Ridiculous debate
This is a heavily edited debate I was involved with on a political forum. The names have been changed — except for mine. Some of this is word-for-word but most of it has been edited for readability and clarity. I tried my best to capture the original intent of our statements.
Sam made the original post.
Sam’s post
I believe that Hillary Clinton is the only sane option for president! Who agrees? Let’s do this!
See: Let me remind you fuckers who I am
Louie responded
Sam, I noticed your name. Are you Islamic? That’s the only reason you’d support Hilary. You’re just trying to keep your Muslim brotherhood in the White House.
Is it possible to be a kind, loving person and follow Islamic teachings?
Grady
Louie, this is hate speech. There are lots of reasons to support Hillary (I like her views on healthcare and education). And it’s ok to be a Muslim. I think the Muslim Brotherhood is a political party in Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
Louie
Oh, no. It’s not hate speech. It’s the truth! I understand your book allows you to lie. It’s ok.
Just so we understand each other: the Muslim brotherhood is in the White House. Although, they’re soon to be kicked out.
Grady
Right. Your understanding is not a typical understanding. Very few people believe that an Egyptian organization is “in the White House.”
Actually, I don’t think that Obama is particularly religious at all. If you look at the issues facing our world and only see religious division you are filtering out some very important information.
When you want to criticize a “bad person” who is also a religious person… try to separate that person’s bad behavior from their religion. Using someone’s religious affiliation to condemn them is hate speech.
It’s important to remember that most religions — including Islam — generally teach love and kindness to others.
You can usually criticize someone for not being loving or kind and they’ll hear you more clearly. People aren’t usually as willing to hear religious criticism. When you attack someone on religious grounds you only succeed in spreading bigotry.
You’d be more convincing if you addressed their words, not their heritage.
The simple rule is this: If I were to say something that made you think I hated you, that would be hate speech.
Louie
No, I stand by my statement.
Do you practice what the Quran teaches? Are you a practicing Muslim? If so, is it possible to be a kind, loving person and follow Islamic teachings?
Grady
- More about the Muslim Brotherhood in the White House.
It’s curious why you care if I’m a Muslim. I don’t think it’s relevant. You can stand by your statement but you should know that even Christians can believe that Muslims are good people.
I think you should focus your attention on the separation of religion from government.
Our founding fathers came to America as religious refugees. The First Amendment gives all Americans freedom of speech; and freedom from religion.
How bad would it be if a Muslim were elected president and they were allowed to declare an official religion?
There is a reason that the First Amendment to the Constitution establishes a separation between church and state.
I consider myself to be very wise. Whereas you are just sheeple.
Bruce
Louie, I don’t dare stoop to your level but I couldn’t help but notice: your name is German. One might question if you’re a Neo-Nazi. Are you supporting Donald Trump because he’s a fascist? You would be wise to think before you speak.
Louie
Bruce, your argument is typical.
What’s the matter? Can’t handle the truth? Or is it because you are so politically correct?
I consider myself to be very wise. Whereas you are just sheeple.
But I will refrain from trying to guess your heritage. It’s obvious to me: you’ve been brainwashed by PC rhetoric. I am not German either, lol.
I think you’re afraid of the real questions. These issues might change the way a person votes!
Grady
Bruce, you stooped to Louie’s level and got owned :)
Louie, what is the truth? It’s fine to reject political correctness. However, you should know that some politically incorrect statements are are also hate speech.
This is not a matter of being PC.
I think it’s safe to say that you are severely overstating the Muslim Brotherhood’s influence over our national politics. Most people would say that they have absolutely no influence at all. You don’t need to look any further than Obama’s support of gay rights to see that he’s not very well aligned with conservative Muslim ideology. Also, President Obama killed Osama Bin Laden.
Trying to have a conversation with you is research.
Bruce
You guys think Sam is a Muslim? I can tell you that he’s not. Carry on with your ignorance. I know, I’m such a sheeple. Clearly, I am too afraid of the tough questions. Jesus.
Profiling people by name is hardly the right type of question. This “truth” you speak of is just flat out wrong.
Louie
Still not answering my questions.
And Bruce, you are “flat out wrong.” That’s where you show your true colors. And please, you wouldn’t know the first thing about Jesus. If we can’t ask questions then you must be a true progressive socialist!
