WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A NARCISSIST AND A SOCIO/PSYCHOPATH (AKA DSM 5 Anti-Social Personality Disorder with psychopathy: meaning a pattern of sadistic criminality [ASPDp])? Don’t both seek adoration and attention? Is one necessarily exclusive to the other?
Ok, last question first: Yes, and here’s why: while narcissistic like features/symptom (traits) present in individuals who meet criteria for ASPD with psychopathy, these behaviors are AN ASPECT OF THE PRIMARY DIAGNOSIS and do not meet criteria for a SECOND DIAGNOSIS OF NPD. Why; because although behaviors that MIMIC what APPEARS to be narcissism present in Psychopaths (just as arrogance "MIMICS" but IS NOT, self-confidence) those self involved self aggrandizing traits are not driven by the wounds considered causal for the existence of Narcissism. On the other hand although narcissists display similar behaviors, those behaviors act as a shield against a deeply wounded internal sense of self; a wound that typically occurs within the first few years of life (see below for what drives narcissists versus psychopaths).
However the "narcissistic traits” displayed in psychopaths are related to the psychopath’s estimation of the power they hold to destroy at any given moment, purely for the sadistic pleasure of it. The psychopath gains validation of his power via the very act of destruction itself which is by nature a self centered endeavor. Equally he can’t resist “crowing” about that destruction. How else is he to convey his power to destroy and instill fear in others without boasting about it whereas the narcissist seeks out power as a means to maintain his/her “reactively formed” delusion of superiority which keeps him/her from being swallowed up by the jaws of depressive despair running just beneath the facade of narcissistic grandiosity allowing him to flee from the pain associated with his/her deeply wounded self. The drive that produces Narcissistic Personality Disorder [NPD] is born of the reaction to overwhelming levels of internal pain and despair whereas the psychopath who may equally display those same self involved traits, knows no such internal pain and despair thus their self aggrandizement is ultimately connected to and driven by the anticipation of sadistic glee!
Many mental health disorders present at a surface level with symptoms that if not carefully parsed for causality appear to overlap such that those symptom clusters meet diagnostic criteria for two or more disorders (as is the case with ASPDp and NPD), however if you do your diagnostic analysis correctly you will find exclusionary symptoms, meaning, if/when the entire constellation of symptoms appear to meet for two or more disorders (and not just some), THE MORE SEVERE DISORDER TAKES PRECEDENT because that is what fits (i.e., in this case while all the symptoms for NPD may be present, the addition of a history of criminality and sadistic predation etc. calls for a diagnosis of ASPDp which rules out the individuals narcissistic traits as having arisen from a profoundly wounded sense of self).
This is no different that going to a doctor when you have a fever who, based on those symptoms diagnoses you with a cold, gives you Tylenol and sends you home. However …. when two weeks later you return with the same fever, he orders up some labs and lo and behold what initially appeared as a cold was actually a lymphatic disease.
So, did you have a cold? Although your symptoms clearly presented like the common cold, because the underlying "cause" or etiology of your fever was identified as a lymphatic disease, clearly you did not then, and do not now have a cold.
Additionally, although Narcissists appear to lack empathy (because they are acutely involved in the perpetuation of their own delusional superiority), this is not the case, it’s just that whatever empathy they do have, is NOT AVAILABLE FOR USE OR GUIDANCE when considering the impact of their behavior on others. This is because narcissists fight to stay in the delusion of their own superiority to prevent from drowning in the profound state of depression that constantly threatens to engulf them should it collapy versus the psychopath WHO IS WHOLLY INCAPABLE OF EMPATHY and has no need to steer clear of a depressive despair he doesn’t feel.
