“I just don’t really see why it’s so hard for men to stop talking about dicks and sex for like an hour in a meeting in mixed company”
It isn’t. That is why men generally don’t talk about dicks and sex in mixed company. I doubt if they talk about dicks and sex much in all male company either but I can’t say for sure.
“And yet they’re acting like they’re being oppressed because a minimum standard of decent behaviour is being enforced in workplaces.”
Ehm? No they are not. Most men and women understand that a certain amount of decorum is expected at work especially in a corporate environment in mixed company. That is why the guy Ellie Guzman is complaining about said — “careful guys there’s a lady in here.” He was politely warning his colleagues to tone it down because they were in mixed company and he quite rightly understood that most women are uncomfortable with dick jokes. This is what Ellie Guzman is complaining about. She is complaining that he was being “sexist” because he was assuming she would not be comfortable with dick jokes. That is the big elephant you completely missed when you decided to fire off your badly aimed little broad-side of knee-jerk feminist petulance.
If a man makes a dick joke in front of a woman then he is a sexist pig. If a man thinks he shouldn’t make a dick joke because there is a woman present then he is a sexist pig! Someone light the bonfire because we’re going to have a good old fashioned politically correct witch-hunt, and if you are a man you end up at the stake no matter what you do or say.
“If you ask me, the “lady” comment might have been one of the men remembering it’s not a lads’ night out,”
Congratulations! The penny finally drops. That was precisely my point in answer to Ellie Guzman; that a man is guilty either way in this brave new world of politically correct totalitarianism; because there is a pretty good chance that there is either an Ellie or a Liz in the room ready to melt like little snowflakes no matter what he says or doesn’t say. Poor Ellie is “humiliated” — “humiliated” I tell you, because someone says “careful guys there’s a lady in here.” But Liz is ready to run to HR if the guy dares to make the dick joke that Ellie is demanding.
I wonder will Liz complain to HR about Ellie if Ellie makes a dick joke?
No actually I don’t wonder at all.
“Your argument effectively reduces men to boorish, uncontrollable toddlers who can’t be expected to behave any better, so it’s up to women to put up with the jokes and crap and not go to HR.”
No it doesn’t: You just made that up: My argument doesn’t suggest anything of the kind. In fact it says pretty much the opposite of that; except for the going to HR part, which I find to be disgusting childish and cowardly behaviour.
“I was responding to your complaint that men are victims of “PC witch hunts” (your own words) and that it’s “snowflakes” who can’t handle a bit of banter.”
That was only one third of what you were responding to and it still stands. I can send you endless links to stories about men who have been railroaded out of their jobs by PC witch hints simply because they said something that some hyper-sensitive damsel decided to throw a pity party over: In most cases it is a lame joke that isn’t even particularly vulgar. But you already know that. That is an indisputable fact.
You finish your post with the “men have their brains in their trousers” joke. It is a common one and not being vulgar it is safe for work. Women and men joke about each other. It is harmless. It is part of the natural banter between the sexes that has been around for thousands of years. But today wait for the reaction when a man makes a “women are gold diggers” joke. It is also harmless. But it will guarantee a PC outpouring of shrieking feminist outrage; with feminists organisations casting it as symbolic of some kind of insidious “patriarchal” plot against women. It could even get the guy fired.
The second part of what you were responding to was my contention that vulgar banter is not a serious problem whether it is coming from men or women. It is simply rude and unprofessional. It is a minor problem and can usually be stopped with some grown up behaviour and a little diplomacy without trying to destroy someone’s career. Turning it into a political issue to feed feminist conspiracy theories will serve no purpose except to create the same toxic atmosphere that feminism brings everywhere it manages to infect.
The third and final point which you spectacularly missed completely; was my contention that Ellie Guzman is basically accusing a man of “benevolent sexism” by warning other men to tone down the commentary because there was a woman present. She was “humiliated” didn’t you know, by a man doing precisely what you demand that they do! She claims she wants to join in the vulgar banter and is being denied this by sexist men. You on the other hand believe that the vulgar banter is sexist. So what is the man to do? Should he write to feminist HQ and get the official memo? Or would it say what it always says — “If you’re male then everything you do is sexist by default!”
Mostly my response was pointing out that Ellie’s article contradicted itself completely in every paragraph and it kind of sums up the hyper-emotive anti-logic of feminism.
“It may shock you to learn that some are men and some don’t like lewd dick jokes either.”
