SVCO: Sonny Vu — 10 Lessons from Failure
Sonny Vu: Can everyone hear me okay? Let’s have some fun. I know I’m standing between you and lunch, which can be a challenge so let’s have some fun with this. I’m going to tell you about my background for the purpose of context in case you don’t know much about me. I wouldn’t expect you to know much about me. Then I’m going to talk about some lessons I’ve learnt from failure and then I’m going to talk a little bit about how I’m going to start my next company which is a little weird because I’m actually doing a company right now… What I actually mean is what I’m trying to do right now in the company. If we have a little bit of time, we’re going to have some fun with a little puzzle which I’m going to leave you with.
Very quickly, a little background. I’ve been doing start-ups for around 15 years depending on how you count it and I say I’m a serial entrepreneur because I haven’t really made it yet. Entrepreneurs like Mark Zuckerberg, he’s not a serial entrepreneur, he’s done… I think he’s there. My first company was a natural language software company which I did in the mid-nineties. It was one of the very early ones. It used machine learning to assist natural language processing. We sold that to a search engine. For the most part, it was a failure. Investors recovered some money, but not all of it.
Then I went back to school, at MIT, I tried to finish, dropped back out again, Asian parents weren’t too happy. I started my second company with my buddy Sridhar who was coming with me on my second adventure. We had known each other since the end of high school. We built a medical device business over the course of ten years. It was actually pretty successful. We got to about $100m in revenue, profitable, 150 people in Boston. It was pretty good. Then I met John Sculley and then we decided to, after becoming friends, I asked him one day, “Hey, do you want to start a company?” not really expecting much but surprisingly he said yes. I said, “That’s great,” so I called up my buddy once again and said, “Hey do you want to do it a third time? Third time’s a charm right?” and so we started Misfit, this was about three years ago. The timeline for that is, we did a seed round of financing. We felt we were too old to do seed rounds any more so we just did it ourselves.
We had a prototype, we raised a Series A pretty quickly from a couple of notable investors, Peter Theil from Founders Fund and Vinod Khosla from Khosla Ventures. Almost scandalously so, shortly after raising the round of financing, we decided to pivot and everyone seemed okay with it, which was great. We did a crowd funding campaign on our very first product which is the Misfit Shine, an activity tracker, which I have a couple of here. It did great. It blew up. We did an Indigogo campaign. Indigogo is like Kickstarter but I think a lot better and friendlier. It did really well.
We took it to CES which is the big consumer electronics show and had a lot of fun there. It did well there. We encountered Apple, we launched the product with them in all 15 countries later that year. One thing lead to another. We raised a second round of financing from Horizons, which is a Venture Capital firm in Hong Kong associated with Sir Li Ka-shing, the richest man in Asia. Then we went on to do a number of deals, with Coca Cola, with Victoria Secret, with Swarovski. We were selected as the official activity tracker for the Olympics and then the World Cup. It was just quite a whirlwind. Then we started releasing products. We recently did a round of financing with Xiaomi, which is a big Chinese tech company, if you’ve heard of them. We’ve been slowly making our way into the smart homes space, which I think is actually quite an interesting place to be. So that’s a quick whirlwind background in terms of Misfit as a company and where I am today.
The company is based in San Francisco, I think some of you had the chance to visit us when you were making a trek out there, thank you for coming. Design happens in San Francisco, there are about 40 people there, then everything else is done in ___[0:5:11] and Ho Chi Minh City. I’m from Vietnam so we do some of the work there. Manufacturing surprisingly is done in Seoul, Korea and as Claire was just saying, we invent and manufacture wearable and smart home products. I’m just going to speak very briefly about wearables and smart home and then spent most of the time talking. Basically, what we wanted to do, Sridhar and I, was pick a category where we knew the market was going to be growing over the next five to ten years. We felt that over the last several decades we had been through several revolutions in computing — the PC revolution, the internet, mobiles and social in the 2000s and now I believe, we’re in the thick of the Internet of Things era, where things in our cars, our homes, our bodies are connected. Our bodies become wearables.