Bruce
Wow, Louie, you’re so inquisitive. What questions are you asking me? Are you referring to Sam? If you’d read my message you’d know that Sam is not a Muslim. I’m not afraid of questions.
That’s pretty weak; how is suggesting you might be a Neo-Nazi, “typical?” I was just mirroring your so-called “wise question.” I feel like you’re a little too defensive on this one.
Are you a hateful person? I’m just trying to figure out what compels a typical Trump voter.
And Grady, why do you think that I got owned? Do you think this guy is wise? Am I just some brainwashed sheeple? :)
Louie
I am really glad you asked about Trump. Why don’t you grow up and do the research for yourself. You won’t like it. The truth offends you.
Congratulations, Bruce! You just earned a seat in the sniveling little bitches club. Do you set the rules for the debate? I think not.
Bruce
Excuse me? I am trying to have an honest conversation with you. You resort to name calling!
Whatever. I’ll go research this stuff on my own. As if trying to have a conversation with you wasn’t research.
Maybe you’re the one that needs to grow up.
Louie
Here is a little crumb: Hilary and friends accepted money from Russia. That’s straight from the New York Times.
http://www.yesimright.com/cia-official-broke-rank-and-leaked-obamas-islamic-plan-to-destroy-america/
Bruce
It sounds like you’re buying into a paranoid conspiracy theory. Is it politically correct to call you a paranoid conspiracy theorist?
Why are you only trusting news from fringe websites like yesimright.com? Is your brain incapable of considering other viewpoints?
I agree with you that we need freedom of religion. I just don’t accept any religion that seeks to overthrow our government.
Louie
Responding to Grady: America was founded on Christian beliefs. God is mentioned in our Constitution as well as on our currency. Our laws were founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
I agree with you that we need freedom of religion. I just don’t accept any religion that seeks to overthrow our government.
Nate
Hi, Louie. I took the liberty of searching the Constitution for words like “God” and “Christian.” Nothing showed up.
Then I searched for mentions of “religion.” It only showed up in two places.
One is the First Amendment and the other is Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution. The No Religious Test Clause states that our elected officials, “shall be bound to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required under the United States.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Religious_Test_Clause
Louie
Nate, the Declaration of Independence has five references to God. The founding fathers also openly wrote about Christian principles many times.
Check out these examples: http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755
Responding with an insult is, actually, pretty typical.… I would prefer to show some self-confidence and not take the bait.
Grady
Bruce, you asked why I think you got “owned.”
I said that because Louie is clearly of the mind that anyone who disagrees with him is a Muslim. It’s not worth dignifying that with a rebuttal.
When you decided to turn the tables and accuse him of being a Neo-Nazi you were playing right into his hands. Taking the bait and responding with an insult is, actually, pretty typical. You fell for it. You got owned.
When Louie accused me of being a Muslim I didn’t respond either way. If I were to deny I were a Muslim I might accidentally signal that I thought being a Muslim was bad. I chose to engage Louie with ideas. I wanted to show Louie that I was not interested in denigrating anyone for holding different beliefs. You chose to accidentally equate suspected Muslims with suspected Neo-Nazis.
Sorry if you misunderstood. I was saying that you were wasting your breath by trading insults with Louie.
Bruce
I absolutely agree with your points here. I wasn’t trying to call Louie a Neo-Nazi. I was trying to highlight the ridiculousness of his original statement. You’re ultimately right that I was wasting my breath. I’m trying to open up people’s minds a little bit; not trying to start fights.
I’m also not going to let someone spread hate speech. So, you can think that I got “owned” but I don’t see it that way. You have your tactics and I have mine. I am going to continue to speak my mind.
Louie, you seem to be the one following the herd.
Louie
Bruce, you had your debate. Call me whatever you like. Crybaby! lol.
You should look up The American’s Creed: http://www.usflag.org/american.creed.html
Grady
Louie, to be clear: I’m going to vote for Hillary.
Even if you believe that Obama is a weak president, our military is still the strongest on Earth. If a few people from the Middle East want to try to scare us with some terrorism… I would prefer to show some self-confidence and not take the bait.
By taking the typical approach and responding harshly to terrorists we are playing into their hands. They say we hate them. We prove that we do. That only helps justify their attacks. Killing innocent people is never justified.
