Two Headed Girl
Alex: Hi, Matthew Robbins Cox. How are you doing?
Matt: I’m awesome. How are you? Alexandra Elizabeth Cox.
Alex: You know, um terrified as we’re preparing to release a show about you transitioning, and our marriage, and our mental illness, and when I say transitioning I realize that even now people don’t know that I’m talking about that you’re transgender.
Matt: Hey, I’m transgender.
Alex: Oh, surprise!
Matt: Surprise!
Alex: For a couple of years now the two of us have been recording the process of you transitioning, and both of us exploring what gender means, and I guess we’re making a show about it.
Matt: Oh, we’re definitely making a show about it.
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Alex: I asked you “Can you pull over so we can record for a second?”
Matt: No you didn’t.
Alex: I did and then it was —
Matt: You said “Can you pull over?” and I said “Okay why? Are you gonna stress me out some more?”
Alex: And I said “Yes, probably.”
Matt: But you didn’t ask me if I wanted to record anything.
Alex: Can I record? I am recording. Can we record?
Matt: Yes.
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Alex: I mean, I don’t even know where to start because… What would you say to someone who just said, what’s being transgender mean?
Matt: I would say that gender is a spectrum and is fluid and some people identify as a different gender than they were assigned at birth and other people identify as no gender.
Alex: Aren’t you a little freaked out that we’re telling the story of like the past two years of our marriage as you’ve transitioned?
Matt: Not even a little.
Alex: Why? How does that not scare you?
Matt: Because I’m an over-sharer.
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Matt: Hey, so, this is Matt. I was instructed today, well not instructed, suggested by Alex that I sit and record my feelings. I’ve been feeling… Really dysphoric and out of place. I sort of quit my job at a certain place unexpectedly, not in the best way, and I was feeling really shitty and anxious this morning and so dysphoric, and I had a little talk with Alex.
I have a consult tomorrow with Dr. Garramone who’s a top surgeon in Florida, which I think is who we are going to go with. I think around eight months would be a decent amount of time. Like I really don’t want to wait a year. It’s been kind of rough. I’m not gonna lie.
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Matt: I like sharing my life with people. I like being open and especially if something like this were to help people. I would definitely want to, and even if it doesn’t… I just, I don’t know. I put who I am on my sleeve and if people don’t like it, then you know, whatever.
Alex: I know. I think I just keep putting it off because I’m afraid. The thing is I don’t care if people judge me. I’m very protective of you and I worry about you.
Matt: I don’t care if people judge me either.
Alex: Yeah, what kind of questions do you think we’re going to get?
Matt: Do you have a penis?
Alex: (laughs) No, but I mean like, us, as a married couple. Because, you know, we lived the first… I mean can you even say that you lived your life as a lesbian from birth? Because you have no concept of gender or sexuality.
Matt: I popped out of the womb with half my head shaved, and gauges, pink hair, a nose ring.
Alex: (Laughing ) I mean exactly. Presenting as gay you already get the question of ‘Oh who’s the man and who’s the woman?’ But now people are genuinely going to ask who’s the man and who’s the woman and I guess you’re the man now…?
Matt: I’m just going to say we’re people. Why does it matter?
Alex: Yeah. Well, it’s just a question I get all the time and I don’t know how to answer it.
Matt: That’s it. That’s how you answer it. You say, ‘we’re partners we’re equals and that’s it.’ You drop it.
Alex: And then they’re like the, ‘But no really who’s…’
Matt: Like no, really, it doesn’t matter.
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Alex: I was helping with a live show tonight for work and we were talking about our significant others and I referred to you as my husband.
Matt: Why can’t you just say my spouse?
Alex: I normally do but I thought…
Matt: Nu’uh you say ‘my wife’ all the time.
Alex: Not around new people. Because then it —
Matt: About 80% of the time you do.
Alex: Really?
Matt: And I honestly wish, especially around people that weren’t our friends, that you would say spouse.
Alex: I can do that.
Matt: Because they get really confused.
Alex: Well, poop on them.
Matt: Well, yeah, and I don’t want to have to explain it to strangers. Which is why spouse would be great.
Alex: Right, no, exactly.
Matt: I’ve never asked you to use husband. Ever.
Alex: But do you? But I think —
Matt: No. I’d like you to use spouse.
Alex: But why not husband?
Matt: Because I’ve never wanted you to use that term.
Alex: Why not?
Matt: Because it’s weird.
Alex: Why is it weird?
Matt: Because it’s a gross patriarchal word.
Alex: I do like saying (as Borat) “My wife”.
Matt: I know, but again…
Alex: (interrupting as Borat) My wife.
Matt: For strangers that’s confusing and you should just say spouse.
Alex: I and you are —
Matt: And don’t say you do because you don’t usually.
Alex: I agree with you. 80% of the time since you’ve come out I had —
Matt: I would say even in the last three months whenever we go out you say wife and I cringe.
Alex: You cringe?
Matt: Yeah. You say wife a lot when we’re around people we don’t know.