If there was one thought I’d leave with you, it would be that whether you think wearables is over-hyped or not. Honestly, I think it is, because it’s a little early but that’s okay. We’ll take the hype. Wearables 1.0. We’re very much in an era where you have bulky plastic things. You’ve got to track it. It’s for athletes and activity tracking, heart rate, that kind of thing. I really think we’re in a transition to an era where these products are going to be much more lifestyle-orientated, things that you would wear all of the time, which would be much more appealing to wear. You can see some more intersections with fashion and most importantly, I think, these things are going to be more useful. I think one of the reasons why these products have had some barriers to adoption is because of lack of utility, which seems kind of odd.
Right now, what we’ve seen are products that are doing activity tracking of various sorts — health monitoring, alerts and notifications. If you’re got these products at home and you’re halfway to work, you probably would not turn around for them. They’re just not that compelling just yet compared to your iPhone, which you would definitely turn around for. Wearables 2.0 is where a lot of these cases will be headed, where we’re going to be seeing a lot more safety things, a lot more identifications. We’ll be seeing wearables where you’ll be seeing payments and security applications being implemented as well as controls — being able to control smart home products through these devices.
In case you didn’t know what we did, our first product is the Shine, an activity tracker that was basically designed to be very pretty and wearable first. Wearable tech that was designed not to look like wearable tech — that was incredibly customizable. Our second product was a really affordable product of that, which was plastic, a product that makes your bed smart. You don’t have to wear anything actually but you’ll get all sorts of great data about how well you sleep. One of our first home products is a smart lightbulb which is in itself very beautiful and also generates very beautiful light. All of this is obviously connected.
Right, so that’s the quick run through in terms of my background, and wearables and the internet of things. If you want to talk about wearables and the internet of things, I’d be delighted to talk more about that with you, just drop me a note but what I really wanted to share was just things I learnt from the last three companies for the last decade or so. I was at an event last year, which I’m actually going to right after this event, in San Francisco, where I heard Bill Gates being interviewed by Jack Dorsey about failure. They went on for about two hours and it was amazing. I thought, “Wow, if Gates can talk about failure for two hours, I can probably talk about it for ten or 15 minutes.” He said at the end, “If this Microsoft thing doesn’t work out, there’s always Harvard.” I guess I could say, “If this Misfit thing doesn’t work out, I could always try to finish my degree at MIT.”
Okay, so I just want to share with you ten things really quickly that I’ve just kind of learnt. It’s really a hodgepodge of lessons that honestly, you guys probably already know from going to business school but I never had a chance to go to business school so I’ve had to learn this the hard way. The first is hiring. It’s one of my favourite topics. It’s one of the most important things you can do as an entrepreneur. The things I’ve learnt… Every time I’ve hired in desperation, it’s almost always ended in disaster. I’ve almost never made a great hire when it was done out of desperation. Often, because of whatever hiring committees that get created because one is not autocratic about hiring… Often you’re looking for people with no weaknesses rather than incredible strength. I say, hire for strength, not just lack of weaknesses.
This latter point was something I learnt from John Sculley, the former CEO of Apple, who is now the co-founder of Misfit. He always said, “Only work with people you like.” I always thought that was a little odd. I thought, “You’re John Scully, everybody wants to work with you. I’m just a chump, I’ve got to hustle and make it work.” I’ve just learned over the years that he is absolutely right. You always have that choice and it’s really important to make that choice because working with people you don’t like is just the most terrible life situation to be in. It’s really worth it to make that decision. In terms of who, if I’ve learned anything from my first company, where we hired a load of smart people, I learnt that hiring just for IQ… We hired a bunch of smart people and we had a lot of social problems, a lot of egos, not a great situation.
In my second company, we decided to hire on experience. We found out that a lot of these people that we thought had 20 years of experience didn’t actually have 20 years of experience but one year of experience twenty times and it’s actually worse. We learnt that it wasn’t just about experience. In the first company, we learnt that what I like to look for is skills and not just IQ. Wisdom and graciousness and great judgment and not just experience. Is there a great interview question to find out about is wisdom? Not that I know of but we’re trying out different things.
Last but not least, cultural fit. I’ll talk a little bit more about this. Culture is something that I think we talk a lot about in Silicon Valley and it is quite important so I think that’s why people talk about it. Setting the foundation early is one of the most important things I’ve learned. Your culture, I wouldn’t say fossilizes but it does kind of solidify and it’s quite hard to change after a certain point. Hiring and firing based on values is super important. Something I’ve learnt to always err towards is that performance is one thing but values are non-negotiable. I’ll talk a bit more about that.
