‘We want to be open, but it’s not really in our genes’
Talking diversity and business with Nesrien Abu Ghazaleh and Martha Meerman
At Professional Rebel we know that to come up with fresh ideas you need to stop relying on stale methods. Bringing diverse and talented people together is at the heart of coming up with awesome things.
Nesrien Abu Ghazaleh and Martha Meerman are two researchers at the Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences with completely different backgrounds. What links them is their focus on bringing diversity to the forefront in the Netherlands. I spoke to them about color, quotas and why businesses need diversity.
What kind of research do you guys do?
Martha: “Diversity is the starting point for our work. Both of us have PhDs in diversity, which means for four years we were intensively preoccupied with the subject, and we still are.”
Martha and Nesrien are part of a research group tackling different themes on diversity including social entrepreneurship involving refugees and inclusive employment.
Nesrien: “We’re currently setting up a learning network on inclusive employment for HR managers and heads of companies. We want them to learn from each other and share their experiences when it comes to attracting and retaining staff that are more socio-economically excluded.”
What is your link to diversity?
Nesrien: “My parents are from Jordan, so I have a different background than most people in the Netherlands, but all my girlfriends growing up were Dutch. I haven’t been raised as a foreigner at all. There isn’t a big community from Jordan here either, unlike for example the Turkish community. Likewise in a lot of my research I look at how people feel, and what their identity and group identity is.”
Martha: “I’m the exact opposite. I am really white, blond and Dutch and I am especially interested in my research how white reacts to the other, to diversity. White as majority, as the middle, the rules, as the dominant culture. I’ve found that we want to be more accepting and open but often it’s not really in our genes. So I look at, how do you work with others, how do you regard them and how do you learn from them?”
What does diversity mean to you?
Nesrien: To me, diversity means everyone being together. It’s quite a difficult term to explain, because I think it’s self-explanatory. Diversity is everything in one.”
Martha: “For me it means always concerning yourself with the topic. When you hold a party you have to ask, ‘Are there only a certain type of people coming?’ In my private and professional life I try very hard to work on diversity. Not only to be aware, but to actively create it.”
Why is diversity important for companies?
Nesrien: “Because it doesn’t happen.”
Martha: “And that’s a shame. One the one hand it helps you by creating a more open and accepting atmosphere and on the other hand it helps to understand your clients better.”
Nesrien: “Basically if you’re a salesperson and you miss a certain customer that’s not unimportant. You really should look at what you want to achieve, but Amsterdam for example consists of a lot more than only one demographic.”
Martha: “We live in an international world and you’ll only become more conservative if you stay in your own little shell.”
What works and what doesn’t when it comes to promoting diversity?
Martha: “Legislation for us is important because then we can say there needs to be more research, but things like quota are actually not so important. It has to come from within and a quota comes from outside.”
Nesrien: “In my PhD research I looked at the impact of positive discrimination and I saw it had the opposite effect. Dutch people started feeling more discriminated. Ultimately, what really works best is good old simple interaction.”
If you want to join the first meeting of the HR learning network on inclusive employment on 10 October, apply here.
Roald Tjon is Chief Reporter at Professional Rebel and freelance writer and editor. He regularly does interviews, checks our spelling and is our resident grammar enforcer. He also has a big interest in diversity.
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