Author Dr. Mark Goulston: How To Be Great At Sales Without Seeming Salesey
There is a saying that people want to buy, but they don’t like being sold. Why? Because when you push people, you remove their ability to feel that they chose to buy from you and replace it with their feeling they have to buy from you. Human nature is such, especially with the male mindset, that it prefers to choose what it does vs. being pushed. That is why it matters less what you tell your customer than what you cause them to tell you that reveals a need or problem they urgently have to solve that your product or service solves
As a part of my series about how to be great at closing sales without seeming pushy, obnoxious, or salesy, I had the pleasure of interviewing Mark Goulston, M.D.
Dr. Mark Goulston is one of the world’s preeminent thought leaders on empathic listening with his book, “Just Listen” Discover the Secret to Getting Through to Absolutely Anyone, becoming the top book on listening in the world translated into 25 languages. He coaches CEOs, executives and trains sales teams on increasing their influence which is much more impactful and lasting than being persuasive. He hosts the My Wakeup Call podcast, has also trained FBI and police hostage negotiators and been a UCLA professor of psychiatry for more than twenty years.
Thank you for doing this with us Dr. Goulston! Before we dig in, our readers would like to learn a bit more about you. Can you tell us the “backstory” about what brought you to this career path?
As a “boots on the ground” clinical psychiatrist specializing in suicide prevention for more than thirty years, where none of my patients died by suicide, I noticed that the more I tried to push or persuade, the more patients pushed back and resisted and didn’t improve. On the other hand, if I could let go of any personal, self-serving agenda and replace it with the sole purpose of reaching and connecting with them where they were, as in the Dark Night of the Soul, and empathized with them until they felt less alone, they would begin to cry with relief, feel grateful and appreciative and be open to my leading them to where I wanted them to go. For them that meant not merely refraining from killing themselves, but being glad they were alive.
Over time I expanded my work into training FBI and police hostage negotiators and the business world and discovered that it was also true that the more you get where people are coming from and then care about them and help them get to where they want to go, the more likely they are to let you take them where you wanted them to go. This is especially true in effective managers and leaders with regard to motivating their people.
In sales, what is critical is having a product or service that is aligned with where customers want to go vs. forcing something on them that they neither want nor need.
Can you share with our readers the most interesting or amusing story that occurred to you in your career so far? Can you share the lesson or take away you took out of that story?
Years ago, I had waited weeks to get an appointment with a busy, large, macho appearing CEO, named John. When we finally met, it became clear to me that he was pre-occupied and that the last thing he wanted to do was meet with me. A few minutes passed when I blurted out, “Hey! How much time do you have for me?”
He was taken aback and looked up at me with an angry look that communicated, “Your time is up buddy!”
He said, “What!” with obvious aggravation in his voice.
I repeated, “I said, ‘how much time do you have for me?’”
He looked at his calendar and replied, with an about-to-throw-me-out-of-the-room tone, “Twenty minutes!”
I replied, “Look, we’re into minute three and there is something much more important on your mind than meeting with me. I think what I have to speak to you about is worth your undivided attention which you can’t give me now. So, here’s the deal. Let’s stop now and reschedule or you don’t have to ever have to see me, but take the remaining sixteen minutes from our meeting and take care of what’s on your mind, because it’s not fair to other people, including me, or even you for you to be so distracted.”
He paused for a moment and then his eyes teared up and he said, “I’m a private person and you know something that people thirty feet from here don’t know. My wife is having a biopsy and it doesn’t look good.”
I replied, this time more compassionately, “I’m so sorry to hear that. You shouldn’t be here, and your mind clearly isn’t here. Go be with her or at least make whatever calls you need to make to put your mind a little more at ease.”
He then shook himself like a St. Bernard dog coming in out of the rain and said, “I’m not as tough as my wife, but I am tough. I did two tours in Iraq and I can get refocused. You’ve got my undivided attention and you’ve got your full twenty minutes.” And BTW I’ve also developed a lifelong friendship with John. Also, things turned out okay with his wife.
And the lesson?
When you let go of a personal agenda and go where someone is at and care about them when you’re there, they become appreciative, grateful and want to return the favor.
Are you working on any exciting new projects now? How do you think that will help people?
I’ve been writing about and speaking on my latest and most disruptive idea about effective communication. It’s about changing your focus whenever you’re with a person or a group to focusing not on what they are listening to and focus on what they’re listening for.
