Interviewing Inclusively

A blog from the perspective of interviewee and interviewer,
for National Inclusion Week September 2021

Co-authored by Clare Hussey and Robbie Cross

Clare’s perspective

In the last 5 years I have been working as a User Researcher in the Digital Delivery space at HMRC. In 2018, I was diagnosed with dyslexia, 12 years after I’d completed my Design PhD. This was quite a surprise, but on reflection explained why I felt challenged (disabled under the social model) by certain situations in the past.

My blog is about a recent experience I’ve had doing a job application. I say my blog, I’m pleased to say that this is a co-authored blog, by me and the post holder, Robbie, who was forming a new team within Operational Excellence.

I’m writing and sharing this, as the whole experience has been exceptional, in a good way. I hope to help postholders understand the importance of making and supporting requests for reasonable adjustments, for a person with dyslexia and other neurodivergent conditions within interviews.

Image to represent 100 people, men and women. 15 of the people are shown in a different colour, this is to show the proportion of society that has a neurodivergent condition

Explaining the terms

Read my blog on Understanding neurodiversity and neurodivergence.

Applying for roles using civil service jobs

I have been trying to change my job for a while, so have had quite a bit of experience in trying to interpret what the post holder needs to understand. I try my best to address all the variations of required behaviours, writing personal statements or statements of suitability.

As with many of us, and particularly those that are neurodivergent, this can be challenging. Although I have a many different examples to draw upon, through former work in private and public sector, working for myself, as well as my civil servant and voluntary work. However, I often struggle to align my experiences with the requirements of role, which makes me feel like a square peg in a round hole.

I think it’s important to acknowledge the support network I have around me, without their help and encouragement the whole process would overwhelm me.

How did you first meet Robbie?

I use Twitter and, unbeknownst to him, I’ve followed Robbie for a couple of years.

One morning in June, I’d checked my daily civil service email alerts, and noticed an advert for Lead Reference Architect. I did not really understand what that meant, so I had a quick skim, thought it’s not for me.

It must have been a day or so later, scrolling down my Twitter feed, and seeing a screenshot of this unusual job title, I realised Robbie must be the post holder.

I now understand that a trait of my dyslexia is to take things literally, so when I read ‘Where a candidate has a gap(s) in an area, we would expect them to demonstrate a willingness to learn and develop their skills’ I reached out to have a conversation about the role. This is something I always try to do, as I get more of a feel for the role when it’s explained to me. It’s also great to chat with enthusiastic post holders, who are keen to get the right people into their posts.

After the conversation, I felt although the role was different from those I’d previously done, there were aspects of my experience that aligned with Robbie’s intentions/ambitions for his new team. I decided to apply.

The screenshot within the Tweet is part of a job application, it reads: “Please note — we do not expect applicants to have all of the criteria. Where a candidate has a gap(s) in an area, we would expect them to demonstrate a willingness to learn and develop their skills. If you are unsure if you meet all of this criteria, but are passionate about the job that we have described, please consider applying anyway and explain why you are keen to be considered”.

Understanding the Disability Confident Scheme (DCS) and asking for reasonable adjustments

For those who don’t have any form of disability, you might not have seen, or needed to acknowledge this section of civil service jobs.

First, the applicant is asked:

Do you feel that you meet the criteria and would like to apply under the Disability Confident Scheme (DCS)?

For me, I’m very comfortable answering ‘Yes’ to this question. However, I know this is a regular point of discussion in the neurodivergent community, as some people do not identify as having a disability. Personally, I know that the process of the application and interview makes me feel dis-abled due to the way my brain works.

There is then a section called ‘Assistance required’. I’m going to briefly explain what they mean to me.

Will you require a reasonable adjustment during the interview/assessment stages?

There is some hint text shown: For instance, you may require wheelchair access at interview

I answer yes to this, but I suspect that might be considered off-putting to those who are neurodivergent or have a hidden disability.

Your reason for requiring an adjustment

Again there is hint text: Provide details of disabilities or conditions we should be aware of — these details will enable us to support you.

I have an answer, that is within the 250 word character limit, which I’ve honed over a number of applications which is included for all my applications.

Relatively recently diagnosed with dyslexia, a particular challenge I face is poor working memory, this intensifies in stressful situations, such as interviews. The impact of poor working memory is difficulty in recalling details, such as examples.