It doesn’t shock me at all. I know that most people don’t like dick jokes especially at work. I also know that men get fired for them and women don’t. I was trying to explain to the logically challenged Ellie Guzman that that is why most men tend to tone it down in the company of women; that and the fact that they know that many women are uncomfortable with dick jokes and most men respond to this with a little chivalry. But I forgot. Chivalry is “sexist” isn’t it?
“You painted men as innocent victims of PC culture, which is what I was responding to. They’re not innocent and they can choose to modify their behaviour.”
Yes I do see the ones who get thrown under the feminist bus by some vindictive over-grown toddler, as innocent victims. A vulgar joke is rude. It is not a crime against humanity and if it bothers you for more than about ten seconds then you probably should not be allowed out of doors without adult supervision.
“You seem to hate other women for their snowflakery:”
I don’t “hate” anyone. You once again speak to the voices in your own head. I do find those women who have jumped on the feminist snow-flake bus and are determined to turn into blubbering damsels over every insignificant little thing they can find, to be quite pathetic.
Most women, like me, are more grown up than that. Maybe it is because we don’t have inferiority complexes about the natural differences between men and women and we don’t see all those differences as evidence of misogyny. Maybe we are mature enough to see through the stupidity of the feminist obsession with correctly regimented, and enforced “gender neutrality.” Maybe it is because we know the difference between an awkward moment and some kind of sinister plot against us. Maybe it is because we are not obsessed by diagnosing the complicated minefield of human interaction and manufacturing reasons to cast every minor male foible as some kind of toxic dysfunction. Maybe it is because we’re not feminists.
You seem to be excusing the “boys’ club” mentality without any kind of critical thinking about it.”
I have no idea what you mean by “boys clubs.” You cannot throw a stone in any western city without hitting a girls club of some kind. That’s fine with me and if boys want to have their clubs too; that’s also fine with me.
But then like I said; I’m not a feminist.
I take it you’re one of those “one of the lads” girls — and I get it, I really do,”
No you don’t “get it” at all. I am not “one of the lads” and nor do I want to be.” I am just me. I am not a feminist so I do not spend my time bitterly disparaging “the lads” while trying to be as “laddish” as possible. “He made a dick joke — sexist pig!” “She made a dick joke — You go girl!”
“I did the same in tech to survive and threw my fellow women under the bus who wanted to challenge the status quo.”
Well that wasn’t very nice of you was it. I have never thrown anyone under the bus. Next time I suggest you just stand your own ground and fight your own corner like the “empowered” woman you feminists constantly claim to be; usually just before you throw a pity party because someone said something that offends your delicate sensibilities.
But this has nothing to do with “boys clubs” or “girls clubs.” It is about the fact that some people do not have a sense of decorum in the workplace. Plenty of women have a “crass as fuck” sense of humour too, as both you and Ellie proudly boast. I was simply pointing out that men can get fired for having a “crass sense of humour.” Women will probably not. We both know that any man who complained to HR about how offended he was by a remark some woman made, would be laughed out of the room, and rightfully so. A woman on the other hand who claims to be “offended” can easily spark of a festival of “concern” and demonising and cries of “sexism” and “misogyny” and relentless lectures by po-faced feminist autonomous about “toxic masculinity.”
My contention is that what is good for the goose should be good for the gander, and I know that is pretty much blasphemy against feminist doctrine.
I do not have a “crass sense of humour.” I tend to see gratuitous vulgarity as childish, unnecessary and usually un-funny and I certainly don’t welcome it in the workplace. Most men don’t either in my experience.
But I am a grown-up not a feminist. I don’t feel intimidated or humiliated or any of those things feminists like to be. I don’t need to run shrieking for the swooning couch and I certainly am not going to throw some poor schmuck under the bus just for having a dirty mouth. If some man (or woman) is making vulgar jokes, then I am either going to avoid them if I don’t work with them, or ask them to stop if I do. That usually works.
And if anything, it is this PC witch-hunt culture that is leading to men retreating into “boys clubs.” Most of them are not gratuitously vulgar and most of them are perfectly capable of maintaining certain standards in mixed company, but few of them want to be around people who can pose such a threat to them. Nobody wants to work with hyper-sensitive simpletons who can be triggered into a frenzy of damseling by one stupid throw-away remark.
You are very clear in your implication that a man who makes a joke you deem to be “inappropriate” should be dragged before a HR inquisition and possibly have his career damaged? You actually think it is acceptable to damage someone’s career, not because of anything he did; but because he said something you find “offensive.”
Congratulations you’re a feminist!
That is why I find feminism to be bitter, vindictive, divisive, bigoted, hateful, breath-takingly hypocritical, damaging to both men and women, and just downright toxic.