When people are listening to you and you give them information, they’ll give you their attention and their minds as long as you are clear, concise, relevant and engaging. That is a transactional conversation. However, when people are listening for something, and you get that accurately and deliver on it, they will give you everything.
Let me demonstrate. With your questions, you are listening to me to give you answers where you can nod and think, “Yes, that’s good. Yep, can use that.” If that happens, we’ve had a nice transaction.
However, if I focus on what you’re listening for, I think that might be: listening and looking for information that is relevant to your readers that will be something fresh, different and doable by them that will help them get better results sooner, become more successful and maybe even encourage them through these difficult times. You’re also looking for information that will spontaneously cause them to excitedly share with all of their network, especially on LinkedIn so that more people follow you. What you’re also listening for is information — regardless of how famous the expert is — that is useless, not helpful and something you can’t post and then have to awkwardly tell that expert, “Sorry, we couldn’t use what you sent.”
Did I get it right? If so, are you more inclined to want to hear more? If that is true it’s because I got where you’re coming from without your telling me and you’re curious about what else I might know.
None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story about that?
Perhaps my greatest personal accomplishment, beyond family and children, is that I dropped out of medical school twice, probably for untreated depression, and still graduated. The second time I dropped out, I hit a very low point. The school wanted to kick me out, because they lost matching funds every time a student took a leave of absence. However, the Dean of Students, who cared about students, saw a future for me, that I didn’t see, value in me that I didn’t believe I had and something I had that the world needed (the ability to give hopeless people hope) and went to bat for me against the medical school at his own peril.
All of that, especially standing up for me, flipped a switch in me and caused me to then pay forward what he had done for me by doing the same for suicidal patients after I finished medical school. I did that for 30+ years.
For the benefit of our readers, can you tell us a bit why you are an authority on the topic of sales?
I am an authority on getting through to people by opening them up — which I covered in my book, “Just Listen,” and then influencing them to take action — which I covered in my book, “Real Influence,” and have trained hostage negotiators and been a suicide intervention specialist. Both involve “selling” people on not doing something destructive.
To accomplish that I have learned to get and go where people are really coming from and surfacing what is most important, critical and urgent to their becoming cooperative as in the case of my work in suicide prevention and hostage negotiation training and alternately becoming successful in the business world. Once that is brought out into the open and you then provide people with a product or service that helps them realize that success, you’ve got their full attention, interest and commitment.
You begin this by being a “first class noticer” which is more active and dynamic than seeing, watching or looking which are all more passive. Next you notice or help your customer reveal what that thing is that is most important (one year), critical (three to six months) and/or urgent (now and what they’re likely to act on).
When I worked with suicidal patients, what I noticed is that in order to lessen their suicidal thinking, they needed a reason to live. Furthermore, what I noticed is that when I could connect with them in their Dark Night of the Soul and they “felt felt” and less alone, they cried with relief, began to feel better and then began to be able to think of taking steps to get better.
Let’s shift a bit to what is happening today in the broader world. Many people have become anxious from the dramatic jolts of the news cycle. The fears related to the COVID-19 pandemic have understandably heightened a sense of uncertainty and loneliness. From your experience, what are a few ideas that we can use to effectively offer support to our families and loved ones who are feeling anxious? Can you explain?
There is something I been having companies and families use called the Ten Word check-in. During conference calls or when you’re with your family members in person or via a conference call, as part of the check-in, the leader or a parent says, “I don’t want any of us to feel awful and feel it all alone. So, I’d like each of you to think of the worst you have felt since we last connected and which of these words matches what you were feeling, or you can add a different word. The Ten Words are: anxious, depressed, afraid, frustrated, angry, ashamed, alone, lonely, exhausted, numb. When people have then said or typed in the word in the chat area, you enable and feel a collective exhale that feels relieving and where people feel less alone.
Why?
Because there is research in an area called “affective labeling” where when you match the correct feeling word to what you’re actually feeling, it reduces mental agitation by a third. Also, when you all do it, it ups a feeling of bondedness and causes everyone to “feel felt,” which also helps people feel relief and then are better able to think and start solving problems.
Depending on your time, you can also ask people to share what was going on and what were they thinking when they felt that way.
The more people get to talk it out, the better they feel. Our natural hesitation is to resist this because most of us are already feeling that we can’t stand to hear any more upsetting things, but inviting and allow people to express themselves and their resultant feeling so grateful to you for it has the opposite effect and makes everyone feel better.
