In the following I would like to share my thoughts and some background info on the debate, that took place between Chris Kluwe and Mercedes Carrera on the David Pakman show, May 7th 2015.
(All the archives are in the comments to the right and sources are provided if available. Sorry for the length but I felt like it was relevant and also sorry for some weird sentences, English is not my native tongue.)
Starting with the introduction of Chris:
…Chris Kluwe, former NFL football player (who played eight seasons with the Minnesota Vikings), lifelong gamer, “provocateur at large” as he describes himself…
Let me level with you for you a bit here on the provocateur-bit. This is a guy, who has kept the information that two well known Vikings players were found in a compromising situation with an underage girl a secret until it was useful for him.
Source Chris Kluwe can’t be moral crusader after his cruel Twitter rant
And while I applaud his efforts to speak out for same-sex marriage, it’s clear that he has a dog in this fight, seeing that he’s a writer for Deadspin (Gawker’s sports blog). He’s also a general douchebag that likes to generalize and insult large groups of people:
Source Sparks fly when Chris Kluwe meets Gamergate on Reddit
Oh boy, aren’t we in for a great start? This is a true moral arbiter, I cannot wait to be lectured from a person of such caliber.
After then introducing Mercedes, David begins the Debate by asking
…let’s see if we can figure out what each of you thinks that Gamergate- the Gamergate Movement is about
which is unfortunate because by now David has repeatedly heard that Gamergate is not a movement, but I will not get into this here.
Chris’ response
Sure, well in my view, based on all the factual evidence that I’ve seen, the Gamergate Movement is a essentially quest, set forth by Eron Gjoni, to humiliate Zoe Quinn, who was his ex.
Interesting that he would use factual evidence in the same sentence as giving his opinion about why Eron wrote the Zoe Post. This is a minor gripe but let’s just say that while he may be incapable of coming to a different conclusion, there are other ways to interpret the motivation.
And he shopped his rage story around to a couple of different forums, eventually got picked up on 4chan and later moved to 8chan and you had a bunch of people, primarily chan-members orchestrating this behind the scenes, which can be seen in the IRC-Logs that Zoe collected over the span of about a month or so. That this originally started as a way to humiliate her…
I want to interject here because while the first part of what he says is true, the latter — namely that this originally started as a way to humiliate her — is factually incorrect. For one thing the discussion took place in /v/ (which is the video game board), if this had been about harassment you would expect a different board. And as can be seen here, the goal from the start was
Regarding the IRC-logs by which I assume you mean the ones detailed here I will only say the following:
• The IRC was open and public and anybody was able to join and say anything.
• She has taken many of the things she posted out of context, details in this thread on reddit.
• The stuff she posted is outright conspiratorial (the same stuff you seem to want to accuse us of). GG used TFYC as pawns? GG used Adam Baldwin as a puppet?
• The full IRC-logs can be seen here and when not taken out of context are shown to be much less inflammatory than Ms. Quinn would have you believe
(just an FYI, I had a bullet point here denouncing this, that I falsely attributed to this section instead of the happening on the 22nd)
..and then later after they were getting pushback they started the operation NotYourShield in an effort to make it seem like the movement was about more than just harassing a woman. And then once Adam Baldwin saw the YouTube video by — I believe it was — Mundane Matt, he coined the term Gamergate, which people kinda glomed on to because Adam has a lot of followers, but at its core, the movement still remains a way for people to harass women.
Well, according to this account the NotYourShield-hashtag was started before #Gamergate. But let’s disregard his incompetence here, the actual timeline of events was that Mundane Matt uploaded his video (Hell hath no fury like a lover’s scorn (Zoe Quinn & Eron Gjoni)) on the same day the discussions on 4chan started, namely the 16th of August.
This was followed by site after site banning discussion of the topic like this famous graveyard on reddit
Source http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2dz0gs/totalbiscuit_discusses_the_state_of_games/
There was also the incident of the hacking and doxxing of Polytron and Zoe Quinn that occured on the 22nd for which apparently a bunch of hackers on /v/ took credit. I’ll be the first to say that not only was this wrong, this is one of the uncontrollable elements that you get for being part of an anonymous group on the internet. I myself have never participated in any of this and I completely denounce this kind of behavior.
So after over a week of outright censorship of this topic, Adam Baldwin tweeted the Gamergate-hashtag on the 27th of August linking to two of Internet Aristocrat’s videos. However it is not only reductionist but also revisionist to assert that this was the sole reason #Gamergate took off. On the 28th and 29th of August Gamers are dead happened. If Adam Baldwin had been responsible, you would have seen a bigger spike on the 27th, instead what you see is a natural progression and a steep rise as the articles sunk in.
In the wake of this and the constant deflection of criticism saying that #GamerGate only cared about harassing women and minorities, #NotYourShield started on the 3rd of September
So much for factual evidence, but let’s continue.