The last thing is if you’re doing a start-up, it’s about work life integration, not work-life balance. If one of the first questions you have in mind is, “Oh, what’s work life balance going to be like in my new start-up?” Well, there isn’t much of one. Work is life and life is work. I think some people would probably disagree with me and say that they neatly partition their lives but you’re kind of always thinking about it and I think start-ups need some level of obsession in order to really succeed.
Speaking of values, I think one of most important things I’ve learnt is really setting out values that will drive forward decisions and not just generic values. I believe Enron had values like integrity and communication. It’s like, are you not going to have integrity? No. I’ll share with you what our values will be in just a second but it’s important that they’re specific and can drive decisions. Reinforcing them with stories so that people can remember these values and the team embodies it, that’s quite important for us. We’ve institutionalized a few stories that have been passed on, not necessarily by design, they just happen to get passed on and they get retold and retold and that seems to be working. Recognising people when appropriate who share values and saying, “This is something that’s really cool that we love here at Misfit. Everyone please do stuff like that.” This is taken out of Jack Walters’ book partially in terms of value versus performance consideration. People who deliver on their commitments and people who don’t deliver on their commitments. People who share your values and people who don’t share your values.
Probably the most striking quadrant is the lower left here. There are the people who deliver but don’t share your values and I’ve learnt time and time again over three start-ups that those are the folks who are probably the most dangerous to the organisation in fact, because they have the greatest chance for influence in the company in terms of changing your core cultural values. I used to think it was a difficult decision to let such people go but I’ve come to learn that it should be a very easy decision. You always encounter that person and you think, “He’s so good but man, he’s such a jerk.” It’s just not worth it. There are other great people out there and you have to keep doing the hard work recruiting.
At Misfit, it’s about doing things differently. We have to because we don’t have the resources. It’s about being thoughtful. It’s about doing more with less and it’s about being a servant leader, meaning the more senior you are, the more service-orientated, especially to your direct reports, you’re expected to be. So you come up with your own values. Think for yourself, think about what’s non-negotiable for you and communicate that to the team.
People. We’ve talked about recruiting, getting talent, getting more from talent and culture a lot but I think the discussion around investing in people often gets overlooked, especially at an early stage. We’re busy building a product, we don’t have time to train people. What are you talking about? You have to train yourself. Well maybe that’s true for a period of time before season but at some point, one of the best ways to get productivity out of the team is to make the team more effective at what they do. Investing in training early, time and money, investing in feedback. Feedback is huge. At Misfit, we believe that everybody has a very basic right to regular, honest and bi-directional feedback processes. We have a whole template for that.
Finally, letting people fail. I’ve got a few little nuggets that I’ve collected from my mentors over the years and this is one of my favourite ones from Vinod where he talks about allowing people to attempt things that they didn’t know they were capable of. That’s one of the most powerful things that I’ve learnt over the last few years.
The environment. I think the key things to really making your start-up or work culture to be amazing is to really turn it into a place where work doesn’t feel like work. If work is ever boring, that is the worst form of work ever. I mean you’re working from 7am until 1am every day right? Those are start-up hours, that’s the reality. There’s no way you can sustain that kind of thing six or seven days a week for seven years. There’s no way you could sustain that if it felt like work at any point. We’ve created our environment, again think for yourselves about how you can create an environment. The way we think about it is, work that gives you a sense of purpose, working with people you like, doing cool stuff with your buds while being surrounded by good food. I mean, what greater situation is there right?
One of my favourite quotes from John and I tell this to new recruits is they say, “Why should I work for a start-up?” And I say, “Well, one of the benefits is that you get to do things that you’re not qualified for.” It’s really true. I was, I guess 24 right and why should a 24-year-old kid get to be a CEO of a company? That just should not happen but someone gave me money so I had a shot and well, I lost money in my first company but they invested again in my second company, in all three actually, some of the investors did.
Leading. I’m going to try to speed up a little bit. I hope you don’t mind the accelerated pace here but these slides will be available. Believing in standing up for what you believe in I think is one of the most important things I’ve learnt in the last couple of companies. Again, it seems kind of trite to say that but I feel like I’ve learned it the hard way so that is again, what one needs to do. Another quote from Venod is, “The regret that comes from doing something that you shouldn’t have is temporary, but the regret that comes from not doing something that you should have is inconsolable.” It’s really, really true. When I think about the things that I didn’t do that I should have done in my previous companies… When I should have stood up for what I believed in even though I was young and was being told that I was inexperienced and that I didn’t know what I was talking about, I should have stood up anyway.
