Author Joey Klein: Getting An Upgrade; How Anyone Can Build Habits for Optimal Wellness, Performance, & Focus
Learn to manage your emotions better. We often don’t take the actions that are most critical for the outcomes we want to create because we end up putting time and energy on the things that are activating our emotions. Focus and emotions are hand in hand.
As a part of our series about “How Anyone Can Build Habits For Optimal Wellness, Performance, & Focus”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Joey Klein.
International Corporate Transformation Expert Joey Klein is an internationally known personal transformation expert, world champion martial artist, business CEO, and author of the book “The Inner Matrix: A Guide to Transforming Your Life and Awakening Your Spirit.” He travels the world teaching his technique of Conscious Transformation to support people in living healthy, happy, and more fulfilling lives. Learn more at www.JoeyKlein.com, and theinnermatrix.com.
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive into the main focus of our interview, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood backstory?
I grew up in Kansas in an ideal, middle-class kind of reality. I definitely enjoyed martial arts training. I was working full-time at an early age because if I wanted things like a car, insurance, or clothes, my dad and mom would definitely not just get those things. This gave me a good work ethic early on in high school: I went to school, then to work, did my homework each night, repeat and return. That supported me later on when I started my own business and became an entrepreneur, because I assumed that anything I wanted to create was on me.
Although I started out thinking I was going to go to college and go to business school, I quickly took a look around me and noticed that there wasn’t anybody around that I wanted to emulate who seemed to be fulfilled or loving life, so to speak. That motivated me to start my journey in an untraditional fashion, where I started asking “What’s the thing that makes people happy? What’s the thing that produces fulfillment from an inner reality, rather than looking outward to assume the typical money, success, family, story will translate to happiness and fulfillment?” Because I saw a lot of examples where that just simply wasn’t the case — people who had those things, yet were essentially not happy or fulfilled. So I really started wondering “What’s the formula for fulfillment?” That had me studying things like meditation, psychology, neuroscience, and what makes us tick and makes us happy.
What or who inspired you to pursue your career? We’d love to hear the story.
My career came by way of a lot of pain, a lot of suffering. There was a lot of disconnect, disharmony in the family. I wanted a way out of the discomfort and emotional suffering and I was just not sure what I wanted to do with myself. So I started meditating and studying personal development, psychology, and neurosciences, just trying to get myself in order and aligned. I had a mentor who requested that I start teaching and working with clients as a way to support myself after I’d learned how to manage my emotional space, my mental space, and my inner structures. I started taking clients on one at a time and that quickly grew to a full practice. We had a waiting list of 70-plus people and they were asking me to teach weekends and group classes so that their friends, family, and coworkers could engage in the work that I was doing with them one-on-one. So I agreed and started teaching small groups, which led to 40-plus weekends a year. And everything just kind of a took a life of its own on and continued to grow from there.
None of us can achieve success without some help along the way. Was there a particular person who you feel gave you the most help or encouragement to be who you are today? Can you share a story about that?
Dr. LaWanda Katzman-Staenberg, or Dr. Lu as she was called. She was psychologist and a mentor of mine who really got me started when I was 20. I met her and she asked me to teach her meditation and internal training techniques and she would kind of teach me about psychology. And so initially our relationship started out with a trade: me teaching her these things I learned, and her helping me out with psychology. And then she ended up referring me to a lot of her higher-profile clients, actors, actresses, movie producers, executives, and entrepreneurs. We collaborated, supporting those individuals. And something that I learned from her in that was the importance and the power of being able to do two things. Number one was supporting a person to name what’s theirs to do for themselves without an opinion or an agenda behind it. Because I think a lot of times when we try to support people, we have an idea of who they should become and what they should do, which is very different than having a conversation with somebody where they name what it is they essentially want for themselves, and what’s truly best for them without the bias of my opinion. She was always amazing at having a conversation with me that had me own what I wanted for myself, which was distinct from what she thought I should do, or any of my other mentors at the time thought I should do. When someone has a space where you can name what you’re going to do because you choose to do, it is a unique thing. I didn’t realize how unique it was because I was in my early adulthood. She was a lifelong mentor of mine up until 2018 or so when she passed away But throughout that entire time, I knew her, she was always amazing at holding space where I could name what I knew for myself.
The second thing was not just believing in me — it was beyond a mere belief. It was an expectation that I would fulfill on it. So after I named what I wanted for myself throughout the years, there was an expectation that I would fulfill on it, as in “I simply know this is yours to do as you know it’s yours to do, and so of course it will be fulfilled.” Having someone hold space for you in that way just gave me permission and held out not just hope, but knowing that it was possible.
