Dissecting Digital Health — with Lesley Holdsworth
We need more allied health professionals in digital health. We need more Lesley Holdsworths! A physiotherapist by training, Lesley has spent the last 20 years opening doors with her strategic, visionary approach to digital health and her strong leadership.
This is the full transcript of the podcast Dissecting Digital Health with Dr Louise Schaper, interview with Dr Lesley Holdsworth, eHealth Clinical Lead for the Scottish Government.
[01:52] Opening Remarks by host Dr Louise Schaper
[02:07] Today’s guest, Lesley Holdsworth, a clinical lead within the Scottish government, introduces herself and her work in e-health and technology. Louise has Lesley elaborate on her background, and Lesley talks about her start in physiotherapy and how her interest in informatics spurned from her desire to improve the system through the need for information on the services she was providing her patients.
[03:30] Lesley relates how she won a computing fellowship which was only available only to doctors, and her drive to open the doors for individuals like herself. Through her example, she proves the power of asking, and taking that first step in changing systems and who they serve. Lesley talks about her move away from clinical work, and towards bigger picture solutions.
[07:55] Louise asks about the fellowship’s role in driving Lesley’s passion to improve healthcare through informatics. Lesley emphasises the need to look to evidence-based information to inform different healthcare delivery models as a first step towards getting out of a cycle of ineffective system delivery. She questions the status quo of doctor’s current position in healthcare as the middleman between a patient and their information.
[11:45] Lesley expresses her belief that being open to opportunity led her down the path her career has taken. Like many professionals in this interdisciplinary field we’ve spoken to, Lesley encourages diversifying pursuits. She shares how informatics was completely absent in her physiotherapy training and the need to include it in curricula.
[14:45] The conversation moves to the vital need to include health informatics knowledge and skills in the training of the healthcare workforce. Lesley points out the lack of any standardised competencies, and reveals an initiative to introduce throughout Scotland national competencies and a national curricula into the university education of all health disciplines.
[19:41] Louise draws back on Lesley’s training as a physiotherapist, and inquires if her move towards work in informatics affected her professional registration. Lesley shares the different steps she needs to take in order to stay registered, and how informatics is not yet recognised as a distinct category. Louise shares her own experience in losing her professional registration, and how HISA hopes to change this for all clinical professionals who working in informatics.
[22:57] Louise asks about other government programs in place in Scotland for clinical informaticians and its recognition as part of job roles. Lesley discusses a national leadership program around e-health and the innovative thinking and peer support it encourages.
[26:48] The two continue their workforce and professionalisation discussion and the similar journey and struggles in the field that are shared globally. Louise applauds the Scottish healthcare system on their advances.
[27:58] Louise concludes by asking Lesley to share career advice she has for clinicians, specifically in allied health. Lesley encourages listeners to find the question they want to answer most in the field as a driver for their work and contribution.
[29:06] Closing Remarks
Opening Remarks by host Dr Louise Schaper
[01:52] Louise: Welcome to this week’s episode of Dissecting Digital Health. I’m your host, Louise Schaper, and today I’m broadcasting from London. I’m not with a Londoner, but I will let my guest introduce herself and tell you who she is. Guest, who are you?
Today’s guest, Lesley Holdsworth, a clinical lead within the Scottish government, introduces herself and her work in e-health and technology. Louise has Lesley elaborate on her background, and Lesley talks about her start in physiotherapy and how her interest in informatics spurned from her desire to improve the system through the need for information on the services she was providing her patients.
[02:07] Lesley: Hello, Louise. My name is Lesley Holdsworth, although an English person by birth, I have lived for the last 35 years in Scotland, so Scotland is my home, despite the fact that I don’t sound very Scottish. So, I’m from Scotland, and my role in Scotland is I’m a clinical lead within the Scottish government with a remit for providing advice and guidance around e-health and technology.
[02:38] Louise: And what was your background, Lesley? Because I know when I first met you, your background was of a lot of interest to me.
[02:45] Lesley: Well, I’m sort of a bit of an eclectic animal, I think. I originally trained as a physiotherapist, and worked as a physiotherapist in clinical settings, in management settings, etcetera, during the 1980s, and very quickly, became interested in how we could make things better, how we could do things differently, and therefore my interest in information came very quickly, because
I very quickly realised that I needed information about the services we were providing, about what patients wanted from our services, and therefore, my passion that I’ve had for information was nourished in that time.