We should feel comfortable proving that we’re innocent.
People like Ted Cruz want to bomb ISIS so hard that the sand would glow green at night. I have full confidence that we could do that if we felt like it. America is a killing machine when it wants to be. We killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
ISIS wishes that they were this good at striking fear into the hearts of their enemies.
I choose not to be afraid. I choose to believe in America. And I think we can win without stooping to their level. Fear is an emotion for weak people. The terrorists have nothing on us.
Someone has to be the adult and show the kids what true strength looks like. I think Hillary is just the woman for the job. Trump seems scared.
ISIS is definitely a problem, but it’s more of a political organization than a religious one.
Louie
Nate, I agree. I don’t want to see religious tests. However, it’s important to me that this nation was founded on Christian principles, not Muslim ideology.
Nate
Louie, Christian teachings definitely inspired our founding fathers. All of them grew up in a Christian society. But they specifically left Christianity out of the Constitution for a reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
The founding fathers were well aware of the downsides of writing religion into the law. They wanted to make certain that no belief system was unjustly favored.
I agree with you that there should be some exceptions with regards to dangerous religions. There are some hyper-extreme cults that bear special consideration. But the majority of Islam in America is not extreme by any measure.
ISIS is definitely a problem, but it’s more of a political organization than a religious one.
Religion and politics in the Middle East have been intertwined for far too long. Europe actually learned that lesson during the religious wars of the Protestant Reformation. Europe was once governed by the church. Today, it’s the Middle East that is struggling with the unholy marriage of church and state. This combination is what empowers groups like ISIS.
Blaming Islam for ISIS is like blaming Christianity for Martin Luther’s Radicals. There’s more going on here than religious differences.
It’s important to note that somewhere in that ridiculous joke is the notion of ridicule.
Grady
Bruce, being ridiculous is not helpful. It hides your true feelings. You don’t have to take every insult at face value. It’s better to make arguments that help your point rather than derailing the conversation. When you notice that someone is being defensive you misplay your hand by attacking — they already have their defenses up.
No one will ever agree with someone who makes fun of them. If your goal is to win hearts and minds, start with some empathy. If you’re so smart, you should know better than to pick fights when you’re trying to make friends.
Louie
Ok, Nate. Let me ask you this: do you uphold the ideals of your book, the Quran? Do you support Sharia law?
Bruce
Grady, you’ve got me a bit more convinced now.
I’ll be sure to keep this in mind going forward. I’m actually pretty new to internet debates like this. I used to be pretty shy; I’m just trying to learn — which is a big reason I’m here.
Grady
Thanks, Bruce. You seem cool. Not trying to harsh on you too much.
Just remember, the best teachers help their students.
I think a lot of us come from an older school of thought that relies more on discipline. Something like, “spare the the rod, spoil the child.” As much as you genuinely believe that beating kids is helping them, I guess that idea holds water.
But we’re learning as a society — look at how TV families have evolved from The Honeymooners to Modern Family — that being a bully isn’t the only way to love someone. I know that my family struggled with that when I was a kid. I wasn’t taught all of life’s lessons by an empathetic hand.
Sometimes it seems normal to lightly tease someone to get a point across. That impulse can feel impossible to ignore. I’ve always found logical inconsistencies to be delightfully ridiculous. My best friends enjoy it when I give them a good poke in the ribs. There’s a time and a place for that kind of thing, especially when they’ve just said something stupid. Joking can be a fun way of keeping people honest, especially when everyone gets a good laugh. But it’s important to note that somewhere in that ridiculous joke is the notion of ridicule.
That’s not always the best way to help someone.
I know that when my parents used jokes to help me reason through something it didn’t always feel like kindness. I remember as a teenager that it made me feel resentful. It certainly didn’t make me feel like listening to anything they had to say.
I try to remind myself: I didn’t wake up this morning wanting to make someone else feel bad about themselves.
Louie
Question answered by not answering. Both of you. Thank you.
Nate
Sorry at work.
Grady
Louie, no one here cares to talk about the Quran. It literally has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton. Or, maybe we’re blind to the relevance. Regardless, we fail to care.
Here’s a video worth watching: Obama singing Amazing Grace
