact remains that women normally don’t fantasize about elderly business magnates and political titans despite the fact that most powerful men are usually older since it takes time to build up their power.
Typical straw man argument. Where is the connection to BTS or KPop?
Kpop Idols are not in positions of power…
Women don’t fantasize about elderly men, but teenage girls do fantasize about idols.
● Women want power. Look at me. I’m average looking and I beat my friend who is super hot and tall. I run my frat that was full of thugs.
That’s a strategy that only the top men (top as in men with average looks but wield high power and status) can use. Keep in mind that it’s a confluence of variables such as looks, money, power, status, etc…What happens for the vast majority of the population? Same thing with powerful CEOS, heads of power networks, etc…Elite power does not simply get absorbed by the regular masses through osmosis. If that were the case, there would be no growing mass of white male incels.
Another straw man argument. No sane Asian would argue that power is everything…
However, this statement is correct. Attraction is a confluence of look, money, power and also race.
● Looks don’t matter.
Yes they do. See everything above, again.
Look are highly subjective. Race is obviously more important than race (see above)
● Women want status.
Do a thought experiment. Imagine China becomes the world’s most powerful country tomorrow. Chinese men have the most status but all of them look like Ken Jeong. Will highly attractive white and/or non-Asian men lose to these Ken Jeongs? Obviously not.
If it’s all about power then why is western media so committed to only showing Asian men with less than average looks like Ken Jeong, Psy, and Matthew Moy? That is because looks matter a lot.
Again? Where is the data to back up your statement?
If Asian would be the ideal beauty standard, non-Asians who look average will definitely loose to a Ken Jeong.
Conversely, where’s the harm in showing attractive and heroic masculine men if power is the only thing that matters?
Furthermore, Japanese Americans had no power in America. Yet, whites took down Sessue Hayakawa, Hollywood’s first sex symbol. That, alone, illustrates the importance of looks.
All in all the authors have shown, that Asian male beauty standard (flower boy) is different from Western male beauty standard, which no one denies. The authors have shown, that status is not everything, and that look also matters, which again no one denies. However, status is strongly connected to race. There are many dating experiments, where very good looking and “masculine” Asian male were not as successful as less good looking and masculine white men (s. Kreider)
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/asian-men-dating_us_5b0ed83de4b0568a8810e2d0?guccounter=1
While the authors don’t think that the Asian male beauty standard is attractive, it is attractive to most people in Asia. But Asians are not limited to only one beauty standard. As mentioned in the article, older manly actors are still desired by Asia. Those two beauty standards are not mutual exclusive. In this case, we can say that Asians are more open-minded towards different beauty standards.
Coming back to K-Pop:
In my opinion, in order to effectively fight the negative stereotypes about Asian men, we have to target younger people, because prejudices and preferences are developed in younger age.
BTS is doing so well, because younger people are also attracted to younger people. Younger people can identify with younger people.
Note that mostly older people are hating on BTS.
A boy band consisting of manly middle aged wouldn’t do well with younger people. Older people would be more likely to like this band, however
it is extremely difficulty to change the preferences/prejudices of adults.
Therefore Kpop is a good representation.
The overall of Asians should be make people accept/respect their beauty standards. And not
What’s your opinion about Shadowsweep and Natalie Ng’s Article?
If you see any mistakes, please let me know and write it in the comments!