[03:27] Louise: Was that quite soon after you graduated, do you remember?
Lesley relates how she won a computing fellowship which was only available only to doctors, and her drive to open the doors for individuals like herself. Through her example, she proves the power of asking, and taking that first step in changing systems and who they serve. Lesley talks about her move away from clinical work, and towards bigger picture solutions.
[03:30] Lesley: I graduated in 1978, and I would say I first started getting nosy about all of this, probably three to four years after qualifying, and then the more senior I became, so probably by the mid-1980s when I had quite a lot of responsibility for service delivery, then I got even more nosier. The pivotal moment, actually, that — I sort of expressed that nosiness by, in those days, just counting patients, looking at bits of paper, asking questions, etcetera, and trying to collate that in probably what was known as a more traditional research-type framework. I’d done quite a lot of traditional training in traditional research methodologies, etcetera, and held some national fellowships around research, and then suddenly, the pivotal moment, I think, in my life around all of this, was in those days, we had — the government in Scotland was called the Scottish Office, and they gave, every year, what they called was a computing fellowship, but it was only available to doctors, and so I actually — it coincided with the time that my services were chosen, or I volunteered my services to be chosen, as a national lead for the first ever electronic computerised patient management systems, and I actually thought, “I need to learn more about this, and what better way than having one of these fellowships?” So, I’ve never been…
[05:04] Louise: What sort of year are we talking about?
[05:06] Lesley: This was 1985.
[05:08] Louise: Okay.
[05:09] Lesley: So, I have never been really shy at asking questions, because I’m a great believer — people can always say no. So, I went up to Edinburgh and knocked on the door of the Scottish Office and spoke to the right person, and said, “I’m very interested in this, but could you tell me, why is this only available for doctors, because there are many others of us out there who could really benefit from this,” and actually, they couldn’t answer me. So, the next round that came out, they had to make it a general call, so I applied.
I was the only non-medic who applied, and I think because I made such a fuss, they had to give it to me.
[05:47] Louise: [Laughter] I’m sure you were very well-qualified, as well.
[05:49] Lesley: Yeah. But, it was a wonderful opportunity, I think, because it allowed me then to have proper mentorship, proper access to others with knowledge, skills, it allowed me to go visit other places while I was still running my own services and looking at what kind of information needs my services had, and trying to put that in more of a context.
[06:10] Louise: Okay, so you’re working as a physiotherapist, doing clinical work at that time?
[06:15] Lesley: I was doing a little clinical work, a couple of sessions a week, but mainly management. I actually stopped doing clinical work, I think, two, three years later. I tried to hold on — I think if you train as a clinician, I think letting go is really quite hard, but I worked out that after my fellowship, I went on to do another national-related role in helping to develop national data sets, etcetera, for the allied health professions and other community-based staff, and I actually thought I was still very, very interested in this, and I could see the power of it. So, a good example of that is at that time, we had in the UK system the introduction of GP commissioning, and fund-holding within their practices, which was quite a radical model for the UK, but it gave money to GP practices who could purchase services on behalf of their patients, and top of the list was physiotherapy. I found that all the GPs were just coming to me, because I had all of the information, or I could go and sell the services, as it were, to GPs, because I could tell them, and I needed that information to do that, and I don’t know any other services in Scotland that could actually sort of have that conversation on the same level. So, I understood very early the power of information, and
although I have technology like everybody else, the tech is not my bag. It’s an enabler, but to me, the thing that’s driven it has always been what information can we get out of things that can help to drive improvement, and it’s the improvement that I’m really after.
Louise asks about the fellowship’s role in driving Lesley’s passion to improve healthcare through informatics. Lesley emphasises the need to look to evidence-based information to inform different healthcare delivery models as a first step towards getting out of a cycle of ineffective system delivery. She questions the status quo of doctor’s current position in healthcare as the middleman between a patient and their information.
[07:55] Louise: So, do you think you’ve always thought as an informatician, or was it the fellowship that harnessed that desire for knowledge and information and to use it to improve patient care and clinical outcomes?