It’s quite a peculiar position to be in, to express areas where you feel challenged, and need help, but again I feel that it is important to include this to inform those sifting and interviewing.

There are two further questions, which are shown below with my answers.

Outline the adjustment that may help?

1. Seeing interview questions in advance. I’d appreciate as much time as possible, one hour as a minimum. This adjustment removes the memory test from interviews, giving me time to consider which pre-prepared example best fits your question, helping keep my answers on topic.
2. Remove stipulation of time limits for answers during the interview, to make allowances for my natural/inherent storytelling style.

Detail adjustments that have previously been provided (optional)

I have another answer that I use in my applications.

Interviews for policy and digital posts, cross-government employers provided questions in advance. This helps minimise anxiety caused when retrieving answers from memory. I felt I was better able to bring myself to the interviews.

Getting through the sift

For me, I am always a bit amazed when I’m shortlisted for interview, so I was delighted when the invitation to email came through two weeks before the interview date.

From my previous experience, the next part of the interview process is to reach out to civil service human resources, and then often the departmental human resources team, to make sure any request for reasonable adjustments has been taken into account. A week before the interview, I had it in my head to do that.

I was very surprised to receive an email from Robbie, where he was proposing how he planned to address my requests for reasonable adjustment. It was very well considered, he’d outlined his thoughts against each point, then asked for my thoughts.

Robbie’s thought process (as recruiting manager)

As a civil servant for twelve years, I’ve been a panel member in many recruitment exercises, as a panel member, sifter, and independent. This was the first one I fully ‘owned’.

When candidates contact you prior to an interview

From my perspective I’m always delighted when someone reaches out to talk about a role, it makes a really good impression and can help people realise a job is not for them before they spend all that time applying!

Was this your first time interviewing someone who is neuro-divergent?

Probably not, but it was the first time I knew about it and was asked to provide reasonable adjustments.

What did you do when you saw a candidate had asked for an adjustment?

A load of faffing around, I looked at a bunch of guidance, spoke to a couple of colleagues about the approach to take and went to google too. Some of it was a little bit useful but I genuinely didn’t feel any further forward.

One of the things I was struggling with was how to support Clare and give her a fair opportunity without disadvantaging the other five candidates.

How did you get past your “faffing”?

Like most things in life, a good night’s sleep.

I woke up the next day and had a bit of a ‘ah-ha’ moment, was it really a big deal to share questions in advance? My logic went like this: the job I was recruiting for would rarely require someone to answer a question immediately that they didn’t already know, so why would it make sense for me to test that at interview? If an interview is about assessing someone’s suitability for the job, then make the interview test the skills you need in the actual job.

So that was:

Decision 1

I’ll share the behaviour questions in advance, not just to Clare, but to all the candidates.

What about the strengths questions?

Yeah that was a tricky one, strengths is about getting someone’s gut reaction, so in this instance I didn’t want to share the question in advance. But what I did think of doing was sharing the ‘Strengths’ I was planning on assessing with Clare in advance. A half-way house.

And the timings?

Clare had asked for time limits to be removed, I was concerned if I just left the interview open-ended it would unfairly disadvantage the other candidates. I wanted to put some sort of limit on it but was unsure what to do, and then I had a second ‘ah-ha’ moment which should have been blindingly obvious:

Decision 2

Ask Clare what she thinks of my proposed adjustments, and my concern around an open ended timing and ask her what has worked for her in the past

(note — when an adjustment request comes through it is a stark, bare line in an email from HR, it’s hard to get any nuance).

(you can read Robbie’s response at the bottom of the blog post)

My reaction to Robbie’s response

It was like a revelation! Especially as I am a user researcher, I was amazed that someone had thought to ask me about my needs.

Decision 1

Robbie made was to share the questions with all panel members, five days in advance! I was more than happy for other candidates to see the questions too, as I’m a firm believer an interview should not be a memory test.

To many of you reading this, the idea of sharing questions might sound ridiculous, but the sense of relief I felt knowing I had five days was immense. I knew I could think through questions when my brain was calm, forming a coherent story that aligned with the relevant Behaviour.