Ok. Thanks for all that. Let’s now jump to the main core of our interview. As you know, nearly any business a person will enter, will involve some form of sales. At the same time, most people have never received any formal education about how to be effective at selling. Why do you think our education system teaches nearly every other arcane subject, but sales, one of the most useful and versalite topics, is totally ignored?
The more people are focused on “results,” the less they seem to be focused on “relating” to a customer. Why? Because relating to a person means risking finding out what they truly need and want that has nothing to do with what you’re selling. Additionally, it might be a legitimate need they’re having that you know nothing about and you’re then faced with the awkwardness of telling them you can’t help them and clumsily changing the subject. Therefore, salespeople too often try to keep the sales conversation focused on the product or service they are selling. When that happens, customers can often feel controlled and pushed by keeping the conversation so narrowly focused and with the main intention of getting them to buy.
This discussion, entitled, “How To Be Great At Sales Without Seeming Salesey”, is making an assumption that seeming salesy or pushy is something to be avoided. Do you agree with this assumption? Whether yes, or no, can you articulate why you feel the way you do?
There is a saying that people want to buy, but they don’t like being sold. Why? Because when you push people, you remove their ability to feel that they chose to buy from you and replace it with their feeling they have to buy from you. Human nature is such, especially with the male mindset, that it prefers to choose what it does vs. being pushed. That is why it matters less what you tell your customer than what you cause them to tell you that reveals a need or problem they urgently have to solve that your product or service solves. You can discover the latter by doing a better job of target marketing your customer and also making sure that the customer you are speaking with has decision making power, because if they don’t they may not be able to tell their boss about your product or service with the same energy and clarity as you do.
The seven stages of a sales cycle are usually broken down to versions of Prospecting, Preparation, Approach, Presentation, Handling objections, Closing, and Follow-up. Which stage do you feel that you are best at? What is your unique approach, your “secret sauce”, to that particular skill? Can you explain or give a story?
Approach and presentation. I work on approach by drilling into what I believe my customer will be listening and looking for. BTW, it is nearly always the same three things. First, they’re listening and looking for something that will get them better results than they are getting because that will get them a raise and/or a promotion; second, they’re listening and looking for something that makes sense and feels as if it would solve their problem; third and perhaps most important, they’re listening and looking for something that is doable by and can be implemented by them. Therefore, it needs to be easy to use or subsequent technical assistance to make it work has to be excellent and helpful. A product or service that can’t be readily and easily used can be a source of great aggravation.
Conversely, they’re also listening for something that won’t work, that if they say yes to, could get them in trouble from a boss who might question their judgment in saying yes.
Lead generation, or prospecting, is one of the basic steps of the sales cycle. Obviously every industry will be different, but can you share some of the fundamental strategies you use to generate good, qualified leads?
First, I think of what problems I uniquely solve better than anyone else I know. Second, I think of what moneyed company or person most urgently needs that problem to be solved and then all that is necessary is to get in front of that company or person. Finally, I then think of someone with credibility and influence who first hand has experienced my skills and greatly benefited from them who can be a messenger for me to that company or person and speak me up for actual legitimate reasons they have personally experienced. All of this takes time in building your network and the best way to do that is to generously, without asking for anything in return, help others. That would actually be a great thing to do during these difficult times. Do a lot of giving without asking for anything in return.
BTW one of the problems I uniquely solve is to help people be more impactful (i.e. get more people to do what they want) by helping them become more compelling. Being compelling opens up people’s minds to want to hear more from you and listen to you. Being convincing, especially too soon, usually triggers resistance because you haven’t yet done what is necessary to cause people to open up their mind to you.
In my experience, I think the final stages of Handling Objections, Closing, and Follow-up, are the most difficult parts for many people. Why do you think ‘Handling Objections’ is so hard for people? What would you recommend for one to do, to be better at ‘Handling Objections’?
Most people have problems handling objections, because an objection feels as if you’re being told, “No,” even if you’re not. That often triggers powerful negative reactions in many people that are frequently unconsciously tied to having been told “No,” or even talked down to from earlier in their lives. The awkwardness is even accentuated because often the person doing the objecting is uncomfortable because he/she believes it will be upsetting to the salesperson.