[08:09] Lesley: Yeah, I think there’s probably a bit of both. I’m a naturally curious person. I’m always…I always think that we could be doing things better, it doesn’t matter in what aspect of life. So, particularly in my professional life, I was always after how could we make things better for these patients. And, we can’t — I think
it was Albert Einstein that sort of said if you keep doing what you always did, you’re never going to get any change.
I’m paraphrasing, but you’ve always got to have an eye for the future and how you can move on.
[08:40] Louise: Well, can we talk a little bit about that? What happened in your fellowship? And, actually, do those fellowships still exist?
[08:47] Lesley: No, they don’t at all, and I think very quickly, in those days, if you can imagine, that was when there were very, very unsophisticated systems. We had these funny floppy disk things, and there was probably an Apple sort of first generation sat in the corner in about two or three offices or places. So, we’re talking really sort of fundamental. I think the big shift now — I mean, if people…that situation would never arise now. We are much more organised, and in Scotland — I know in the UK, but particularly in Scotland where my experience lies is that it took me from that position of having done that fellowship and having that wider exposure, but also into different relationships with different professionals and also in management and some of the other technical professions that we all rely on, to actually think about the wider issues in health. So, I really haven’t worked as a physiotherapist or with a physiotherapy grouping as such, then I probably moved away from that in 1989, and it wasn’t until I came back in 2011 to do a specific piece of work that actually, I really worked closely with that professional grouping, but during that time, in the intervening time, I was heavily interested, and from a research perspective, in how do we widen access to services, and particularly to allied health services for patients.
Why do we need to have the doctor as the middle man, the gate keeper to services? Where is it most appropriate, and where is it really basically overkill? And, we’re not benefitting anybody in terms of patients, first and foremost, systems in terms of costs and all the bureaucracy that goes around that, so is it safe? Is it acceptable? And, is it economical to actually introduce models like that?
So, that would be my interest for many of those years, but that was a hobby. So, my daytime job that I did predominantly from 2000 up to 2011 was I worked for our national organisation in Scotland, and I was the head of research, health services research, and effectiveness, which that body is the equivalent to NICE in England, so my services provided all the advice and guidance for everything in the healthcare services in Scotland at that time.
My journey has been rather interesting from my perspective, but I would describe it as opportunistic, but every aspect of it has being underpinned by the need to have rigorous information.
Lesley expresses her belief that being open to opportunity led her down the path her career has taken. Like many professionals in this interdisciplinary field we’ve spoken to, Lesley encourages diversifying pursuits. She shares how informatics was completely absent in her physiotherapy training and the need to include it in curricula.
[11:45] Louise: It’s interesting that you used the word “opportunistic,” because you can only be opportunistic if you can identify opportunities, and it’s not just identifying them, either. Often, it’s a range of things that you’re doing either consciously or sometimes sub-consciously where those opportunities arise, and so it’s really because of you and what you bring to your role, would you say?
[12:06] Lesley: Yes, I mean I’m very fortunate in that I also contribute to the National Leadership Programme in Scotland, and I’ve had these conversations with many people, the people that I’m mentoring or I’m contributing to, and I’ve learned a lot from them, but I think
one of my key messages is always be open to opportunity, and look for something that you might not think is directly relevant to your professional career progression, but also, you need to be particularly savvy about where the national drivers are, because that’s often where the national resources are, because we all need resources to do what we really want to do to drive it.
So, it’s marrying up and being really open to what’s out there, what can you actually take from that, but in a collaborative way, obviously. So, yes, opportunity and being opportunistic, I think, is a very key requirement.
[13:06] Louise: Yes. I think you’re also being quite humble, actually. Okay, so you’ve been doing this since the ’80s, in terms of physiotherapy and informatics, well, physiotherapy background. I’m occupational therapist trained, and so I’ve been doing this for not quite as long as you, but still quite a while, and it’s still so rare to meet another allied health professional who is an informatics professional as well. So, I have a few questions there. I’m interested in your physiotherapy training, and how do you see that as advantaging you — that initial training in allied health, does it provide you any differences or advantages over other clinical professions who work in health informatics?
