Do You Have the Behavioral Aptitude for Vedic Astrology? A Guru Questions a Disciple from MIT

A Prologue by Dr. Richa Shukla (The Guru)

I have always given a very serious consideration to proper studentship (being a shishya) in the subject of Vedic astrology (Jyotish). I have taught more than 300 students in this subject. Almost all of them are working individuals in today’s professional and busy world and have rightfully a very practical mindset towards life. Nobody took up astrology as a first-choice career and they need not. This is similar/parallel to saying that not everyone becomes a sannyasi but has the right to practice/inculcate spirituality in their lives. However, every aspirant in this subject needs to have some bare minimum qualifications to give back to society in a useful and ethical manner once he/she completes an astrological education.

Consequently, I have always pondered on an all-important question to which I have my own opinion: how the basic aptitude of a student should be, who is a professional first in his day-to-day life, and who also wants to embark on his/her journey to learn Vedic astrology and use it to predict and time (human) events accurately enough for the benefit of mankind?

In order to satiate my curiosity, I tested/interviewed one of my students, Dr. Ranjan Pal, on a two-part oral examination (who had interviewed me months earlier 😊 — see Video).

This type of an examination is akin to the widely popular Cambridge Mathematical Tripos degree examination held by the University of Cambridge every year — the only difference being that my exam is oral in nature. Taking a cue from the Vedic traditions of oral dialogue between a Guru and his/her student, I judged Dr. Ranjan Pal on his behavioral (Part 1 — this article) and conceptual/predictive (Part 2) aptitudes for the subject of Jyotish. I consider both aptitudes equally important to be a good student.

Given that Ranjan answered exceptionally well (A+), I decided to share my questions and his answers with the public audience. Ranjan addresses me as Professor Shukla throughout his answering. It just looked to me that his mind was on a different frequency plane of thought while answering my questions — something way out of the ordinary.

Disclaimer by Richa Shukla: The questions that are discussed with my shishya, Dr. Ranjan Pal are less related to the pre-requisites to be a professional astrologer. They are more the pre-requisites in relation to being an effective student for years prior to taking up astrology as a profession and doing very well in it.

Questions (Testing Behavioral Aptitude)

1. Richa Shukla: Let me start with questions on your behavioral/mindset aptitude in Jyotish. You are a Professor/Researcher at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), USA. Historically, we have seen very few people (less than 2% of students) of your profession and intellectual stature getting into Vedic astrology, especially when you are from the west where the population is usually not a firm believer in this subject. What made you believe in this subject, and become my Shishya (student)?

Ranjan Pal: Professor Shukla, Vedic astrology is a very complex multi-parameter science in my opinion. Such is the complexity and the number of parameters in any single horoscope that it is impossible for the human mind to have knowledge of each of them to analyze a person and predict accurately about him/her on every query of the latter. Only sages with cosmic consciousness have complete knowledge of all these parameters and the complexity they weave. Consequently, it is only they (also known as Trikaldarshis) who can accurately predict everything about an individual (and even accurately lay down all the events of the past).

This ‘impossibility’, over centuries, have led (a) many of the skeptical ‘scientific intelligentsia’, both in India and in the west (including 100 odd Nobel Laureates who commented without knowing the subject), to not believe in the subject and dismiss it as `non-sense’ and at best nothing more than similar to flipping a coin to know the outcome of an event, (b) the average human around the world to consider it as sort of ‘witchy abracadabra’ that repeatedly offers hope only when they are in trouble. As you always say in class, in astrology 2 + 2 is not 4. It is actually not 4 because there is a strong element of uncertainty that humans need to account for that is derived from the lack of information and complexity mentioned above. Since most astrologers cannot effectively process that uncertainty, they predict/analyze 2 + 2 = 4, when actually it is 2(+1) + 2(+1) = 6 (the term in brackets is the unobserved uncertainty), and we expect the good astrologer to say 2 + 2 = 5 (if not 6).

In reality, the mathematical science is so strong in Vedic astrology that given limited information one (normal human) can accurately predict some (significant number) events with very high accuracy if one is very aware of the fundamental principles set down by the sages such as Parashara, Bhrigu, Jaimini etc. I personally have experienced this in my life through predictions given about me by a family astrologer in the past. It is my faith in Jyotish and the search for such principles and more importantly their non-faulty applications that drew me towards the subject of Jyotish.