Can you share the funniest or most interesting mistake that occurred to you in the course of your career? What lesson or take away did you learn from that?
I was invited to be the keynote speaker for an event with probably 800 or so people in the audience. And I remember I went there and I was talking about emotions and emotional intelligence. I remember I gave this very passionate, hour-long keynote. Usually I’d be received with applause or a standing ovation or something of that nature. And I remember I used to be terrified of public speaking and I had to really work myself up to get on stage back then. And at the end of this keynote address that I gave, there was no clapping. There was no standing ovation. There was not only silence; it seemed like there were 800 angry faces just staring at me. I think I managed to offend probably every single person in the audience. And what I learned that night was two things. Number one, I sort of faced my worst fear of public speaking — being humiliated or missing the mark. It happened, I lived through it, and at the end of the day, it just wasn’t that big a deal. The second thing I learned was the importance of understanding where someone is. Whether it’s an individual client or a large group of people, it was understanding my audience and making sure that I’m speaking to where people are at, not what I think they need to hear. There’s a big distinction and difference when it comes to influence and motivation between speaking to where somebody is at and communicating what they’re capable of hearing, as opposed to talking at someone and speaking what you think they need to hear. When you talk to somebody and say what you think they need to hear, not only do they not hear you, but you risk the potential of hurting somebody’s feelings or offending somebody.
The road to success is hard and requires tremendous dedication. This question is obviously a big one, but what advice would you give to a young person who aspires to follow in your footsteps and emulate your success?
Let go of the idea that you need to make a lot of money, and that you have to know what you are going to do at a early age. I’m not doing any of the things that I thought I would do when I was younger. And the thing that I did do was what has given me the ability to create what I created today. No matter what I did, I did it all-out. And I put the focus on developing myself, my skillset, my talent, and my capacity. That then led to money, being able to create impact and success in different ways. So rather than making decisions on what career you’re going to take based on money alone, ask the question: Am I going to learn something here? Am I going to grow? If we focus on developing ourselves first and make that the number one priority, then we’re going to be able to leverage the talent that we develop and that’ll translate to success later on. Yes, you want to develop the talent that’s specific to your area of interest, but understand that money isn’t what comes first; fame isn’t what comes first. Experience and talent come first, then money and recognition will follow.
Is there a particular book that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?
One book that made a significant impact on me was Dale Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” It was a great how-to guide on understanding that no matter what you are looking to succeed in, relationships are really the foundation of building what you want to build. The bigger the vision or the thing you want to accomplish, the more relationships you are going to have cultivate and, ultimately, leverage. That book really helped me to understand the importance of relationships, treating people well, understanding what other people’s needs are, and essentially caring for other people, and it showed me why getting good at that was so imperative for anything that I would ever want to succeed in.
Can you share your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Why does that resonate with you so much?
By Bruce Lee, the quote: “I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” I go back to that quote time and time again, especially in today’s reality, people gravitate so much to instant gratification and wanting instant success or instant affirmation or instant pleasure. They want it right away. Mastery or excellence is not about trying a lot of different things or instant gratification, but rather mastery and excellence are created by way of getting really, really good at something, mastering a set of skills.
Being a martial artist, when I used to train people, they always wanted to learn something new before they could even do the first thing really well. Whereas those of us who were really good, we literally would practice a set of techniques thousands and thousands of times, and then get good at that technique. Kind of like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. They didn’t shoot a basket a few times. They went to each different spot in the court and they would shoot the ball from that place literally thousands of times. so that when the game came, the talent was there to hit that mark and make that basket. The idea of mastery, I think, is lost on a lot of people today, but it is what ultimately creates greatness.
What are some of the most interesting or exciting projects you are working on now? How do you think that might help people?
One of the biggest things we’ve been developing this year is an online platform where people can access emotional intelligence training and mental thought strategy training from anywhere in the world. They just need their computer to be able to engage and get inside of these internal training techniques that will make them better at whatever they do. If we look at what drives our decisions, our choices, and our actions, the core of that is emotions. And when you look at really successful individuals, whether it’s a pro athlete or a high-level executive in a big company, what makes the difference between somebody who’s extraordinary as opposed to mediocre is usually not physical ability. When you get to upper level, executive positions within a company, everybody has a pretty equal set of business skills. The definer or the thing that really makes the distinction is emotional intelligence, their ability to manage their internal emotions and their thoughts inside of high stress situations. Very few people understand the necessity of developing internal competencies and how essential they are for driving external results and success. And so, giving people access to that via an online platform and a mobile app is super exciting. And then the second thing that I’m working on is producing a book that brings the science into the realities of why this stuff works. It’s another vehicle for for people to engage that training.