The anticipatory anxiety about receiving an objection also offers a good opportunity to instead think about how to handle it with class and poise, which can often win over a customer who suddenly admires the salesperson for demonstrating those. A late mentor of mine named Walter Dunn, who was a top salesperson for Coca Cola, shared a great approach with me for handling objections. Walter advised that as soon as a person voices an objection, pause for a couple seconds, remain very calm and friendly and say, “What question or problem or circumstance did I fail to address, learn about or even ask about that if I had and we could solve it might have changed your answer from a no to a yes?”
‘Closing’ is of course the proverbial Holy Grail. Can you suggest 5 things one can do to successfully close a sale without being perceived as pushy? If you can, please share a story or example, ideally from your experience, for each. (My answer is different than what you’re asking for, let me know if it’s okay).
There is a technique we have developed and coach and train people on that works well in B2B sales called, “Never answer a question in the first meeting,” that helps increase closing more sales.
Essentially you cause people to tell you about a problem they are trying to solve. As they speak, notice emotionally laden words like “amazing,” “awful,” “great,” “bad,” etc. or when the raise their voice. Doing either reveals something that is important to them. After they do that, pause for a second, which communicates you have considered what they said and respond with, “Say more about the (awful, great, amazing or whatever phrase they raised their voice about).”
This will cause them to go deeper into something that has emotional juice on it and therefore is likely to matter more to your customer. Keep them talking with more questions such as: “Why does that matter?” or “Why does that matter now?” or “What will be the impact if you get that solved or not solved, by when?” etc.
The idea is that you want to have them reveal more and more about the problem to be solved than they reveal to other salespeople, because that will increase their investment in wanting to find an answer or solution from you.
If you do that sufficiently, you will usually pique their curiosity about what you’re thinking. If they ask you, “What do you think?” respond with, “I can tell you what I think, but I’m trying to distill what was the most important as in one year from now, critical as in three months from now and urgent matter as in now, that we’ve spoken about. I can guess what those are, but it would be better if you could tell me.”
Then after they go into what those things are, they are likely to be even more eager to hear your response and ask you again what you think.
At that point, respond with, “I can tell you what I think or what we’ve done for other customers who have had similar problems that we’ve solved, but it wouldn’t be my best answer. You’ve told me about things that are important, critical and urgent and I don’t want to give you anything less than my best answer which I can’t give you now because I want to check on some things. The question is, do you want me to find out those things to give you the best answer and if so, what is the best way to follow up so I can give you it?”
What you’re doing with the above is essentially getting people to open up more than they have to other salespeople, and then be more eager to get an answer from you, and then have them be eager to follow up with you vs. you having to chase them down.
Regarding follow up, you’re always in a better position if your customer is pursuing you than if you’re pursuing them.
There is another technique we have used and trained people on called “No Regret Selling.”
Essentially it uses the above technique to get people to open up more to you than other salespeople and then keep them motivated and waiting with baited breath for you to come back to them with a product or solution.
If after following all of those steps, they’re still hesitant, but haven’t given you an outright no response, you might try saying to them, “What you’re hesitation says to me is that you’re weighing whether you’ll regret saying, “No,” to me more than you’ll regret saying, ‘Yes.’ If you say, ‘Yes,’ and then your boss rails at you for your decision and even begins to lose confidence in you, you’re certainly going to regret making that happen.
“On the other hand, if you say, ‘No,’ then you still have to solve the problem by buying another product or service elsewhere and you’re going to have to go through the entire process with another sales person, and that next one might not be as thorough at drilling down into your problem.”
“Also, if you say, ‘No,’ and a competitor says, ‘Yes,’ and then completely overtakes your company because of having bought this service or product, that could be something else that your boss might not be pleased about.”
As you know there are so many modes of communication today. For example, In-person, phone calls, video calls, emails, and text messages. In your opinion, which of these communication methods should be avoided when attempting to close a sale or follow up? Which are the best ones? Can you explain or give a story?
I would use a technique pioneered by Marshall Goldsmith, the top executive coach in the world where you focus on the future and be proactive as much as possible. Doing that prevents you from having something happen that you don’t like and then becoming reactive.
To do that say to your customer, “Going forward, I know there are a variety of ways that people like me follow up with people like you which can be in person, by phone, video calls, emails or text messages. Which is the mode you prefer most?”
Ok, we are nearly done. Here is our final “meaty” question. You are a person of enormous influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the greatest amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. :-)
Inspiring and teaching the world to listen more than it talks.
How can our readers follow you online?
Thank you for the interview. We wish you only continued success!
