Believing Bob Lazar — Part II — A Consistent Story?
Note: This article is not Part II of the story published Tuesday February 22, 2022 titled “Bob Lazar: There’s more to the Story”
Link to Part One
“He hasn’t varied his story. He might have changed the way he says things, in terms of the words he chooses, but the actual story is exactly the same as he was telling a long time ago.” — Joe Rogan
Similar words have been spoken by many who have heard Lazar’s story over the years, including investigative reporter George Knapp.
In this article, I will be examining the oft made claim that Bob Lazar’s story has remained consistent since he first began telling it in 1989.
Consistency in one’s story is one of the prime arguments used to add credence to a story as people recalling their own memories do not usually change significant details.
Some of the changes described here are substantial, some of the changes less so, but they are changes that would be strange to make if recalling details from experienced based memory.
I have spent dozens of hours cross referencing the many interviews Bob Lazar has given since 1989. There is virtually no part of Lazar’s story in which details do not change from year to year and interview to interview. The below examples are just a small sampling of the changes in Lazar’s story over the years, and there will be additional articles in the future highlighting more of them.
One of the important claims both Bob and those around him make continually is that he was not interested in the subject of UFO’s generally before working at S4 and thus had no reason to falsify his story. The reason why this is held out to increase his credibility is clear, the UFO community has a history of people who had a pre-existing belief and interest in UFOs and aliens who later happened to have experiences that aligned with their already held beliefs.
There is a good deal of evidence that Bob had an intense interest in the UFO subject in the months leading up to his purported employment at S4, and most of that evidence is Bob’s own words and documentation.
George Knapp interviewed Lazar extensively in the months before he appeared on the On The Record program that Knapp hosted. Knapp was well aware of Lazar’s pre-existing interest in UFOs. Knapp refers to Lazar’s interest multiple times throughout the interview, though Lazar downplays it.
GK: Before you got into the program at S4 though, you had an interest in UFOs. It must be hard for people to swallow that here’s a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the program.
BL: Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to
several places, and I wanted to get back into the scientific
field again. Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear and read
some of his material. And initially, I thought he was just
absolutely crazy. But apparently, he did have a good source of
information because, as it turns out, some of the information
that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.
However, this “simultaneous” timeline of events is contradicted by another highly detailed interview Lazar gave to fill out his story to a screenwriter for the film he was working on with New Line Cinema. That interview in its entirety can be found at this link. In this interview, Bob is looking at his own calendar and describes every entry and its meaning.
A necessary note — Gene Huff describes meeting John Lear in “mid-1988” and John Lear describes meeting Huff and Lazar in “Summer of 1988.” The circumstances of their meeting was tied to UFOs.
They made arrangements — in lieu of payment, John would share some copies of UFO videos and other material related to the subject. Gene called to ask me if I was interested in going. He said that I could pose as his assistant. Of course, I’d heard of John and his exploits as a pilot, so I agreed to go.
Excerpt From: “Dreamland: An Autobiography.”
The first significant date Bob describes in the interview is a visit by his friend Joe Vaninetti on September 7th 1988, and the entry includes a note about the length of the drive to Area 51. Bob’s explanation is that the note about the distance is placed on that entry for an unknown reason or to be “intentionally” deceiving. A source who was told about the trip at the time has confirmed that Lazar and Vaninetti travelled to Area 51 and reported seeing lights in the sky in September of 1988 — three months before Lazar claims he was approached for the position at S4.
September 7th, 1988:
Joe — the guy I knew and worked with in Los Alamos — came to visit. And left on the 10th.
[Groom Lake = 125 miles] This is just a mileage note. It doesn’t occur on this date — it’s a note to myself how far the drive was… that was one of my excursions up there. There will be some deceiving stuff on the calendar intentionally. We’ll run into other stuff like this.
On October 4th, Lazar describes a calendar entry that appears to denote a meeting with John Lear.
October 4, 1988
[John Lear at 8pm] What’s happening here is that I’m trying to show that I knew John Lear from a long time ago.
The next relevant entry is October 14.
October 14, 1988
[UFO Cover-up] This is actually on that date — at Shelly’s with Jim. This was interesting. And Jim will recall this day. He came over. Now before this, I didn’t know who John Lear was and had an article in the paper about some guy who said the aliens are here and they’re taking over and all that stuff and is giving lectures at the library. Jim brought it over and showed it to me. Jim was thinking about going there and wanted to know if I wanted to go with him. I told him he was crazy and what a total waste of time. And he said, “Well, I’m going to go” and I said, “Okay, fine”. He said, “Why don’t you come over tonight cause the guy’s going to be on TV?”
It was some special that was on TV about people being abducted and stuff like that. I don’t remember exactly what was going on in there. But John was telling his normal UFO story. And there were a couple of other people — you know, “I’ve been abducted”.