Which is really unfortunate because I think that noone who opposes Gamergate has a problem with the idea of ethics in journalism. That’s a goal everyone should aspire to.
Riiight, we just witnessed the reaction to #Gamergate producing a website documenting all the ethical concerns we have accumulated over time. The reaction was clearly as Chris would like to have us believe…
Our problem is that the means somehow seem to be more about harassing people than they do about actually seeking ethics in journalism.
I’m just going to let the next few tweets speak for themselves and then bring in some actual data
Now I won’t go into much detail here, because there is this article that has all the relevant information, but let me say this, if #Gamergate is about harassing women, we have utterly failed at that goal.
So, that’s how I view Gamergate and I believe that’s how a large majority of the world views Gamergate.
Now let’s see how Mercedes fares
My perception of Gamergate, given the information that I have and that I’ve observed online is that actually it is a movement that has been in the making for years.
People disagree about what what exactly #Gamergate really is, but I personally go with the definition that it is a hashtag (which she later does as well). My assumption is that she simply went with what people used and didn’t give it much thought here, but she later clarifies that she uses the same definition.
What I find to be more interesting though is that she actually brings up the fact that this has been in the making for many years. And damn is she spot on with that. Just to name one that’s being going since 2013
And the hashtag itself and the origination of it indeed did start with the Eron Post and I think that is something that a lot of people can agree on. And I’m not disputing that Zoe Quinn received harassment for that.
Minor error with regards to the name of the post and yes, nobody disputes that Zoe did receive harassment. Nobody condones it either, though some people like to conveniently overlook that fact that people have been posting this for quite some time now…
Wanna see more? https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=condemn%20personal%20threats%20%23gamergate&src=typd
However if we go back to the ethics in gaming journalism assertion, what you find is actually, this is a conversation that’s been had for a while. That post shed light on collusion or alleged collusion between Zoe Quinn a developer and a journalist and that’s why gamers started to really get angry about this.
Yes, the Zoe Post did present the public with a clear cut case of collusion. Now Chris likes to dispute this, but the good news is, that he has to deny reality for this.
Source http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=nathan_grayson
And if you go forward in the timeline, there’s so many different parts of this movement. Unfortunately, instead of being responsible — and the journalist could have been responsible or perhaps looked into the allegations of collusion — instead it was easier to offload that; smear that and say well it’s actually about harassing women.
To be fair, Stephen Totilo did offer us a lukewarm reply saying that effectively he had talked to Nathan and he had denied the allegation that they were in a relationship at the time of writing for Kotaku.
For one thing, we know that this is factually wrong because of tweets going back to 2012
these just being passed around a week before the event
Sources http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=nathan_grayson
But sure, nothing to see here, oh so very professional… But at least Kotaku allowed for open discussion after they wrote this…
Oooh right…
But I’m sure these are all very shitty comments, because this is how professionals deal with concerned (hyper-)consumers (and shitslingers).
And I think that’s where a lot of Gamergate-affiliated people started to say well no, that’s not what this is about. Actually the hashtag started as a result of “here’s a post that in some ways proves that yes there was a collusion happening”. And that’s the origination, I don’t agree with the idea that Gamergate is a movement to harass women. I’ve been very involved in it, nobody has harassed me just for being a woman and that’s the reason I got involved in looking into it to begin with. I was observing it from the outside as a woman whose been in tech and what I heard of it at first was that this is about harassing women and when I looked a little deeper I just found that wasn’t true.
Whatever happened to
..when a woman tells you about her experience?
After the introductory statements David asks Chris
Do you believe Chris, that there is a concern about ethics in journalism from those who claim to have that concern?
To which Chris replies
Yes, I do believe there are people in Gamergate who are concerned about ethics in journalism, I think that number is growing smaller every day as they see what the core of the movement is about and I think that there is no problem with having a concern about ethics in video game journalism. I think there should be discussion about ethics in video game journalism.
Wait is this the same person that wrote this not too long ago?
I guess you could call this progress after the initial spitfroth-reaction.
David then goes on to ask Mercedes
And Mercedes do you also agree that there is an aspect of this that is involved in harassing women as Chris asserts?
To which she replies
I think that that definitely happened, especially in the beginning; absolutely. And I actually did some digging on that before this and I have the numbers on that.
I reached out to her and she confirmed that she was referring to the article I mentioned earlier (with regards to harassment). She also mentioned data by @ProfessorF, however this data is not available online.
David then allows Chris to bring up some counter claims to Mercedes’ opening
So I think the first assertation that is troubling is the idea that there was the idea of collusion inside the Zoe Post that Eron Gjoni posted and the actual, factual matter of that is that those claims were investigated and it was found that nothing had happened.
Already covered this, the investigation appears to have consisted of: “Did you have a relationship with her before you wrote that piece?”, “Nope”, “Ok”.
