Conversation with John, a Liberal

I originally posted an article on Facebook and commented-
Kass points out that we become mute on our issues when they benefit us. So Trump celebrated leaks that put Clinton in a bad light, and now complains of the leaks that undid Flynn. Liberal Democrats once worried about intelligence agencies spying on private citizens- which is what happened to Flynn. It reminds me of the outrage directed at G.W. Bush over drone strikes which outrage disappeared when President Obama increased them.

John Kass — Where Have All the Liberal Democrats Gone?
What happened to liberal Democrats, and their concerns about civil liberties and government surveillance of American citizens?
TOWNHALL.COM

Don (Friend of mine)- 1. Agreed let’s be consistent, the leak matters and so does the behavior the leak exposes.
2. The Flynn revelation came because intelligence community was listening to the Russian Ambassador, not because Flynn was the target. Flynn should have known the ambassador is under constant surveillance
Yesterday at 4:43pm

John (Friend of Don’s posting on my wall) — Kass has no credibility. He pretends to be a moralist. He spent the last 8 years slamming Obama at every turn. His only agenda is to be anti-progressive, especially when it comes to social issues. For him to support Trump, who is neither conservative or moral is the height of hypocrisy.
Yesterday at 5:27pm

Richard Zeile replied · Well, you kind of prove the point that when people we trust do stuff, we let it go, but when people we don't trust do the same things, we use it against them.

John- I prove no such thing. There is right and there is wrong. There is moral behavior and there is amoral behavior. Perhaps you’ve lost your moral compass. Your defense of a vile and amoral leader is troubling. Notwithstanding your defense of an illegitimate and amoral leader, you’re simply wrong on the facts, as is Kass. The eavesdropping of American citizens you so belatedly vocalize your contempt for never happened.
Yesterday at 10:34pm 

Richard Zeile- I don’t recall defending any leader in the original post or the comment. But clearly you have an ax to grind, sir.
Yesterday at 10:37pm

John- No ax at all. Other than the ax of an American who sees the first real threat to our Democracy since World War 2. So please don’t be coy and pretend. We don’t have time for conservatives who have lost perspective and acquiesce to an authoritarian regime in Washington.
Yesterday at 10:45pm

Richard Zeile — My, my, you’d think this administration was going to change the definition of marriage or something! Where were you during the last administration? What was your moral evaluation of it?
14 hrs

John- Richard Zeile, I was actively advocating for the issues I care about. Like marriage equality, healthcare for all Americans, improving income inequality, compassion for immigrants, things like that.
14 hrs

Richard Zeile- I see. Then you were offended that I suggested moral equivalence between the Right and the Left, when in your view, the Right is vile and amoral. OK, I get where you are coming from.
13 hrs

John-
You clearly have no idea where I’m coming from. If you equate 45 [President Trump] with “the right” you’ve already failed to grasp the issue. He is an amoral, vile, misogynistic, xenophobic, racist tyrant who has allowed white supremacist sympathizers into the chain of command. Big difference than simple ideological or policy differences between left or right. What’s worse, many people look to faith leaders [John knows that I am a Lutheran minister] for guideposts in times like these. I’m disappointed where yours points to.
13 hrs

Richard Zeile-
Folks who see life and judge others in Moral/Amoral categories are frequently disappointed (when they are not deluded). As to whether I “know where you are coming from,” my experience with folks on the Right gives me some idea: name-calling, jumping to conclusions, either/or categorizations. Yes, I’m pretty familiar with where you are coming from.
 9 hrs

Richard Zeile-
As to equating 45 with the Right, I did not support him until he became the party candidate, and I must admit that I am pleased and surprised at many of his cabinet and court choices. These are, if anything, “of the Right.”
9 hrs

Richard Zeile-
BTW, explain to me the moral significance of income inequality.
9 hrs

John-
You’re ridiculous assertions are becoming tiresome. Most of them are among the most unqualified group of people to occupy their offices. Take for example, Betsy DeVoss. She is clearly devoid of the requisite background to guide national education policy. She abhors public education, and is a political hack whose sole qualification for this position is her prolific donations to GOP candidates. Literally tens of millions. Senator Sanders hit the nail on the head when he asked the clueless nominee if she really thinks she’d be here if she hadn’t donated millions. 45 committed to drain the swamp including of Wall Street influence, than appoints 19 ex- Goldman Sachs executives to run various departments.
9 hrs