[13:51] Lesley: I think when I trained, no. It was completely absent from our curricula, and very interestingly, I think it’s been absent for a long, long time. At the moment in Scotland, we’re actually interested — because my role at the moment is, to work with the range of professions, but also with a focus on allied health, which I love doing, and one of the key things that we’re doing, one of our key planks of work the moment is around workforce, and I think there’s now starting to be a much more universal recognition of the need —
if we’re expecting our workforce to be able to embrace the use of technology, and use it and information and in the informatics field, then we have to prepare them in the right way.
The conversation moves to the vital need to include health informatics knowledge and skills in the training of the healthcare workforce. Lesley points out the lack of any standardised competencies, and reveals an initiative to introduce throughout Scotland national competencies and a national curricula into the university education of all health disciplines.
What we’ve found consistently, we have 22 higher education providers in Scotland, and each of them applied…
[14:53] Louise: Sorry, higher education for clinicians? Across the board?
[14:56] Lesley: For student undergraduate education, plus post-graduate. And, what we found was that it was extremely variable in terms of what they included in their curricula, so we don’t have any standardised or guidance for these institutions to say, “Your students would really benefit from being exposed and involved with this kind of thinking from day one”, and what is it they need? So, we’re in the middle of an initiative to develop core competence and competencies that the HEIs, our education providers, are very much signed up to. So, I envisage that by the end of this year, this will be actually introduced into all the curricula in Scotland, so we can start doing that.
[15:42] Louise: What? Wow! Okay. Sorry, that’s huge. That doesn’t happen anywhere on the planet yet. There are pockets of innovation, where undergraduate clinical curriculums do have informatics as part of them, but they are so rare. So, you’re going to have everyone doing it.
[15:59] Lesley: Yes.
[16:00] Louise: How did you make that happen? Can you give us your highlights so the rest of us can make it so?
[16:06] Lesley: I mean, it hasn’t happened overnight, to be fair, and it’s been an ongoing conversation. Really, started in four years ago, where we deliberately brought all the education providers together with the government e-health leads, and we asked them, “What are your key issues? What are your challenges? How are you preparing your students? What can we do to help?” and it became very obvious from that discussion that they were as much, sort of in a fog, as we possibly thought they were, but that was a recollection that this work was needed, and they were saying they were open-armed and just please work with us to actually create a solution to this. So, that was the start of it, the driver for it, and
it was so important because it was coming from the users, it was not top-down imposed, and it wasn’t us saying, “Well, we have this great idea,” we actually evolved from their needs.
So, creating the forum…
[17:07] Louise: Was the profession calling for it?
[17:09] Lesley: Yes.
[17:10] Louise: Alright, so it wasn’t just the education providers…okay, that’s also unusual.
[17:13] Lesley: Yep. In the UK, we have the allied health professions, we have some of the professions who are really doing some in-depth work as the RCN is as now, which is the Royal College of Nursing, around digital competencies, etcetera, capabilities, but what we said is, “Well, how about we all get together and all sing from the same hymn sheet.” So, we’ve had some…we’ve had a small project team working on that who are based within our national education provider, and the idea is that we will have a central resource where everybody will come to. What has been, I think, another eureka moment with this, we set off there to provide a solution to nursing midwives and allied health need, but actually, this is a need for the whole workforce. It doesn’t matter, including medicine, including the non-qualified, including all the support staff, etcetera, in terms of some of the skills and knowledge is something that everybody needs, and then some of the more refined elements of our framework obviously are more applicable to people in certain roles than others; however,
the foundation and the fundamentals are for everybody — everybody in health and social care needs this.
Our vision is we implement this through our national education provider who has a platform which everybody is registered on anyway, in terms of their under and post-graduate and continued professional development, and they then will have access to all of these resources. So, what we’re aiming for is that staff have whatever knowledge, they’ll have at least a fundamental knowledge, and then they’ll specialise up as much as they can, and some people will be really interested in taking the informatics role further, and some people might not — they might be more interested in the more tech side of things and how that applies to health and social care, but what we’re trying to do is develop a fundamental, core base, with a pick-and-mix sort of on top of that, so the end of the year is our timeline to roll that out to the first 5,000 students who will come into education as from the end of this year.
Louise draws back on Lesley’s training as a physiotherapist, and inquires if her move towards work in informatics affected her professional registration. Lesley shares the different steps she needs to take in order to stay registered, and how informatics is not yet recognised as a distinct category. Louise shares her own experience in losing her professional registration, and how HISA hopes to change this for all clinical professionals who working in informatics.