There was no big writeup of Depression Quest by Nathan Grayson. That didn’t happen. He mentioned it once because it was a game at an Indie Gay Jam. And then there was no other mention of it.
This is in fact true. At least with regards to Kotaku, he did bring up Zoe two more times on RPS though. The only thing to go by there are their flirty tweets (that’s just my interpretation though).
So the idea that this thing was because of collusion, well the facts aren’t there to back it up.
This however is not true. For starters Eron never claimed that Zoe had slept with Nathan for review scores. He merely mentioned that Nathan worked for Kotaku. So even if Chris would like to speak against the facts. This did indeed start on /v/ because of concerns over collusion.
The other idea that Gamergate started with was: Zoe Quinn slept with five guys in order to get her game reviewed. That’s why their IRC-channel was called Burger and Fries, it was a reference to Five Guys, again, no factual basis for that whatsoever. The only reason it existed was to harass Zoe Quinn and to make her feel horrible about herself. So I find it troubling that there is this thought that Gamergate somehow had this noble purpose that arose from the Zoe Post, when all along the facts are there: It was completely about harassing Zoe Quinn.
Again, Eron never claimed that Zoe slept with anybody for review scores, the implication is of course there that developers and journalists are awfully close and that this deserves attention. But Eron didn’t claim what Chris accuses him of doing and he did in fact add a note to the Zoe Post to clarify this.
And it still is about harassing Zoe Quinn. Mike Cernovich just the other day posted harassment of Zoe Quinn.
Chris’ definition of harassment
Milo Yiannopoulos just the other day posted harassment of Zoe Quinn.
Chris’ definition of harassment
You can shake your head all you want, but the facts are right there online and many people have seen them.
David
So Mercedes, that’s a specific thing, the two instances there Milo Yiannopoulos and Mike Cernovich that Chris is talking about do you reject that those took place or do you maybe have a different characterization of what entails harassment?
Mercedes
There are several things that are going on here. What I’ve noticed is in the anti-Gamergate camp the definition of harassment tends to be a moving goalpost. So for example my first experience with Chris Kluwe here was actually him dogpiling me with Sarah Butts attempting to have me targeted by a notorious online troll board. Now that could be defined as harassment. And that’s the truth.
Chris interrupts
David continues
Let Mercedes at least finish what the claim is. Okay, so you’re actually saying you think-. So, the one thing I do wanna clarify though is, earlier you said you had not been the victim of harassment, but you’re saying that, you think Chris Kluwe may have actually encouraged harassment of you.
Way to go to doubly misrepresent the situation there David. For one thing, Mercedes clearly said she had not received harassment from Gamergate and she clearly just said that Chris and Sarah were dogpiling her to have her targeted by a notorious online troll board.
Mercedes
I didn’t say that I had been-. Let me rephrase this. I have been harassed online, largely as a result of being a porn actress and that’s a given.
I would love to expand on this, but isn’t it funny that Mercedes (assuming feminists care about women) not only faces harassment from The Patriarchy, but also from sex-negative feminists? Anyway, I’m glad you’re taking it so well Mercedes.
And anti-Gamergate and Chris Kluwe in particular with a notorious online troll — and this is a whole backstory and I’ve documented this — my first experience with Chris Kluwe was actually him dogpiling me with this notorious online troll. Now this troll had a conflict with this troll board online, on a 8chan board, now I don’t visit 8chan. I don’t go on 8chan very regularly. I’ve been on there 4–5 times in my life. And they actually attempted to have me targeted by this board. And they wanted me to speak out on this unrelated board, that had nothing to do with Gamergate whatsoever. And quite frankly if you look at it, that‘s a setup and that’s harassment. And that’s the truth of it. In regards to Zoe Quinn, I think most of Gamergate wants that whole thing to go away. Nobody wants to talk about Zoe Quinn.
I will get into the details of the dogpiling a little further down where Chris mentions the tweets. I do want to touch on the ZQ thing Mercedes mentioned. Namely, there is a reason why Gamergate has renamed her Literally Who, it’s because literally nobody wants to talk about her any more than is necessary.
David
Let’s pause the Zoe Quinn part just for a second, since now we’re getting into some other specific stuff. So Chris definitely you should address however you view what Mercedes is referring to with this incitement to dogpile.
Chris
Yup, I have the tweets right here. It was on January 5th. Sarah Nyberg, otherwise known as srhbutts on twitter, she does a great job compiling the things that Gamergate says — in their own words — and then rebroadcast them.So, people can see exactly what Gamergate is. I believe Mercedes has referred to her as a troll. That’s not actually trolling, that’s just showing people who other people are.