Product. I’ll skip over this a bit but you know the old saying from Jobs, “It’s not the user’s job to know what they want.” No matter what you’re designing and what you’re making, at some point there’s as a user. It’s one of the biggest things I think entrepreneurs forget, or at least, first or second time entrepreneurs, especially in Silicon Valley, a lot of us founders are very product-focused. “I just want to build a really great product and they’re going to buy it.” Well I think the most important thing actually for us entrepreneurs to do is to build a business. That’s why people invest in us, because they want us to build a great business and not just a great product. Otherwise, just be a product manager somewhere.
Being lean, I’ll skip through that. If you’ve read Eric Rie’s book on Lean Start-up, it’s a totally awesome book. It’s about minimizing the cost of experimentation so that you can fail quickly and get to the right product. It’s about being relentlessly focused on user feedback.
Sales. In a later part of this presentation which I won’t be able to get to now… I always say that the most important role for an entrepreneur is sales. If you think about doing your start up, just consider the following thing. The most important role that you’re going to do in a company is be a sales person. You’re trying to convince investors to give you money, that is incredibly high risk. You’re trying to get the media to talk about you when there’s nothing to talk about. You’re trying to get people to work for you for half the rate that they would normally get at a way higher risk profile. You’re trying to get customers to buy something that doesn’t exist and you’re trying to get partners to work with you when they really shouldn’t be partnering with start-ups. That is your job, day in day out, it’s sales so I’ll just leave it at that.
The last thing I’ve learned, probably one of the most important things that I’ve learned from a recent mentor, Chairman Li Ka-shing, just an amazing business person, is to give first and to get later. His thing that he’s said that has stuck with me for quite some time now is, “Always leave money on the table for the other side.” As entrepreneurs we’re all driven to try to optimize, optimize, optimize and at some point, it actually isn’t the best thing to do.
It’s twenty minutes so I’m going to leave it at that and I’m going to let you think about questions but I also have a little puzzle which I’m going to leave with you. It’s about thinking out of the box. Like I said, I’ll leave these slides on because I want to get through the second half but it’s the nine dot puzzle where you connect the dots with a straight line. I’m going to give prizes out to people who can solve this. Who’s heard of this puzzle before? You have to connect the puzzle with four lines instead of five. If you’ve raised your hand, you’re disqualified but I encourage the rest to think outside of the box and think about how you can connect those nine dots with just four lines instead of five. That’s five lines, see if you can do it in four.
Female: My question is, how do you distinguish from cultural fit and group think?
Sonny Vu: That’s a really hard question. You know, I think group think might be… When I think of group think, I think of people thinking the same thoughts and not being able to brainstorm but I think cultural fit is more about values fit, what would you do instinctively? We have very basic… We only have four things. You’ve got to think differently. You must think differently. There’s no choice. You have to do more with less. These are guidelines, questions to ask ourselves but I don’t think it limits us. I think forcing ourselves to do more with less, I don’t think it will constrain us. Not the best answer sorry. Cultural values are more like guide posts. This lady here.
Female: Thank you for the speech. On the slide you said, it’s not the user’s job to know what they want but in that case, how do you do the user tests? How do you collect the user feedback? Thank you.
Sonny Vu: That’s a really great question. We will actually let the designers and product inventors come up with stuff and let them iterate by trying it out on people. It’s: watch users, prototype, repeat. I think that’s what Apple does. Rather than focus groups that say, “Hey, what would you like in a smartphone?” “What’s a smartphone?” “Well, I don’t know just think of a phone that can do a bunch of stuff, what would you want in it?” “I don’t know, like a lot of really cool buttons?” “But how about something that didn’t have any buttons?” “Uhh…” If it hasn’t been invented yet, people wouldn’t know how to invent it necessarily. User testing.
Male: Hi, can you tell us a story about the cultural misfit people who did not share your values and you had to get rid of them?
Sonny Vu: Sure, we had this one gentleman, there were plenty of stories… not too many but we’ve had some. We had an amazing sales person. This man could sell sand to a man in a desert. Incredible sales person but was just a little self-absorbed and was really not getting the whole servant leadership thing. He wanted people to do stuff for him as he was becoming more senior, rather than the other way around. Taking out the trash was too low of a job. I put him on warning, it didn’t work out and we let him go despite his amazing performance. We were crippled as a company on a commercial basis for a quarter but it was totally worth it.