John Lear does not appear in the “UFO Cover Up? Live!” show described here. Bob is conflating two separate events to place his meeting John Lear later than he actually did. Jim Tagliani did, in fact, invite Lazar to attend John Lear’s event at Spring Valley Library, however this event occurred earlier in the summer. His claim that he did not know who John Lear was until that date is also contradicted by the October 4th entry with John Lear’s name.
This entry is also important because a number of claims that Lazar makes later on — such as Zeta Reticuli being the home system of the aliens — are described in the “UFO Cover Up? Live!” Bob found important enough to include on his calendar.
The next relevant entry:
October 19, 1988
There was something here that I crossed out and then wrote John Lear at 4:30.
Another entry apparently denoting a meeting with John Lear. Lazar attempts to explain this as another TV appearance by John Lear, but is corrected by Gene Huff that the interview Bob cites happened in August.
Next entry:
November, 1988
L: Now we’re in November. There’s another random [John Lear] down. That’s another one.
Bob notes a November entry apparently denoting another meeting with John Lear.
Next entry:
November 17, 1988
L: See, I wonder if I’m screwing myself up here with my own …
Q: It’s okay… it’s absolutely okay.
L: [Linda Howe] I didn’t know about Linda Howe for… on the 17th of November.
John Lear has confirmed that he introduced Bob and Linda Moulton Howe in fall of 1988.
Bob notes later in the interview that Edward Teller called him on November 29th to tell him about what he would claim to later take him to S4.
Per Bob’s own calendar entries, he was interested enough in the UFO subject to be taking trips up to Area 51 in September of 1988, meeting with John Lear multiple times, adding UFO documentaries to his calendar, and meeting with notable people from the UFO community such as Linda Moulton Howe.
These events did not occur “simultaneous” to his application and interviews to work at S4.
The rest of the claims I’m going to look at will be easier to digest. I will simply cite quotes from Bob and the interviews that he has granted over the years.
Memory Tampering
1990:
Bob also believes his memory was affected by the use of drugs and hypnosis.
… on another occasion, he was given a glass of yellow liquid that smelled like pine, and claims to have been hypnotised several times, adversely affecting his memory. (Alien Contact pg. 8 and 38)
1993:
BL: My memory may have been tampered with.
BL: They made me drink a glassful of yellow liquid that smelled like pine. And it seems that they hypnotized me several times, I never found out why.” (https://www.scribd.com/document/520238029/Lazar-Cut-Revelations?secret_password=Ak3lv4axRVcjqTHKaFz6 Page 4)
Coast to Coast AM hosted by George Knapp circa 1995:
GK: Bob do you think they messed with your memory, that stuff that you drank? I mean, certainly they intimidated you, right?
BL: I don’t think so. I don’t know if the technology existed back then, I don’t know how much that technology exists today to selectively affect memories. But, I never experienced any memory loss to any degree.
GK: Well wait a second now, because you would say that there were times you’d fly up there you didn’t know when you got home you didn’t know what you’d done that day didn’t you?
BL: Well that is true, but it’s pretty much been that way my entire life. I don’t remember what I had for dinner last night. I’m just not the best guy as far as memory goes.
(https://youtu.be/WdJXFJxXiYg?t=1650)
Single organs or multiple organs in the alien autopsy photos
2019:
In my briefing, it did have to do with — as far as the actual beings that were in the craft — they had a photograph of them where their chest was cut and peeled back, and they had made notes of — it was only one central organ as if all the organs had grown together in one mass and it had multiple functions. (https://youtu.be/n4ZGidO1hH0?t=1973)
1990:
He also claims to have seen autopsy reports as well as black-and-white photographs of alien bodies (the typical “grays” weighing twenty-five to fifty pounds, with large hairless heads), and photos of various organs (some cross-sectioned) spread on a table, with weights and densities listed. “I was completely shocked,” he told George Knapp. (Alien Contact pg. 8)
Unknown Date:
Interviewer: They had their organs laying out, or what?
Lazar: Yeah, their organs. Some of them the organs were bisected, taken apart. There were drawings associated with the organs. (Video Interview)
Was there an information exchange?
December 20th, 1989:
Caller: Do we give something in exchange for all of this information they are giving us?
BL: I really don’t know. I don’t know what on behind the scenes as far as how we got the technology.
1990:
“Is it true,” I asked, “that there was an interchange of information between the aliens and some scientists at the site at one time…
“Right, that’s according to what I read, that’s what was going on.”
Lazar goes on to explain that an altercation with the aliens is what lead to the information exchange coming to an end.
There are various other interviews wherein Lazar repeats that there was an information exchange.