Another tell: Although they may not display much of a capacity for such, narcissists do have a conscience. However given their drive to maintain their superiority, that conscience is often usurped by their need to protect themselves from the underlying crippling self doubt and inadequacy that subjects them to extreme anxiety and depression which they cover via belligerent behavioral demands that you pay homage to their inflated sense of self importance (i.e., delusional superiority). Narcissits can not hold the space superiority without validation from those around them, thus they go about extracting such validation throughout the day via manipulation, making up or embellishing stories (tall tales) lying about and or putting others down to lift themselves up and or outlandish demands for adoration; again this is all to keep the narcissist from falling into the pit of despair versus psychopaths who, as research finds, have no anxiety and are fearless in their pursuit of self aggrandizement and power. Ultimately the power psychopaths seek is that which gives them the freedom to enjoy their sadistic pursuits without interference. This is not what drives the narcissist.
To answer the remaining questions: “What is the difference between a narcissist and a socio/psychopath? Don’t both seek adoration and attention?” the answer is yes, but again it is WHAT DRIVES THE BEHAVIOR, not the presentation of the behavior itself that finds for the diagnostic distinction (e.g., take the case of two men who constantly steal food, and another three men who constantly steal drugs from the pharmacy. Are all five petty criminals or addicts? Yes no and maybe not. Here’s how this plays out: although all steal, one steals food because he is hungry and unable to work has no money, the other isn’t hungry, had money but steals food “for the fun of it" because he feels a sense of “cruel power” (i.e., PLEASURE) in getting over on/taking indiscriminately from others (a psychopath). In the case of the three men who steal from the pharmacy one steals only the $10,000 drugs needed to treat his uninsured sister who has cancer, the second an addict steals whatever he first sees to feed his habit or whatever hot market drug he can grab to exchange for his street drugs and the third enjoys the thieving/getting over on folks and takes whatever he can leaving enough of a trail to implicate the pharmacist for the crime (a psychopath). Only one of these thieves is an addict, two of these men are socio/psychopaths, and the last two thieves are individuals caught up in terrible circumstances WITH NO WAY OUT.
While legally all five are equally charged with theft, THE COURTS ARE SUPPOSED TO make a judgment based on mitigating “causal” factors, as to which of these men are actually criminals, which is an addict in need of treatment and/or which were confronted with or pushed by/into circumstances beyond their control trapping them within the confines of inhuman dilemmas with highly limited options. When making such distinctions, the court then has the discretion to remand one to a residential treatment center for the duration of 1 year probation, orders probation for the two who are in desperate need of a social worker to help them access services to lift their burdens and mandates 10 hours a week work service in the grocery store or pharmacy they stole from for the duration of their 1 year probation. As for the last two, if determined both were guilty of willful intent without mitigating causes or need; in other words “stealing for kicks” they’d likely be sentenced to no more than 18 and no less than 12 months after which they’d be eligible for a “good behavior” early release with probation to match time served. (NOTE: While genuine need can be a powerful mitigating factor it is rarely this clean cut. More often “need” is confounded by a variety of complex social, economic and/or psychiatric factors that must be sorted out as well).
For the purposes of this essay, at this point it is crucial to understand that while narcissistic behavior may SYMPTOMATICALLY PRESENT ACROSS BOTH ASPDp & NPD, it is imperative to determine which individual truly meets criteria for NPD and which meets for ASPDw/p. Diagnostically speaking, due diligence requires a deep dive via careful psychodiagnostic clinical interview, testing, observation, and interviews with individuals who know or are closely affiliated with the individual toake such a determination with careful attention to what’s driving the behaviors.
Although you might think (because projection), given the constant I, I, I, ME, ME, ME hype talk, that the psychopath has the same "poor pitiful wounded self" as the narcissist (because of YOUR EMPATHY), you'd be wise to rethink your position here as your more than likely to find yourself DEAD WRONG.
This is because the internal pain that drives the underlying narcissistic schism (a wounded self) as we “normies" understand/experience it, DOES NOT EXIST in (ASPDp) psychopathic individuals, it is for precisely this reason that psychotherapeutic treatment for psychopaths (ASPDp) IS NOT AND CAN NOT be conceptualized under the umbrella of treatment as usual let alone conducted in that manner.