Oh boy, where to begin. For starters, we are talking about a person who has openly claimed to be a pedophile
who believes that the only problem is society, not consent
even going as low as age 4
She also likes to spend her time on twitter talking about how awful doxxing is 739 times since Oct 3rd to be precise (which is around ~3.4 times a day) and openly criticizes and mocks people over it
But when she thinks that it’s for a noble cause — defined by her as sending death/rape threats and not, let’s say pedophilia — it can be used for good.
So yeah Chris, I can totally see why you would put all your trust and faith in such a person. It’s also veeeery convenient that what this person does on Twitter is not trolling, it’s just showing people who other people are. But what Mike Cernovich did, well that’s just harassment. There’s a word in the dictionary that you might want to look up sometime
Lastly I would like to point out, that even though, according to our credible source Chris here, srhbutts only ever rebroadcasts things to people. This time she dogpiled Mercedes, putting a burden on her to denounce a board that has actively targeted Gamergaters.
So anyways, Sarah Butts tweeted @TheMercedesXXX with a dot, so this could be considered dogpiling because it was a dot-reply it was not an @-reply. Sarah Nyberg tweeted if you’re really against harassment in GG, use your influence to get Baphomet off of 8chan, it’s endangering lives. I responded to you with a @-reply, not a dot-reply, that’s not dogpiling, that’s speaking to someone. The only people who can see that, are people who follow both you and me. I’m willing to bet that’s a pretty small group of people.
Funny how quickly Chris shifts the attention from the fact that Sarah dogpiled Mercedes to him not dogpiling her since he didn’t use the dot. Well, I’m sorry Chris, you might not have perpetrated the dogpiling yourself, but you have clearly approved of the dogpiling done by Sarah.
You can talk all you want about how this is not the same, but you were actively participating in the dogpiling.
I responded with, I will second this call, prove Baphomet and GG aren’t connected, call for their removal, lots of GG follow you.
Also what you were asking of Mercedes is ridiculous. If you want baphomet removed talk to the site admin or the authorities. Instead you opted to dogpile on Mercedes trying to bait her into starting a fight with baphomet as she clearly and beautifully pointed out. It becomes more obvious a little further down. This was obvious bait and her reply to you should have been enough.
You are a voice and a face of Gamergate and this as you say, Gamergate is against harassment, Gamergate is not about harassment.
Just a minor point, if Mercedes is a voice and face of Gamergate and she says it is not about harassment, how come you don’t listen and believe her?
So, when this board Baphomet starts targeting GG targets and then all of a sudden they start exposing people’s personal information, mine included. I think it’s a perfectly legitimate thing to say to Gamergate, if they are truly against harassment to denounce a board that is targeting people that oddly enough 90% of which oppose Gamergate. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
I want you to read this last statement very carefully. Chris admits that baphomet has been targeting not only GG but also antis. This is exactly what Gamergate has been saying for months now. For those of you who don’t know, there are currently at least three independent troll groups involved in causing all kinds of havoc on both sides (and other venues independent of GG).
There is /baphomet/ also known as baph, who have a board on 8chan and are just overall unpleasant fellows who love to cause shit for the lulz.
Then there is Ayy lmao aka. AyyTeam or just Ayy, these are mostly just shitposters who love to put Ayy lmao on all the things.
And last but not least there is also the Gay Nigger Association of America also known as GNAA. Interestingly even Wikipedia — which people of Gamergate have come to appreciate for shoddy reporting— acknowledges the involvement of this group (but still somehow manages to blame all the harassment on Gamergate).
Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Nigger_Association_of_America#2010s
So — while I dunno where he has the 90% figure from — it wouldn’t surprise me at all if 90% of the people in baphomet opposed Gamergate. However since Chris acknowledges that a part of Gamergate also cares about ethics, maybe he will eventually come to the conclusion, that what he and his buddies are actually upset with, are the these trolls (and by doing so they might finally realize that they were wasting everyone’s time and energy). Baby steps towards the truth. But I’m not holding my breath.
Lastly I would like to share just one more tidbit about Chris’ behavior after the talk, because as you can imagine, a man of his caliber — who shows up to an interview like a slob and pretends to be well informed when he’s mostly been spouting uninformed nonsense — won’t let such an opportunity pass to shine as the provocateur at large that he is.
So after the debate lizzy tweeted two humorous remarks to both of them
which promoted this reply from Mercedes
which Chris followed up by doing this
Yup, he just told a woman of Puerto Rican descent that she’s a Nacho Shield…
Mercedes being the strong independent woman that she is didn’t let this sit on her.
to which Chris only had this to say…
So because she doesn’t know all of the in-jokes that he and his buddies in anti-Gamergate use to to make fun of women and minorities (aka people using #NotYourShield), she is to blame. This is literally victim blaming. It’s also worth noting, that he only ever used this expression once.
And if you think I’m reading to much into this, here’s one of his feminist buddies spelling it out for you
I rest my case.
And n
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Additional viewing/reading
by @Vernaculis