How many gravity amplifiers are used in omicron configuration?
1989 — Three
KVEG Radio Interview: December 28th 1989
“The low-speed mode — and I REALLY wish I could remember what they call these, but I can’t, as I can’t remember the frequency of the wave — The low-speed mode: The craft is very vulnerable; it bobs around. And it’s sitting on a weak gravitational field, sitting on three gravity waves. And it just bounces around. And it can focus the waves behind it and keep falling forward and hobble around at low speed.
1994 — One amplifier
“The craft operated in two modes — omicron and delta, which indicated how many gravity amplifiers were in use. In the omicron configuration, only one amplifier was used; the other two were swung out of the way and tucked inside the disc. In omicron mode, the crafts can essentially rise and hover but do little else.” (April, 1994, Omni Magazine)
2019 — One
“I could see that the craft had three emitters. Only one was creating the corona display and it was the one that was facing straight down at the ground.” Autobiography page 163
2019 — Two
Omicron uses two emitters to “stand” while third points in direction it should go (Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers 1:09:00)
Are the gravity amplifiers always powered on?
1990:
I don’t know if I mentioned it before, but the amplifiers always run at 100 percent. They are always outputting a maximum gravity, and that wave is phase shifted from zero to 180 degrees. (UFOs and Alien Presence pg, 17)
1991:
“The Lazar Tape”, 40 minute VHS videotape
“Now when a disk travels near another source of gravity, such as a planet or moon, it doesn’t use the same mode of travel that we learned about in our science lesson. When a disk is near another source of gravity, like Earth, the Gravity A wave which propagates outward from the disk is phase-shifted into the Gravity B wave which propagates outward from the Earth, and this creates lift. The gravity amplifiers of the disk can be focused independently and they are pulsed and do not stay on continuously.”
Is the 115 bombarded by protons?
1990:
No, it may enhance it or amplify it to some degree, or stimulate it to produce more. But just a single piece of 115 lying on the table has sufficient enough gravitational wave to deflect a laser fired over it.
1990:
Inside the reactor, Element 115 is bombarded with a proton which plugs into the nucleus of the 115 atom and becomes Element 116, which immediately decays and releases, or radiates, small amounts of anti-matter.
Was it element 115?
Bob has said his main contribution to the project at S4 was identifying what element was used to power the reactor, however he immediately acknowledges he did not actually identify which element it was.
1990:
BL: I was the one who identified element 115. That was my only contribution to the project. And I don’t stand on the fact that it’s 115, but if not, its 114. It’s right in there… I call it 115 because I’m used to saying that. (UFOs and Alien Presence pg, 11)
However, outside of this interview, Bob has stated unequivocally that it is element 115.
Lazar also gives conflicting accounts of what testing was done to determine what element it was:
1993:
BL: Well, no, I haven’t seen any spectrographic analysis on it, or… Well, actually, they did do… I don’t know if I saw it though. I saw a neutron bombardment test and density measurements and things like that, but I’m sure that carried out that tests on it. But I wouldn’t be able to identify the lines, no. (1993 Ultimate UFO Conference Q&A)
1990:
PH (Physicist friend of Lindemann’s): How did you determine that? Did you put it in a mass spectrograph? How do you figure out what element it was?
BL: Well, there are many different ways, but certainly a mass spectrograph was one way. We also did all kinds of bizarre things. Los Alamos was apparently involved in some of the analysis of the 115, and I don’t know if they knew what they were doing. They were also involved in some of the machining of the 115 pieces. (UFOs and Alien Presence pg, 11)
Where did the crafts originate from?
1989:
I don’t know. The thing is they look in very good condition, doesn’t look like they were crashed, that they were retrieved somewhere. It really looks like they were given. (Billy Goodman Happening)
1990:
“I don’t know where we got them from or how long ago it was, or anything. I don’t know if they were flown here and given to us or if they were crashed and repaired. I don’t think they crashed. (Alien Contact pg. 11)
There was a four or five-inch hole in the ‘brim’ of the ‘Top Hat,’ and the metal was bent upward like a projectile had gone through it. It is possible it could have been something else, but that’s what it looked like to me; like it was shot from underneath. That’s the only thing that ever put the seed in my mind that perhaps they weren’t all given to us, because that looks like a fairly offensive move… (Alien Contact pg. 19)
1993:
There were nine in all. And each one was different. Three had been taken apart for investigation, one was damaged, one had crashed only in August 1981. (Beyond Roswell Pg. 5)
Mid 1990's:
Q: How did these craft gets into the hands of the US Government?
BL: I really have no idea how the craft got there. I don’t believe there were crashes, because the craft weren’t damage. And that’s about all that I can say. (https://youtu.be/DppxgTlyCZI?t=302)
When Bob starts granting interviews again in 2015 forward, the story changes more dramatically.