[19:41] Louise: Okay. Wow. I have to remember that we’re on a podcast, because I have so many more questions, so I won’t go into the detail, but when we stop recording I’ll ask you heaps more, and I know when you come out to Australia later this year, we’ll talk as well, because I know there’s probably a bunch of people I want to introduce you to. We can learn from what you guys are doing. So, if you’ve got that embedded — or, you’re soon going to have that embedded in undergraduate curricula, what about professional registration? So, if you’re a physiotherapist who doesn’t do very much, or if any, pure clinical work anymore, but you’re a health informatics professional, does the physiotherapy profession recognise that, that health informatics role, as being relevant to maintaining your registration as a physiotherapist?
[20:26] Lesley: They don’t make specific reference to that. So, for example, I’ve been able to keep up my professional role, and I’m a fully paid member of both my professional organisations…in the UK,
to be able to practice as a physiotherapist or any other allied health professional, you have to belong to the Healthcare Professions Council, you have to be registered by them, and as part of that then, you are therefore required to also keep a portfolio of evidence about you’re up-to-date and you have the skills, etcetera.
They have different categories, so if you’re like me, not in clinical practice, but you are contributing to the development of your profession in a different way, then what you need to do is select your category, and then provide evidence around that. So, I am specifically looking at…I’m using my informatics and wider improvement role and featuring it in that kind of way, which is being looked at, and then obviously regulated by them, but they do not fully recognise informatics yet as a distinct category.
[21:39] Louise: Yeah, but you’re still able to do that, because I know even for myself as an occupational therapist by training, the moment — because I never ended up doing clinical work, but I was able to keep up my registration as a therapist when I was teaching occupational therapy students, and once I stopped teaching occupational therapy students and started teaching health informatics and then doing more applied health informatics with more clinical professions, nope, not recognised.
[22:03] Lesley: Really?
[22:04] Louise: Still, to this day. So, it’s actually part of our organisation’s strategic plan, to get that problem fixed, but because we’re dealing with government regulation, that’s going to take years. But, yeah, it’s the same with all professions, they don’t tend to recognise — yet, anyway — the informatics component. So, again, it turns out Scotland is leading the world. That’s what I’m discovering in this interview [Light laughter].
[22:28] Lesley: But, as I said, I think we also had that discussion a way back, but the way…the position that we’ve taken is I am actually providing professional views, judgement, and expertise in relation to a stream of work which has direct impact on the therapists or on the clinicians that I’m working with. So, it’s just as appropriate as if I’m teaching them clinical skills.
Louise asks about other government programs in place in Scotland for clinical informaticians and its recognition as part of job roles. Lesley discusses a national leadership program around e-health and the innovative thinking and peer support it encourages.
[22:57] Louise: No, absolutely, of course. Alright, well, we just have more people to convince. Thank you, though. Alright, so what other…in terms of the actual practicalities of the workforce, the health informatics workforce and the clinical workforce, what sort of government programs are in place in Scotland to encourage…is there work to encourage more people doing this, is it part of formal recognition, at least as part of your job roles? Where is that at in Scotland?
[23:24] Lesley: Well, very fortunately, we were able to procure some resources from the government, and we’ve had a national leadership program around e-health that we developed, and I’m just trying to think if it’s three and a half years ago…it’s over three years, but we put eight cohorts of 20 people through that so far. So, at the moment — and, it’s a nine-month program which is fully supported by our national education providers, delivered by them, but with expertise coming in, and the idea of that is actually to really give a big push to leadership around this whole agenda, so what we’ve aimed to do is bring people in who are quite senior.
[24:07] Louise: So, they’re hand-picked, or do they nominate themselves?
[24:10] Lesley: They self-nominate, but they are people at associate director level, generally speaking, because we recognise that we’ve got quite a lot of interest from frontline staff etcetera, but they kept coming back to us repeatedly to us to say they were not supported in their sort of interest by, perhaps, their managers, and it wasn’t recognised at the highest level in institutions as being of priority, shall we say, and so therefore,
we decided to try and create a cohort of national leaders who work in our health boards throughout Scotland, and to provide leadership around this agenda,
and it’s, as I say, this is cohort eight that’s just finishing, and it’s nine months. Each of the programs we have running simultaneously, and we have committed to run at least another two cohorts before we actually take stock and think, “Do we need to offer this kind of training and development to another band or group of clinicians?” So, it’s aimed at clinicians. Interestingly enough, 60% of our applications come from allied health.