Male: Thank you for the talk. What is your feeling and cultural fit with Chinese investors and in particular Xiaomi? I think a lot of people, in particular, Westerners I guess are a little bit worried if there is a good cultural fit and experience. What would you recommend?
Sonny Vu: When we started Misfit, we said, “It’s our third start-up, we’re too old to get investors that we can’t get along with.” It just really sucks. We had some negative experiences in the past where we just put up with stuff for years. I said, “That’s it. We’re not going to put up with that any more. We’re only going to work with people we like.” We went with the new guard, which I really think is like Founders Fund, Horizons, Adreessen Horowitz, that’s new guard. Very founder-friendly, very “believe in the founder as the CEO kind of approach” and we loved them.
Xiaomi and what not and GGVC, it wasn’t… they’ve been amazing partners but they weren’t what we expected but overall it’s been great because there’s been a lot of mutual interest. They like our design. They like our story-telling ability and our product marketing and our ability to reach for the best. We love their supply chain, and their reach and insight into Chinese consumers. We have a lot to gain from each other so there really hasn’t been too much of a cultural clash but that’s actually a really important thing to ask and consider if you’re taking outside finance to think, “What are the cultural values of the investor?” It’s okay to ask them to pitch to you on why they’re a cultural fit.
Female: Pretty good segway to that one, which was, as you think about taking money from investors, a lot of people become like, “Someone’s offering me money. I’m ecstatic, I’m going to take it,” especially at the beginning, right? But how do you think about, “Is this person investing in me because of a commercial viability?” because ultimately that must play a very important part to it. The other part is also, “She really believes in me and this actually might not be as commercial at the end of the day.”
How do you balance the commercial viability of it from a valuation and how much freedom you have to develop your product or business going forward? Most people are commercial but some are less so.
Sonny Vu: I hope they’re investing in me generally because they think I’ll be a commercial success of some sort. I guess there are non-profits here and that’s where your question comes from. Well, I’ll just say this. One of my favourite litmus tests when you’re considering the right investors…. Is this the right investor? Try the following test.
Consider yourself in the situation when the company has made a mistake, especially if that mistake was because of you. It was very clear that you made the mistake. You’re the moron, you did something stupid and a terrible thing happened. Now, is your first thought about the investor, “Oh man, how am I going to position it with the investor? How am I going to present it to them?” Or is your first thought to pick up the phone and call them and say, “Hey man, we really screwed up, what do you think we ought to do?” If it’s the former, don’t take them, and if it’s the latter, definite candidate.
I have to say, with Brian Singerman from Founder’s Fund, he is like the latter, not the former. I’ve had investors like the former, where I did have that thought, “Man, what am I going to say to investors now?” But with Brian, I pick up the phone and say, “Man, I did the dumbest thing ever, what do you think we ought to do?” There’s no judgement. I’m sure there’s a judgement thought bubble at some point but there’s generally no judgement and we work through it and it’s awesome. Because of that, he gets the full transparency that any other founder might get and I get a ton of help and comfort and to know that I’m supported. Try that litmus test next time.
Male: Hi, great talk by the way. Being an entrepreneur in a start-up is obviously what most people think about when they think about entrepreneurship. Many large companies are failing to nurture entrepreneurship. You’ve worked in many large firms — Sony, Apple — which firms do you think are good at developing entrepreneur and what other observations… What would you consult if you were advising them to make entrepreneurship more accessible to larger companies?
Sonny Vu: That’s a great question. I’ve always been a big fan of Netflix. I think they do an amazing job of getting people to do things differently and to act nimbly. Also, I think Google is actually pretty good. They’re an amazingly fast company given their size. That’s why they are such an incredible company. Xiaomi too is also incredibly entrepreneurial in terms of what they expect from everybody. I think a lot of that is the DNA from their founders and the key management they they’ve gotten. Those companies have done an amazing job and they’re moving… Just to give you a sense, Xiaomi is about four years old, maybe five years old now and they’re worth over US$50bn. You think Uber grew fast? Not even close compared to Xiaomi and they did it with hardware which is unbelievable. They did it because they had small product teams and as we like to call it, we love being highly autocratic. Lots of small teams with enormous ownership and P&L responsibility, right down to the product owners. I think one of those things is just promoting a highly autocratic culture from a decision-making perspective. It’s hard to do and being okay with letting these teams fail.