Recall in NPD the individuals sense of self is profoundly wounded, and, in a reactive attempt to escape their unrelenting despair (internal pain), they are driven to a fixed “delusion of superiority” (a schism) which overtime responds well to a more traditional psychotherapeutic approach to treatment versus the psychopathic individual (ASPDp) who simply regards himself as SUPERIOR no cognitive/emotional schism required! Moreover, no matter the circumstances or consequences facing them the psychopath, filled with the absolute certainty of superiority immediately calculates what you want and how badly, designated as the football as he sadisticlly engages in his ritual long cat and mouse chess game where the prize “trophy” proves his superiority as he thwarts your objective intent. This can range from petty wins (demanding to smoke in the non smoking area in exchange for talking) to the extreme (wallowing in the pleasure of causing pain such as leading you on a wild goose chase that yeilds no clue re where the bodies are buried). Many a detective and clinician has unwittingly ended up a “trophy” dangles what you want just out of reach, while drawing emense pleasure via miniscule involuntary signs of pain frustration and rage you give up.
Unlike NPD, psychopaths take trophies. These range from items he took to boasting about seminal “wins” in conversation (see Trump’s repeated rendition of cruelties he’s doled out, whether real, imagined planned or made up for effect, stories recounting all the chaos pain outlandish punishments and ruin he brought down upon those who offended him during Trump MAGA rallys, News conferences all feed back to him via the echo chamber of GOP vfake news propaganda) or thinks about and/or holds his ill-gotten trophy, the psychopath is literally (re-)living in the sadistic pleasures of the pain they have caused and continue to cause by POSSESSING THAT WHICH BELONGS TO ANOTHER, THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE, all while knowing/imagining their possession of “it,” creates pain for thier victims, even today.
Do psychopaths also need someone to know they are smarter, better, superior?
Abso-f_ckin-lutely, because that in itself CAUSES ANGUISH (which they relish) to those they prove are "far inferior to their own predatory minds" (e.g., Psychopaths TAKE/FEED ON THE SADISTIC PLEASURE of not only having hurt, maimed and/or killed people, but additionally, in never disclosing where the bodies are buried specifically BECAUSE it causes PAIN to remaining family members, whom they’ve equally victimized while PROVING THEY ARE SUPERIOR to investigators as they can not be held to account for their crimes via constitutional, governmental or legal processes and procedures).
Conversely, while the narcissist needs you to know they are superior too, and, although they may cause tremendous interpersonal pain, the narcissist ISN’T TRYING TO CAUSE PAIN FOR SADISTIC ENJOYMENT; AND THE PURPOSE OF THE CHAOS THEY CREATE is to publicly re-establish their delusion of superiority as being the hero everyone adores (BTW the person with NPD is wholly dependent upon OTHERS TO SUPPLY THEIR FIX). When narcissists don’t get that kind of adoration, they risk falling into the despair/depression of the wounded self with one caveat; as the narcissist is unable to tolerate despair, this is when he LASHES OUT in “narcissistic rage.” However, the narcissist does NOT lash out to CAUSE PAIN & certainly NOT because he ENJOYS causing PAIN, but rather he lashes out because he is IN PAIN and to protect himself from the depression/deflation that would certainly follow his disillusionment. Equally, he’s both unaware of the hurt he causes others and doesn’t much care how he does it; his only motive being that he is not swallowed up by the despair that awaits him.
Often in quiet moments of self reflection you will hear a narcissist say such things as "I’ve put her through a lot" versus the psychopath who says with pride (when boasting about the control he’s achieved over his victim via sadistic tests AKA “abusive vetting”) "I’ve put her through a lot,” while reviewing in his mind for his own sick pleasure all the emotional, psychological and/or physical torture he has indeed "put her" through (e.g., Hannibal Lecter was a "psychopath," his prison psychiatrist however, was a "narcissist").
Capish?
All good here??
Do we now all understand exactly who Trump and the GOP are?
Ok, moving on...
Fin/