Decision 2

If you recall, one of the issues I particularly struggle with is time. I’d realised this in a previous interview where the interviewer had clearly stated ‘there will be 7 minutes per question’. I remember thinking, how will I stick to time, knowing that the way I respond to questions, I inadvertently provide context, and even when I try so hard not too, go off point, in a way a panel member would struggle with.

Robbie’s proposal for open ended timing was great, we even agreed that once this was confirmed in an email, timings would not even be mentioned during the interview.

Once we’d agreed on the proposed adjustment, an email was sent to all candidates to explain about the questions being shared in advance. My thoughts as a researcher, I would really like to understand how the other candidates felt about this.

So what did Clare say about the open ended timing?

I’m so glad I asked, because it helped me understand that the request around timing was more about the interviewer saying, ‘you have 7 minutes for this bit’ than the time limit itself. She totally understood the balance I was trying to strike between supporting her and ensuring equity for all the candidates.

Robbie’s takeaways and advice for other people seeking to be an inclusive interviewer

A couple of things:

1. If someone asks for reasonable adjustments then open up a dialogue with them, it’s the fastest way to a mutually beneficial solution
2. Try and shed off the feeling of “that’s not how interviews ‘should’ be — there’s loads of different ways to interview, which leads me to the last point;
3. Be laser focussed on what the role you are recruiting for requires, and try to only ask for those things that role really needs. For example, if a person needs to be able to present, don’t make it a requirement, include a presentation as part of the interview.

Do not be constrained by how you have been interviewed previously. It’s your job, you probably want the best person for it, so test the skills you need for the actual job you’re advertising — it will I think help you get a much better, more diverse set of candidates.

And did Clare get the job?

I’ll let her answer that — but the question should be did she feel she got a fair crack at it? I hope she’d say yes.

Clare’s final thoughts

On this occasion, I didn’t get the job.

However, I feel that I went into the interview suitably prepared and as relaxed as I could be. I did have a fair chance, and because of the adjustments I was able to be myself.

It might surprise some of you to know, I’m quite pleased I wasn’t successful.

The importance of feedback

For the first time when applying for a civil service role I was called, in person by Robbie, to give me the news. During this brief conversation we agreed to have a follow-up chat for feedback.

It turns out, one of the key aspects of this role would have been analysis of large data sets. This is something I can do, but it’s not one of my strengths — I prefer to work with analysts that love analysis, and I like to help them to form the compelling stories based on the findings.

We had a frank exchange about this, agreeing that the fundamental role of the interview, is to find out if the person is the right one for the job. If I had been successful, I probably would have struggled in the role, and not enjoyed it. I much prefer to be happy in a job, and do something where I can use my strengths.

The post interview conversation had been another great part of this experience, I’d recommend to any post holder to make the effort, where they can do this. I used it as a learning experience, to help me improve for the next time.

Clare’s takeaways and advice for other people seeking to be inclusively interviewed

• Interviewers to be open to requests for adjustments — or better, include by design
• Invite dialogue with applicant — do not hide behind the process and systems
• Instigate a follow-up contact for feedback

Appendix: Robbie’s response

I’m really keen to make sure you (and all the candidates) get the best opportunity to give their best on the day. Can you look at what I am proposing below and see if you are content with what I am suggesting and answer the questions I’ve asked:

Sharing behaviour questions 5 days in advance (that would mean you would see them tomorrow)

Sharing the strengths we will be assessing in advance, but not the specific questions — the rationale for this is that part of the assessment criteria for strengths is about assessing candidates gut reactions to the question asked, I’ve tried to find a middle way which will hopefully help you prepare whilst still maintaining the integrity of the strengths approach.

Re: time limits — other candidates will have approximately 50mins for the interview which generally breaks down into 5–7mins per behaviour and 1–2mins per strength question. I am happy to extend the time you have available, but can’t leave it entirely open-ended. Do you have a particular extension in mind / something that has worked in the past for you? (For example 50% more time).

Finally, you don’t mention it in your special requirements, but is there anything you require re: follow up questions? We don’t ask follow ups for strength questions, but on behaviours we’ll often ask questions to help candidates hit areas of the behaviour they might have missed — the difficulty here I suspect will be that we don’t know what follow up we’ll ask until after you’ve given your response. Again would be interested in your thoughts and whether you’ve found a way around this in the past?

Hopefully that makes sense and happy to work with you to figure out the best way forward.