John- If you don’t know the moral significance of income inequality I’d suggest you’re either joking, or lack a basic understanding of the gospels you claim to proclaim.
9 hrs

Richard Zeile- I am glad you brought up Betsy DeVos, for I have observed her work for the last 25 years in Michigan. She has been a tireless champion of inner-city and other disadvantaged children, and given generously to their causes. She has promoted charter schools and school choice making public education responsive to children’s needs. She has been so effective in this that the proportion of Michigan children in public schools has gone up significantly since her policies have been implemented. Clearly, she is effective in the area of educational policy which is why her opponents are so frightened of her. (No one is frightened of an incompetent). Might you concede that I, as Co-President of Michigan’s State Board of Education, might know a little more than you do about Betsy DeVos?
9 hrs

Richard Zeile- You know, I seem to recall that Mr. Obama had a number of Wall Street executives in his cabinet as well, including one who hadn’t paid his taxes. And it is even more curious that the bulk of Wall Street money went to Mr. Obama’s campaign in 2012, and to Mrs. Clinton’s campaign in 2016. But then I do not hold any particular prejudice against Wall Street. Tell me again the moral significance of income inequality…
9 hrs

John-
Perhaps you do. And you may want to consider relinquishing your post and letting someone lead that believes in quality accessible public education vs creating a private education for profit industry. Your experiment in Charters has been a resounding disappointment. The kids stuck in the inner cities of Detroit need access to quality local schools vs charters where test scores and outcomes are at best, on par with public schools, at best. In fact most of the charters in Michigan score lower than state averages in math and reading. 
9 hrs 

John- Also — if you’d like to debate try sticking to the points raised. You truly see no moral imperative to do something about income inequality?
9 hrs

John- Mr Obama appointed qualified folks to cabinet positions. He never claimed to drain the swamp of Wall Street executives. He and all his appointees released their federal income taxes, had to sign the most stringent ethics requirements of any administration in history. And he led a scandal free administration. Your guy is an ethically challenged racist.
9 hrs 

John-
So being a racist wasn’t a deal breaker for you. Good to know.
9 hrs

John- If you don’t know the moral significance of income inequality I’d suggest you’re either joking, or lack a basic understanding of the gospels you claim to proclaim.
9 hrs

Richard Zeile- I recall an incident in the Gospels where a man called on Jesus to make his brother share the inheritance with him, and received a stern warning about covetousness. While income inequality may seem like a justice issue, too often it is an ENVY issue. If you envy the wealthy, your soul is in danger.

8 hrs

Richard Zeile- As to charter performance in Michigan. You may not realize it but state law requires identifying the lowest performing schools in the state. If a school is on the list 3 years in a row, it is slated for closure. 36 public schools are on the list this year and only 2 charter schools. You may be unaware that more Detroit residents choose charter schools for their children than choose the traditional public school. That was a good thing for them because 24 of the schools slated for closure are Detroit Public schools, and only one of them is a Detroit charter school. BTW, the Obama administration was very supportive of charter schools. That must have been frustrating for you.
9 hrs

Richard Zeile — You claim that the Obama administration was scandal free, and yet I recall the Secretary of the Treasury who failed to pay his taxes, and a Secretary of State who violated national security regulations by having classified documents on a private email server. Some of this material turned up on a laptop used by her aide’s husband in his sexting activities…
8 hrs

John- Neither were scandals. Geitner inadvertently forgot to pay 30k in taxes, and Clinton did nothing illegal. Don’t forget Benghazi and the fact that Obama was born in Kenya. Get real. I’m done wasting my time with you.
8 hrs


Richard Zeile- You say my guy is “an ethically challenged racist.” Aren’t all racists ethically challenged, or are you just being redundant here? And if “my guy” is a racist, why would Dr. Ben Carson, a man who overcame poverty and racism to become a noted neuro-surgeon and cabinet member endorse 45 early on? (Carson was my original “guy,” then I shifted to Cruz. We Republicans tend to be rather color blind as to whom we support in favor of policies we believe in).
8 hrs

John- I just found the device on FB where I can block your posts. Made my day. Good luck. Glad my kids aren’t in Detroit schools.
8 hrs

Richard Zeile- I see that I have embarrassed John with too many facts.

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