Hey John thanks for the response. I understand what you’re saying, but I’d like to argue some of the points you bring up.
# God’s Justice
Firstly, saying that God’s law is a “higher law” requires some supporting evidence. Why is God’s law better? Have we voted on this? Maybe God’s law is worse. What evidence is there that his laws are better? And if they are so much better, or “higher”, then why have they changed from OT to NT? Were they higher but not high enough? Did God think of a better way later on, making the old laws not really the best? I don’t want to go too far into this, just enough to say that claiming ones laws are better does not in fact make them better. Supporting evidence is required.
I agree with you that shedding innocent blood is murder. But by whose standard are we judging, and is that standard without error and is it moral?
Quick side note: “Because God said so” or “because the bible says so” are not valid answers. “I don’t know” is a far more appropriate answer, and usually a more honest one in place of the first two.
I’ll try to focus on only the innocent being murdered and/or punished:
- God’s most righteous man, Lot, representing God’s favor, allows a group of men to rape his two daughters. This is the man God saves?
- Lot’s wife, presumably innocent, turned to look back on the city and gets turned to salt. Why? What was the evil/sin in looking?
- God’s idea of testing someone is manipulative and sick: Abraham is told to murder his son, an innocent boy. Yet, it is commanded that “thou shall not murder.” This is a lose-lose test.
— Option 1: Obey God, murder a boy, break a commandment.
— Option 2: Disobey God, spare an innocent boy, keep God’s commandment.
What exactly was the test here and what exactly was the right thing to do? And when the angel stops Abraham are we supposed to be grateful? If it were me, I’d be like “WTF? What the hell is going on here? Are you serious?” God the bully.
- Judges 11: Jephthah makes a deal with God, and the fulfillment of that deal requires Jephthah to murder his only daughter by burning her at the stake. Only this time, God didn’t decide it was worth stepping in and allowed the murder. What was the girls crime?
- Exodus 32: God delegates to Moses to have the tribe of Levi slaughter 3,000 people then God sends a plague onto them. Why? because they made a golden calf to worship. God was jealous, which according to Paul is a trait born of sin (Galatians 5:19–21). Either way, can you imagine a guy murdering his ex girlfriend for cheating on him? Is murder really the right response? God seems to use join-me-or-die tactics.
- Numbers 25: Again God’s jealousy gets out of hand, he has Moses decapitate a bunch of people and hang their heads facing the sun for all to see as a warning. This is God’s justice? Sounds more like a terrorist.
- Ethnic cleansing, massacres, and total annihilation; Joshua 6:21. God commands his people to destroy a city and murder the women and children too. Innocent children. Numbers 20:16–17, God tells them not to leave anything alive that breaths. I’m assuming that includes children. Also he specifically names other races/ethnicities that he wants wiped out.
- God punishes by death:
— Leviticus 20; God’s commandments require punishment by death for the following: cursing your parents, committing adultery, making love with stepmother or daughter‐in‐law, homosexuality, marrying a woman and her daughter, bestiality, or working on the sabbath.
— Numbers 15: a man was gathering firewood on the sabbath, the people took him and asked God what they should do, God told them to put him to death.
So there are a few examples of innocent people being murdered, raped, and punished who seem pretty innocent to me. At least in regards to the specific circumstances they were in.
You may at this point want to bring up that all are born into sin. If that’s true, then God not just. Because there is no justice in the murder, judgement, and eternal damnation in hell of a child. His ways are not higher than my ways. I would not send a child to hell or even allow children to be born into something they had nothing to do with.
### The Law of God
God’s law is make believe. In that I mean, God himself just made it up, then imposed it upon us. Let me illustrate this point;
There is nothing immoral about taking a piss. Nothing immoral about taking a piss outside. But if you take a piss outside and cop sees you you’re gonna get slapped with a urinating in public citation.
There’s nothing immoral about taking a piss. And there’s nothing immoral about many of the commandments scattered about the bible. There’s nothing immoral about choosing to worship different gods, or no gods at all. Yet God punishes the freewill of man with plages, genocide, or eternity in hell.
It is my belief, that if God does exist, he is a horrid, tyrannical, immoral, evil god.
You said “we are mostly all fortunate that we are not living under Old Testament Law.” Yes, very fortunate indeed, that we weren’t alive when God was running around like a maniac slaughtering women and children, old people, annihilating cities, casting plagues, and raping young girls.
But God today is the same God as back then and always will be, yes? Therefore why are we not holding him accountable for these atrocities? If a man commits murder and gets away with it, but 50 years later evidence turns up linking him to the murder, do we all just shrug out shoulders and say “Bah, that was a long time ago, he’s different now.” Hell no, we drag that man to prison, set him up with a trial, where he will face life in jail or death.
Why does God get a pass? Because he “works in mysterious ways?” Because “his ways are greater than our ways?” Because “all things work to the good for those who trust in him?” Those are all meaningless, empty words. There is nothing mysterious about the ways God works, they’re evil. There’s nothing greater about God’s ways, they’re immoral. I see no evidence, cause, or benefit in trusting in a God whose characteristics resemble more of a terrorist than that of a loving father.
### Age of grace
Age of grace? Ok, so many things to bring up here…
1. Why did we change to an age of grace? Did God get tired?
2. Why did God plan out two ages? OT law, NT grace? Why not just start right off with whichever is the better system? Why is he fucking around with humanity like this?
3. Grace? Grace from WHAT? Grace from God’s own laws! It would have been graceful to not have imposed the laws in the first place!
4. But wait, it’s an age of grace now, oh but you just wait until you die then God will have his way with you.
### Accepting Jesus as Savior
Two major points to make here:
So my entire eternal infinite life after death, my ultimate residence in the world after, the greatest most important thing in the universe rests entirely on… my little human brain simply believing? My immortal eternal soul hinges on whether or not I believe the right thing? My salvation is determined simply by using the proper objective pronoun in reference to God, making sure I call him by the right name and not mistaking him for Allah or some other name for God? REALLY? That’s it?
This is absolute insanity.
Second point to make. For a brief moment use your imagination. Imagine that you are God and you have just finished creating Earth. Now you’ve created mankind in your image and helped them populate the planet. Finally judgement day comes, you sit on the throne, and it is entirely up to you who goes to heaven and hell. Now, personally, I could imagine myself sending some people to hell like rapists, serial killers, suicide bombers, cult and terrorist leaders. But I could not, and now I’m asking you if you could, send to a place of eternal torment and agony normal average people who just never saw enough evidence to believe that you existed. Or people who prayed to see signs of you existence but were not answered. Or people who grew up in isolated places unreached by evangelists or scriptures. Or children who died to young to understand. How about the mentally handicapped who may not comprehend enough to sufficiently “believe” in you? Or stillborn babies? Would YOU whomever is reading this RIGHT NOW send any of those normal people to hell? And if you answered YES than I demand to hear why!
As with God, for him to send so many people to hell for not believing, I demand an explanation WHY! Because I cannot imagine any reason under any circumstances that that would be morally right, justified, or praiseworthy.
Finally, what about those who do believe, have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then lived a life raping, murdering, and stealing. Apparently, according to God’s law THAT person gets to enter heaven, while the children too young to know better get cast into the lake of fire according to GODS MOTHER FUCKING GRACE!
Sorry I’m straight up losing it now. That’s about as objective as I’m going to be able to be tonight. These topics get me heated up.
I thank you for responding and being clear on the points you made. And I do apologize for the few moments I see as I reread this reply where I start to lose my focus and lean off into rant mode.
I hope if you choose to respond you’ll keep it rational and debate fairly and logically.
P.S. about to submit a new post on here with a lot more content, lookout for it.