I became your student (shishya, if you would want to call me) because I firmly believed (through your widely popular videos) you have a very strong logical foundation to teach the subject logically to a researcher at MIT 😊. I have studied this subject in secrecy and without any structured guidance for quite a few years since age 14/15, and taking my study karma, I hope to contribute to that < 2% of the global set students of astrology with an unshakeable logical foundation.

2. Richa Shukla: Before I start to get your views on the fundamental elements of astrological predictions, I want to ask you how you feel about the various astrology-centric books in the market these days? I know you read a lot (an integral duty of a student) and hence it is important I know your opinions on the books available (and their role in the ability to be a good predictor) to see whether your thought process is in the right direction.

Ranjan Pal: Professor Shukla, I appreciate your liking that I read books. Reading books is very important to master fundamentals AFTER the instructor in class conveys his/her viewpoints. He(r) discourse is primary. The action item here regarding book reading is three-fold: what to read (as there are too many books), how to read, and not to take the language of many modern Indian authors (most of them, not all) that seriously — they write very poorly (do not take enough effort to translate classics) and are misleading.

What to Read — Reading too much is a problem and leads you to think less and just ‘mug’ text. As Einstein once said, “Education is not about the learning of facts, it is about training the mind to think”. In this context reading many books by multiple authors, or in today’s Internet age, watching videos from multiple astrologers (analogue of reading) can only burden and confuse the mind. I have experimented this myself and can only say “read/watch less and think more”. I believe students should read ‘essential’ concepts from one classic (e.g., BPHS) and a modern master (e.g., B.V. Raman or S. C. Mishra). I have found this approach quite useful. I must admit here that I have found quite a few good books on the same concept, but each written differently based on the perceptions of the master who wrote the book. I must also mention here that an instructor should recommend which version of a classic is relatively more authentic than the others. As an example, I am personally of the opinion that BPHS should only be read in Hindi and that too versions by G. C. Sharma, G. D. Pathak, H. Majumdar, and S. Jha (and no English translation please — they are all mangled).

How to Read — I read your lecture notes first and try to absorb its essence — both in the class and after the class. I do not rote your lectures, and always try to form principles from concepts that allow me never to forget them. In addition, I try to assimilate what is being said by each master (from their books) after critical thinking and form my own thinking. However, I feel that reading one/two masters/sages is enough from my experience (in addition to your lecture notes) to build logic. Also, given our work sphere, that is the only time we can get. I solve my self-created problems and puzzles after your lectures and many of those goes into the homework assignments I co-design with you for your class.

Indian Authors Need Much Improvement — It goes without saying that the Indian authors (even the top and highly respected astrologers), especially those who write in English must either write clearly and complete an argument, or they should not write at all, or at the least give a disclaimer right up front on how incomplete their subconsciously-made arguments are and how a reader to perceive their arguments.

I will give two examples here Professor Shukla to back my statement. One is in the context of a very famous modern astrologer (an extremely renowned and respected astrologer in India and I respect the person deeply) who writes in a book that “In the D10, the 5th house indicates loss of a job”. This statement is very misleading and scary especially so when many beginner astrologers and students follow his/her books with utmost respect and will learn the wrong thing. It will be much nicer if he/she can put more effort and carefully say “In the D10, the 5th house though a trine house indicates a loss of a job (as it is 8th from the 10th house of D10), but given the strength of the 5th lord in the D10 and D1 charts and also planets in the 5th house, the loss could be getting a better job after resigning, or otherwise — after all it is the trine house of karma”. There are many instances of such in the person’s writing. Not that the person meant to write like that. Could be a publisher thing, but in the end the readers will take away what is said and apply that. I have seen your own students in course Whatsapp discussion groups get the incomplete meaning of this statement.