Alex: There’s no excuse for me doing that and I’m sorry.
Matt: It’s okay, again —
Alex: It’s not okay.
Matt: It’s just around strangers. I would like you to not, that’s all.
Alex: I know and I think I’ve been aware of it which is why I tried husband tonight and was like, ugh.
Matt: Yeah, and you never have to use that word.
Alex: Are you okay with using spouse for me, too?
Matt: Yeah, of course.
Alex: I guess it is the equality thing. Like I’ve never wanted to be a man’s wife, but I will be your spouse. You know what I mean?
Matt: Yeah, I know.
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Alex: I have to say you being trans is like one of the least interesting things about you.
Matt: I mean, I hope so because it’s not like I — while I am proud to be trans, it’s not like I go out in the street and I’m like, ‘Ah yes, today I feel the transness. I am the Tran.’
Alex: I mean who’s even going to listen to this? Who do you think this is for?
Matt: I hopefully think it’s for people who want to learn more about exploring gender, honestly.
Alex: When people say are you a man…Is that, do you say yes or no?
Matt: I mean it depends on where… I mean we’ve talked about this before. It depends on where I am in the situation. If they understand and are edumacated (laughs) … Educated on queer culture. Then I say transmasculine. If not, then I say FTM, and I’m a man, and my name is Matt. Around people who understand, or are trying to understand, then it’s queer, genderfluid, transmasculine. So, it depends on who I am around and the situation.
Alex: I just, I don’t know, whenever I try to make something I want it to be something that 12 year old me would like, because little, queer, unknowing, 12 year old Alex is lonely and sad and confused and — is it too lofty a goal to think that maybe this will help somebody?
Matt: Heck no. I think like listening back on a lot of stuff that we’ve recorded, so much of it is breaking down like gender stereotypes and emotions regarding gender and like how we grew up and things like that. A lot of our recordings when I listen back, I’m like ‘this has to be helpful to someone.’
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Matt: I don’t identify as a binary man. But I also don’t want to be seen as like classically feminine. I’m more on the masculine side. Like I would have no problem, on days that I am comfortable in my masculinity and the way I look, like putting on like some mascara. Every day I put on like cover-up to hide my acne, and a lot of people on Tumblr are like, “oh you won’t pass, don’t do that, guys have acne. They don’t cover up their face.” But that’s what makes me feel comfortable. Like, that’s just toxic BS masculinity right there.
Alex: You don’t always want to be seen as fully masculine?
Matt: Gender is a spectrum. I am definitely more on the masculine side because that is how I feel more comfortable presenting myself, but and I prefer he/him pronouns right now a lot, but I wouldn’t mind and I think eventually I’ll be fine with they/them and I’ve just been… I think as I am more comfortable in my masculinity, I’m more comfortable with wearing like tighter fitting underwear and stuff that shows off my body more and like… So yeah. I am not a binary man.
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Alex: People are so afraid to ask questions of people who are genderqueer, of people who are trans. Even now people who are gay, and it’s not the job of the queer community to like, educate everybody about gender and sexuality but someone has to. I don’t know if we’re the best people to, but we can try.
Matt: I think we’re badass! And we might not be the best people, but I think that we can definitely make a positive impact.
Alex: Oh, you’re you’re making it sound so good.
Matt: But and it’s not necessarily that it’s good or the best, but I think it’s genuine, and raw, and honest.
Alex: Yeah, but I don’t like those things.
Matt: Well, they’re already there.
Alex: I know. What’s it been like recording your transition with me? Like as we record this, it’s been what, two years?
Matt: Almost, I mean it’s been longer than two years that we’ve been recording. It’s been at times frustrating, at times helpful and cathartic, and a great release of emotions, and at times really educational.
Alex: What do you mean by educational?
Matt: I’ve read stuff and I learned stuff. I explore more about gender because of this podcast, and I learn more about you, and how you’re feeling about gender because of this podcast.
Alex: What do you think is the first thing people should know about folks who are transgender?
Matt: Trans people are people. We’re just people.
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Matt: I’m Mattie Cox
Alex: and I’m Alex Cox.
Matt: This is a show about gender, our minds, and transitions.
Alex: Welcome to Two Headed Girl.
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Alex: We really appreciate you checking out this first episode and we hope you’ll listen more in the future. The music you heard is from Seth Boyer’s album Half Lonely. Special thanks to our friends Kathy Campbell, Margaret Dax, Mark Bramhill, Kara Fagan, Kevin Budnik, and to our cats who stopped stepping over our keyboards long enough for us to finish editing.
If you’d like to hear more, head over to twoheadedgirl.fm Or subscribe anywhere you find your podcasts — including our favorite independent app, Overcast. If you could leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever we’d really, really appreciate it. Please reach out to us to tell us what you think, ask us questions or you know, send memes. We’re @twoheadedgirlfm on Twitter or email us at twoheadedgirlfm@gmail.com.
Thanks again for listening.