[25:25] Louise: Really?
[25:26] Lesley: 60.
[25:27] Louise: I’m lovin’ it. That’s so good.
[25:29] Lesley: Yeah. So, really big, big interest in that group of health professionals.
[25:33] Louise: Wow. That’s so good, Lesley. And then, the nature of that nine-month program as well. So, I guess there’s academic, that type of thing, as well as the practical side of things, and do they have to show up somewhere a day a week, or is it self-directed learning? How does that work?
[25:51] Lesley: It’s a program that brings people together face-to-face for over nine months for three two-day sessions, and it is interspersed with some remote groupings, and in addition to that, there are monthly learning sessions where you’re allocated a mentor and you’re in a smaller group. So, they get sort of peer and buddy support in between that, because there could be people who come from the very north of Scotland down to the borders, and covering the geography, which is a third of the UK, so in terms of practicalities. But, it allows them to teach, in terms of…it allows us, and
it allows them to learn in an environment which then makes them use technologies in a different way than they’ve been exposed to.
So, we use a range of technologies to support their learning and exposure as well.
The two continue their workforce and professionalisation discussion and the similar journey and struggles in the field that are shared globally. Louise applauds the Scottish healthcare system on their advances.
[26:48] Louise: Well, look, workforce issues are…I’m seeing even at this event we’re at here in London, it’s great to see that globally, there’s so much motivation around workforce issues in health informatics, because I think that’s been a long time coming for all of us, even though some are more advanced, as you are, but we all seem to be on similar journeys, and it’s great to see that the Scottish healthcare system, and the government that funds it, has really taken ownership of this, because I gather this is all supported, there’s budget line items for it. I’m very impressed. Thank you.
[27:19] Lesley: I suppose the key thing, I think, that’s come out of that, is that we now seeing, increasingly so, in every board in Scotland, and there are 14 territorial boards, we now have a designated allied health, nurse, midwife, and medic who work together on this whole agenda, and they have funded sessions to free them up from their clinical or other responsibilities so that they can start to drive this locally, and that to me has been wonderful to actually get that resource and the recognition in local boards that this role is really valued.
Louise concludes by asking Lesley to share career advice she has for clinicians, specifically in allied health. Lesley encourages listeners to find the question they want to answer most in the field as a driver for their work and contribution .
[27:58] Louise: Thank you. Alright, I’ve got a final question for you, Lesley. So, I’m sure this podcast will be…there will be a lot of allied health professionals listening to this, because we’re going to promote it to them. Anyway, so they’re listening to this. What advice do you have for clinicians in general, but maybe specifically allied health, about if they’re busy being a clinician, loving what they’re doing, but they’re curious about this or want to learn more. What sort of career advice do you have for them, because I know anywhere around the world, it’s quite similar — there isn’t just one path, do these three things, and you’ll get there, but where should they start, would you say?
[28:34] Lesley: Well, I think
the best place to start is to really find a question you want to answer, and that will be around your clinical practice, or the way your service is delivered, or your patient cohort, or your staff group. I think that the best thing to drive your first foot in the water if you’re interested in this, is find a really interesting question to answer. Then you have to work out, how do you get that information to answer that question? And, that will take you down a road that will never, ever end.
[29:06] Louise: I love that. Thank you so much for spending time with us here on Dissecting Digital Health. I really appreciate your time, Lesley, and thank you. I’m literally having to stop myself because I have so many more questions, but it’s just great to hear of the work you’re doing, and thank you for all of your leadership that you’ve taken throughout the years. You may not see it yourself, but it is so rare to have someone in your position who, no doubt, has done so much for advancing allied health and health informatics, so thank you for that.
[29:32] Lesley: Lovely, lovely to see you.
[29:33] Louise: Thanks, Lesley. See you later.
If you’d like to learn more about Lesley’s work and the great workforce e-health programs happening in Scotland — here
Lesley’s blog — http://www.lesleyholdsworth.com/
This article describes the NMAHP eHealth Leadership programme and give details on how to apply to Cohorts 4 or 5www.nes.scot.nhs.uk