Take another example of the great and legendary late Shri Seshadri Iyer. In one of his books, he writes “if a planet in exalted in D1 but poorly placed (even if exalted) in D9 in trik houses, the good effects are of no avail.” Again, an example of misleading and incomplete writing. It is well known that D9 placements are important. However, the aspects in D9, dispositorships in D9 and their placements in D1, yogas formed in D9 with respect to this exalted planet in D9 becomes equally important to know to what avail the power of the exalted planet in D9 is realized. Astrology is not 0/1, so making such binary comments in a book as a legendary astrologer is misleading on logic and also on students who are blindly following such books. I understand writing in depth is hard and lengthy, but if you are publishing a book (as a legendary astrologer), you better make it complete everywhere like great western authors often do.

Hence, Professor Shukla I think I may have convinced you why Vedic astrology is ridiculed in the west and in top institutions like IITs and IIMs in India — without sound and granular logic, how do you expect to stir the minds of logical people in the world? In my opinion (among current authors), Dr. S. C. Mishra (great Sanskrit scholar), Shri Sanjay Rath, Shri K. S. Charak, and some ICAS authors write very well.

On your question of predictions, unfortunately, there is no good book in the market yet (and I doubt there will ever be), and there is a strong rationale for this. Making predictions is an art that is based on the concepts given by the sages and masters. It takes years to learn this art and no astrologer wilfully gives away such hard-earned secrets (and they should not also if they are in business). In addition, there are multiple ways to predict well — everything cannot be included in a book. Modern authors (not all of them) selling books in the market that advertise predictive prowess are misleading the audience in my opinion. The same goes for astrologers in popular coaching centres who say they will allow you to master predictive abilities in three years by giving degrees. If you need to predict well, you must be part of a “Guru-Shishya” parampara for years (e.g., examples of such existing ones include research students of Shri K. N. Rao and Shri Sanjay Rath) like any traditional Vedic science or classical Indian music. Alternatively, you can get the magical blessings of some brilliant unknown astrologer in a remote part of India (there are many) or any part of the world.

3. Richa Shukla: What is your lifestyle and work ethic as a student of Vedic astrology? Can you justify your activities in this area especially in relation to study habits, discipline, and ego management?

Ranjan Pal: Professor Shukla, this is a very ‘difficult’ set of questions I must say. I will start off with my lifestyle and then give you a peep on my work ethic in astrology.

Lifestyle — In terms of discipline, I do not physically have a sattwik lifestyle. I am not into deep dhyana, dharana, and yoga practices necessary of a traditional astrologer (simply because I do not want to be one). I am a Bengali who is proud of his rajasik diet based on fish/meat/eggs. On top of that there is the occasional wine and women (and their benefits :)) in my life with the added ruthless ‘strategies’ I deploy to beat cutthroat competition in my work sphere. Without these, life becomes monotonous to me. I have occasionally that typical ego in astrology when I am being able to predict something correctly for some friends and family when they approach me with a horoscope. I should be doing sadhana to compensate for this ego (for the sake of karma accumulation in future births), but I do not. I believe this ability to correctly predict at times comes from my intuition that can be astrologically justified by planetary catalysts on my 2/8 axis, but a sadhana is nonetheless needed even if I don’t harbor aspirations of being a professional.

However, I would like to believe that I am mentally pure (more sattwik than rajasik or tamasik) in terms of not taking advantage of anyone (especially in monetary terms when it comes to astrology), respecting women in body and mind (being from Bengal), being spiritually inclined without showing others, and not doing anything knowingly that may harm someone. Whenever I crossed these boundaries (and I have, quite a few times), God has shown me the right way via punishments and shaped my inner self. I meditate every day before work, and being doing it for many years, and in certain times in the past I have had two kundalini experiences (only rarely when I had a complete devotional and pure mind). I have Ketu in my eighth house (in the nakshatra of Jupiter) aspected by Saturn who aspects his own house so intuition and subject depth in me is inherently a blessing of God.

Work Motive and Ethic — I possibly have a unique motive as your student of Vedic astrology. I can safely and confidently say that among all your students, I may be the only one who does astrology as a problem-solving exercise in predictions. It is like revisiting problems in Physics from I.E. Irodov or problems in probability and calculus from an IIT JEE problem book and keeping note of time taken to solve any astrological puzzle. I have no astrologically professional motive. I am an applied mathematician by profession using probability theory, quantitative finance, statistics, game theory and algorithms in my daily research, and practicing astrology hones my mathematical and logical skills. Nothing less and nothing more. This unique motive is one of the reasons why I do not get into a set core ritualistic pattern of life everyday (like a traditional astrologer) and simply treat it like a science subject.