2015:
GK: As far as you can tell, they didn’t look like they’d been in a crash, right?
BL: Well, there’s one, and I mentioned to this a long time ago and I never added this one thing. There was one like I said that had been shot with a projectile, and I know for a fact it came out of the water. That’s all I know.
GK: You know it for a fact because that’s what you were told?
BL: Yeah.
2019:
I’ve heard stories and read on the internet about theories about them being gifted, or crash landing. Clearly none of them crashed at all. Now my gut feeling. And this is my gut feeling, I have no information on this. I almost believe that this was some sort of archeological find in some way. I don’t think there was an exchange, like “we’re going to give you a bunch of craft.” I really can’t say why, it’s just because of the mutterings of my supervisor and the other people who worked there.(https://youtu.be/n4ZGidO1hH0?t=330)
2019:
“After all, we had these craft in our possession and it was like they were shot down in some large scale invasion. I still didn’t know how we got them, and in truth, how didn’t matter.”
Excerpt From: “Dreamland: An Autobiography.”
2019:
Something must have been said to me, from Barry, but it was too long ago and I can’t quite remember what was said but it just left a seed in my mind. I think at least one of them was from an archeological dig. So, it’s old. At least one of them is old. I don’t know if it was the one I worked on, but I remember something to do with an archeological dig. So it’s not just old, it’s ancient. (Joe Rogan Interview https://youtu.be/WmF6RXf6U_A?t=366)
What material was the craft made from?
1990:
I felt it was obviously metal. (UFOs and Alien Presence pg, 18)
1990:
“We can certainly make an alloy like that” (Alien Contact pg. 12)
1990:
Metal was bent upwards and looked like it was shot by projectile (Alien Contact pg. 19)
2009:
“Well, I called it metal. And again. It’s part of the research done, as you know, as it gets late, my brain begins to run out of words. But, you know, it’s all very compartmentalized. And the people that dealt with the metallurgy were a completely different group of people. I had no knowledge of it. The only light I can shine on it is the one time I walked across the craft and just slid my hand along it. It was cold and it’s the only reason I said it. It felt like metal. It was, you know, cooler than the ambient air. Could it have been some exotic ceramic or something? Probably so. I’m sure it wasn’t just an alloy of aluminum or anything along those lines, but that that’s about all I know about it. It was a pewter, gray and color, as was everything on the inside and outside of the craft. So that’s that’s about all I can say as far as what the material was.” (Coast to Coast with George Knapp)
Abruptly, in 2019, Lazar says tests had been done showing it was not metallic or ceramic.
2019:
“For example, I learned that the bulk of the craft was manufactured from the same material. Tests had shown that it was not metallic in origin nor was it ceramic.”
Excerpt From: “Dreamland: An Autobiography.” Pg. 84
Diameter of the Sport Model
1990:
PH: What’s diameter of that.
BL: Thirty or 35 feet. (UFOs and Alien Presence pg, 14)
1990:
The disc was originally estimated to be thirty five to forty feet in diameter and 15 feet high. (Alien Contact pg. 8)
1993:
The disc was about forty feet wideand about 15 feet tall. (Beyond Roswell Pg. 5)
1996:
52.8 ft in diameter (SyFy Documentary 10:50)
2019:
“From what I could discern, it was approximately fifty feet or so in diameter and was roughly twenty feet tall.”
Excerpt From: “Dreamland: An Autobiography.” Pg. 154
Was there writing in the craft?
1989:
“No” (Billy Goodman Happening)
1989:
“Not on controls or anything like that, but I did see some evidence of writing” (Billy Goodman Happening)
1990:
“After the panel had been transparent for a while, a form of writing, which was unlike any alphabetic, scientific, or mathematical symbols I’ve ever seen, began to appear on the transparent archway…” (Alien Contact pg. 17)
How much time spent at S4?
“He spent no more than six or seven days there.” (Alien Contact pg. 6)
However, in his autobiography he describes working at least 9 days at S4 and implies far more days than he explicitly mentions.
Security Clearance
1990:
I was never officially fired and my clearance was never officially taken away. (Alien Contact pg. 27)
1990:
As it turned out, that’s why my clearance was denied. (UFOs and Alien Presence pg, 3)
1993:
In Beyond Roswell, Lazar claims that he was, in fact, granted a security clearance, and then later in the interview says that his clearance had ended “negative” and he would need to reapply later. (Beyond Roswell Pg.7)
2019:
In his autobiography, Lazar says of his clearance after the interview with George Knapp aired: “I’d damaged my chances at getting the security clearance I’d needed to work at S4.” (“Dreamland: An Autobiography.” Pg. 270)