Male: As an entrepreneur, you probably don’t have access to data for decision-making all the time. Do you trust your instincts and if you do, when do you know whether to go with it or not considering you had a failed start-up as well?
Sonny Vu: Well as we often say, “Let’s try to use data because if we’re going to go based on opinions, let’s go with mine.” We try to be as data-driven as possible but all of the time, you’re always lacking some form of data so having wise counsel is great. Yet at the end of the day, if you’re lean, you’re able to minimize the cost of experimentation and it’s okay to make mistakes as long as you do it quickly and recover quickly.
One of my favourite things I’ve heard about recently is, ‘Kill your darling ideas as fast as possible.’ Everyone’s got their little idea that they love right? Challenge it constantly. Astro Teller from Google X said that recently. I thought that was a really cool thing.
Male: Thank you very much for the presentation. Quick question about hiring. How do you recognise wisdom over experience?
Sonny Vu: I haven’t really figured it out yet but I do have some red flags that I look for. If I hear things like, “Well I’ve always done it this way, so I think that’s how we should do it,” without more context. The whole point of a start-up is you’re building something in a rapidly changing environment. If you had a long history that was incredibly predictable then experience is probably good because then you just have faster reaction time but when you’re inventing something new…
Presumably when you’re doing a start-up you’re doing something new, whether it’s a different product or a different business model or market or whatever, there’s going to be some unpredictable elements to it. Having the humility to say, “You know, I’ve done it this way for a long time, I’m not sure it’s going to actually work again. I’ll try it but it might be different.” Having a little bit of that helps. If I sense that there’s a complete lack of that, then I would probably dive a little deeper.
Female: One final question and then we’ll get to the puzzle.
Female: Hi, that was very exciting. You mentioned that the wearables space was full of hype right now. If you were actually to take the hype out of it, how do you think the wearables space will turn out in the next five years? Where do you think Misfit will be?
Sonny Vu: I don’t know if we’ll be doing wearables in the next five years. That’s why we took the word wearables out of our name. It’s just Misfit now. Like I said, the biggest changes that are going to happen and must happen is that these things need to be more useful. Just tracking your activity, buzzing when a text message comes in or timing my heart rate. I told my mum about heart rate monitoring technology and she said, “You know, if I knew what my heartrate was, the only thing it would probably do is raise it.”
It’s got to be more useful and relevant to life, so relevant that you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I forgot my smart watch, I have to go back and get it.” We can’t even imagine that right now. We can’t but if it replaced your wallet, your keys and was your medical ID all in one and all you had to take with you was your wearable instead of your wallet, that sounds pretty compelling. I’d probably turn around for that because I’d turn around for my wallet and my keys right? Create better use cases.
There are a lot of challenges to the wearables space. I think one of the big things that is assumed is battery life. That’s the bane of our existence. You’re now wearing something that first of all isn’t that useful, that you have to charge, that you’ve never had to charge in your life and so because we’ve never had to chare anything that we wear in our entire history as a species. I think overcoming battery issues, being more useful and being more wearable. A lot of stuff looks great. It can be really functional, really useful, but if it’s just ugly or uncomfortable, you’re not going to wear it.
Sonny Vu: Anyone with solutions? I see hands. How am I going to do this? I’ve got five things here. Let’s see here. I’ll give one Shine to a man and one to a woman. Okay, you’ve got a solution? Okay that’s one. I’m going to give out the prizes first. You can’t lift up your pen. You can’t have seen the solution before.
Male: How’s this? If you start in the middle.
Sonny Vu: You got it. My argument when I first saw this was that you could do one fat line but that didn’t fly. How about you?
Male: This one. You go from there, there and there.
Sonny Vu: That’s right. How about a female?
Female: I got the same as this guy but I also tried doing an M shape.
Sonny Vu: You got it. The solution… One more. How about you? I always say, “What’s more interesting than talking about wearables than to have one?”
Male: You extend the lines from vertical and horizontal.
Sonny Vu: You got it, last but not least. That’s the solution. It’s about thinking outside of the box. You have to go out of the box literally and connect the dots. Now that you’ve seen it, thank you so much. It was a real pleasure and an honour to be here.