As part of work ethic, I write everything you say in the class. I understand them in real-time and usually do not have to go back and revise (though I see your class lecture video once). I go back and read a few textbooks on class topics and then think deeply about concepts in class while taking a leisurely round near a big lake in front of my house in the late evenings. I practice on a list of charts I have collected over many years (but will not share) and visit my own chart and some other family member charts every day to fine tune my understanding of the fundamentals.

I watch very few videos from multiple astrologers — not to confuse myself with so much information. I also do not join multiple parallel courses (not that others should not join — nothing against anyone). I think more on less amount of information. In my opinion, if I cannot solve prediction problems using logic that you teach in class and from books, it does not help me hopping lectures from multiple astrologers (without permission). Most astrologers on the Internet are here for business motives. That is not a problem at all, as many are leaders and discuss interesting topics. The thing is I like to stick to a single master teaching structured order of topics, irrespective of what is going on in the Internet space. Here, (to me I must emphasize) (a) watching multiple other astrologer videos, (b) joining parallel courses, or (c) repeating your course again after doing the basic course, BUT without getting depth in application logic to prediction puzzles is ‘stupid’ as doing so does not help increase problem-solving logic (you only keep on paying more and taking courses after courses) that one could build using one course by being focused on applying concepts taught in class.

I do not think I have any ego in my personal learning process. I always think I know less and need to work to know more. This has been one of the reasons I have been at this subject for quite a while. Whenever I find some good and clear analysis on a chart, I try to take positives out of it in terms of predictive principles. However, I am secretive — I only share with any other student only 5% of what I read/solve. Astrology is an occult science — not for show. If one has the ability to learn, then he/she should learn it himself and keep it to oneself (UNLESS one is a teacher imparting knowledge). At the same time, I try to keep astrology simple and logical for me. I respect people who know more than me and are usually reserved on the subject. I fear stupidity and cheap talk on the subject of astrology. Good students never talk much in public on knowledge as per Shri K. N. Rao and other renowned astrologers. Dr. B. V. Raman was very quiet, even being a legend.

4. Richa Shukla: I have observed you now for more than one year in three courses. I have hardly seen you ask questions in my class (unlike so many others), and when you are part of the social groups on Whatsapp, you are mostly having fun and giving terse answers to student queries (as a TA you relatively became more serious). Usually, students ask questions and are encourage to. Is there any justification behind this behavior? Is it the case you know most of what is being asked by other students? I mean you could be more vocal in class and with the students in the discussion groups.

Ranjan Pal: Professor Shukla, I am not traditionally trained or have the habit of asking questions in the class. My goal is to absorb what is being taught by the professor, and then go back home to revise, become more creative in thought, and ask questions to myself and find the answer myself. It strengthens my astrological logic that would not have been possible if I asked you my questions in class and got answers.

My behavior as a student here is like my engineering classes I have taken in my life in India and the USA where the professor used to just come to class, teach, and go. No student (even the smartest ones) including me (there were many, much better than me) ever asked questions. It is true that there are questions I would want to ask the instructor, but they do not come to my mind in the class. I am slow. In addition, I do not want to take your usually very busy time outside class to ask you questions. I try to find the answer myself via books and self-thought to improve my logic. One must be patient and hard-working to get answers in this subject. It takes years at times. It is also true that I know most of what is being asked in class by other students, but they are very basic questions. Most of these answers are in a standard well written astrology textbook or is easy to an engineer with structured mathematical thinking.

In the discussion groups, as a TA I adopt your philosophy of not to spoon feed students. My goal is to provide a very concise pointer to the students so that they can think ahead and find the correct answer and/or logic all by themselves. By discussing too much with students (I could), I do not think I will be helping them sharpen their critical thinking skills. This would be very selfish of me to do so. One problem with multiple of your students (and some of your old students also) in discussion groups is that they ask too much when they cannot guarantee whether a discussed point by others is correct leading to misinformation — they feel it is a discussion, but it is mostly (not all) noise.

I must add to this that I am not fond of large discussion groups. It is a thing in the age of Whatsapp and should be avoided by students to encourage self-learning, critical thinking, and most importantly to not confuse other students with partial knowledge. Groups should be external to DevJyotish faculty and staff and small in size to promote good learning. If anyone has any right to give detailed answers in any large astrology forum (e.g., course main group), it should be you. Students cannot be trusted, not because they may or may not be knowledgeable but in a subject of uncertainty and misinformation, it is wise that only a Guru addresses the public. As once, I was talking to a fellow student in your class, we were jokingly discussing how for the ultra-enthusiastic big group discussions, our stance usually is “Om Ignoraye Namah” to save ourselves from misinformation😉. We respectfully pulled in some senior students and asked them to contribute, and we in a relieving manner stayed away from them, though there is some good information also being passed around at rare times.

5. Richa Shukla: OK, now an important question about your investing time in my courses. What is your end goal of being my student? How are you working towards that goal?

Ranjan Pal: I have absolutely no professional goal in astrology though I want to be really logically good in this subject, and I am confident about it. I simply do not have the moral outlook to be a professional. However, I must admit that from my D1, D9, and D60, I do have vidyabal (you discussed this in class) and also a form of Vaksiddhi Yoga. These are bare necessities (along with Dharma trikon principles you discussed in class for astrologically strategic houses) to do professional astrology. Without an intense astrological sadhana, even with feasible speech-intellect combinations in my chart, I will incur bad karma on me if I become a professional. I am here to excel in my primary profession and having two professions does not help here. I am destined to be a professor/researcher in engineering sciences and management — not to become an astrologer.

I said before that I simply do astrology to hone my mathematical and logical skills (and your presence in this matter helps a lot) that feed into my profession as a researcher, and I can keep doing this for life (maybe). In this process, my engineering/business research mind also rubs on astrology learning to make me better in the subject (and vice versa). One thing to note is that I have Ketu in House 8 aspected by Saturn (aspecting his house). Hence, I was probably an astrologer in a past birth, so I need not work hard or be obsessed with the subject — it will automatically come to me.

You are very smart and teach really well (great teacher) and especially the difficult concepts, and so that is what I look for in a teacher of any subject. You offer courses in a linear fashion and that is unique I believe. In other words, your courses follow the best logical order of learning the subject without deviating into special topics here and there. Without the grasp of fundamentals of astrology (which could be introductory or advanced) it is of little use to do a spread of topics that are not on the “main road” of predictive astrology. I feel with you as my teacher; by doing less I can expand my mind more. I am very focused. On this note, I would like to say that your Maha Jyotish Course and the Nakshatra Course is more than enough to get a very strong foothold on the subject of Vedic astrology to see horoscopes of people and predict to a respectable ability. At least, I understand what you say in class and do not have to go back and work very hard. Everything is mostly clear. I just practice problems at home to build logic.

Finally, I would like to say that Jyotish is a combination of scientific and structured thinking, and intuition (that is nothing but derived from art and spirituality). With a structured effort one can really get the scientific part working for himself/herself (with a lot of years of practice). However, the intuition part is pure blessings driven and your past karma, you can only do what your capacity is in this birth.

6. Richa Shukla: What are the immediate roles a student (even including you) could take up in astrology after completing my Maha Jyotish Course. Tying things back to a possible career in professional astrology for some students, what is your opinion on the tradeoff between pay economics of professional astrology and the noble nature of the profession that aspires for social welfare?

Ranjan Pal: Professor Shukla, let me start with me. One role for me who studies Jyotish only to hone logic can invest in an academic research role, apart from doing Jyotish for ONLY close friends and family. My goal is to see that the structured thinking approach in Vedic astrology is strengthened for students via a rigorous problem-solving approach (like in physics and mathematics). If you cannot solve problem, you cannot predict on charts. It is as simple as that. You and I are working towards this, and we will see how far we can go in being the first ‘pair’ in India to inculcate structured prediction problem solving in students.

To the best of my knowledge, from surveys of students enrolled in other courses in the country, the rigorous path to astrological problem-solving is lacking (though other courses also have problems for students to solve — they are too simple to even think of predictions). There is too much bias in accumulating knowledge compared to applying that knowledge to solve problems that will eventually give one confidence to predict in the real world. I see most of your students in your class as knowledge-gathering junta, and not application junta. In other words, the much-desired structured thinking approach and replicability of prediction logic is strongly missing in students. The usual approach among students (including those in your courses) is a casual browsing of charts and then spurting out predictions with ‘random’ logic, and that leads to no good in developing replicable prediction logic sustainable over time. I along with your support envision to change this approach by re-instating a structured and replicable problem-solving approach in the general astrology course (not in the special ones) in DevJyotish.

In my opinion, if there is anyone in your class who wants to take up astrology consulting as a profession, he/she should do it as a full-time job. This is very necessary. One cannot put two legs on two boats. Astrology will not work for him/her. Forget the great astrologers (Shri K. N. Rao and Dr. B. V. Raman), even the good ones have renounced their job (or retired) to take up astrology full-time (e.g., yourself, Shri V. P. Goel, Pandit Sanjay Rath, etc.). On top of all this, one needs the divine blessings of a revered Guru to practice astrology professionally. One can have all the training but without the blessings of many good Gurus/divine beings, one will not be successful in this art. Zoom pe baithke 50% hi aayega. I would also like to say that some students in your course can only study this birth and become a professional astrologer next birth (sounds funny, but I do not mean it in a negative way). They started quite late (based on their karma) and if they are passionate and keep on going in right direction, they will be very successful in subsequent births (again a direct application of karma theory).

You have asked a very relevant question on the tradeoff between the economics of professional astrology and the nobility of the profession. My opinion is that you cannot be a non-professional astrologer in this day and age unless you restrict your client set to friends and family. A full-time astrologer charging less, or no money carries no value in society and does not signal good knowledge or experience (this is basic signalling theory in market economics — your price is your market value). The exceptions are legends like Dr. B. V. Raman and Shri K. N. Rao — but you have to be a legend first. Yes, you can still earn a few lakhs every year by charging less by being an average astrologer, but you will never get the required leverage or fame to draw good clients to you for years and years.

There are skeptics who might argue otherwise and say that astrology has become a business and is gradually losing its “noble” shine due to the big market.

As a first, let me re-assure these skeptics that in the Prasna Tantra and Prasna Marga (classics in Vedic astrology), it is mentioned (I got this information from the legendary astrologer Shri Gayatri Vasudev in one of her books) that astrologers in the olden days used to be bestowed with flowers, fruits, and gold coins by the kings (governments) for their service. This is nothing but a fee given for their service. So, a market existed even then, but it was small and for the really knowledgeable astrologers.

Second, the market is not going away 😊 (so the skeptics can relax) and I do agree to some extent that the shine is losing out, but that is not because of the existence of a market. It is the due to the mismatch in (a) the pricing offered and the quality of the astrologers, and (b) the standard of clients matching with the right type of astrologers. More specifically, astrologers find it difficult to know their quality (fair problem) and either overprice or underprice with respect to their quality.

In addition, many clients irrespective of their status in society (in the hope of minimizing their cost on this uncertain science/art) end up with consulting the wrong astrologers and spread a bad word in society. Thus, the existence of a market is not the problem! The problem is the existence of a poorly matched demand-supply market among clients and service providers.

The only solution to this problem is a regulated market (by the government) but we do not see it happening soon. The concept of this regulated market is pricing tiers matched with the grade of the astrologer (say A, B, etc…). The grade-pricing combo should be regulated by the government in a private/public partnership.

About the Authors

Ranjan Pal is a computer scientist, decision scientist, and an applied mathematician who is on the faculty of the MIT Sloan School of Management, USA, where he leads research in cyber-security management within service enterprises and their ecosystems. He is a non-professional practicing astrologer, an ardent follower of Vedic philosophy, and is a research student of Vedic astrology under Richa Shukla — Founder of Dev Jyotish school of astrology, Gurgaon, India.

Richa Shukla is a professional astrologer based in Gurgaon (Gurugram), India with over 20 years of practice experience. Her illustrious clientele ranges from normal civilians to politicians, corporates, and Indian administrative officers. She is the Founder and lead faculty member of the Dev Jyotish school of astrology and was a student of Vedic astrology under K. N. Rao at the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Institute of Astrology, New Delhi, India.