OK, thank you for all of that. Let’s now shift to the core focus of our interview. This will be intuitive to you but it will be helpful to spell this out directly. Can you help explain a few reasons why it is so important to create good habits? Can you share a story or give some examples?
At the end of the day, human beings are habit creatures. The way our brain and our nervous system functions, there’s nothing that we don’t do in a perpetual way. We’re doing the same set of things over and over. Somebody who wakes up today and is generally happy and fulfilled is gonna wake up tomorrow and be generally happy and fulfilled. And somebody who wakes up today sad or overwhelmed is often going to wake up tomorrow generally anxious and overwhelmed. Our internal experience tends to be a habit. And if we look at the things that we end up answering to in a practical sense externally, those are also a result of habits.
Individuals who build wealth do so because they save and they invest, month after month after month. Saving has become a habit. Whereas somebody who doesn’t generally build wealth or struggles financially, they tend to be in the habit of just spending what they make or spending more than they make, month after month after month. Our health is not determined by the bad thing we eat one time or the good thing we eat one time, but the way we eat every day has a huge influence and most likely defines what our health is going to look like 10 or 20 years from now.
So if we understand that and we accept that habit drives all of our behavior and is going to essentially get us all the results that we answer to, both in terms of our internal experience of life and the external outcomes that we produce, then we can start to ask how we can design these habits. When I think about a habit that I designed as opposed to a habit that I’m engaging unconsciously, one I’ve created and the other is happening on my behalf. A lot of us are inside of unconscious behaviors that we perpetuate again and again and again. And we’re really unaware that we’re doing it and the results that it’s getting. It’s an unconscious consistent behavior.
Anything significant didn’t happen overnight. If we win a world championship, or we build a hundred-million-dollar company, or we have a vibrant and connected family unit, that didn’t just happen one day. It was the result of consistent behavior over time that produced the outcome and the results. And so if we realize that our micro behaviors are what compound over time to create outstanding results, then we can really understand the power in a very practical way of defining the micro steps that I’m going to take today and repeat throughout the day. Then I’m going to do it again tomorrow because I know that there’s a high probability and likelihood that it’s going to produce the result that I aspire to over time. I can create conscious routines that are designed by me that I’m going to perpetuate consistently over time, because I can count on them getting me results over time, even though it may not hit the mark right away. It starts with a little micro step in developing a conscious routine and making sure it’s the right routine that will compound over time to produce an outstanding result.
How have habits played a role in your success? Can you share some success habits that have helped you in your journey?
Every extraordinary thing I’ve created in my life was not the result of a one-time event. It was the result of consistent behavior that produced an outcome. If I look at my martial arts and the world championships that I won, it wasn’t like I just showed up to a tournament and won the event. I woke up and I trained several hours every single day for 15, 16 years before the three years where I started winning.
I always asked myself, “Where do I want to be?” I didn’t ask myself, “What do I want to do?” or “What should I do today?” I always started with the outcome in mind. So if it pertained to my physicality, I would say “Where do I want to be when I’m 20? Where do I want to be when I’m 60?” When I was in my early 20s, my grandfather was dying of emphysema. He was very sick and the last few years of his life were pretty torturous. He sat on the couch and basically struggled to breathe. This was somebody who every day was a cowboy — he was riding his horse and he was a master carpenter, always building something. To be sedentary and sit on the couch and not be able to do anything was literally like living hell for this guy. To watch him struggling to breathe was just so painful for me. And he was in his early 60s. On the other side, I had my martial arts master, who was also in his 60s. And he was a better athlete almost than I was when I was in my teenage years. He was still able to train and kick above his head and had a ton of vibrancy and energy. And I remember looking at these two then, realizing where I wanted to be. I loved my grandfather, but I did not want to end up there in my early 60s. And it was obvious that they basically lived two different ways. My grandfather ate terribly. He had meat and potatoes every day of his life, drank a lot, and smoked a pack of unfiltered Camel cigarettes every day. And so those habits, those routines, translated to an outcome on the other side. My shifu meditated daily. He stretched regularly and was mindful about what he ate. I was clear that was what I wanted to emulate. And so when I looked at my health and my well-being, I really looked at training and wanting to develop my physicality as optimally as I could, because of what it would mean for fulfillment and vibrancy in life. I’m approaching 40 now, and I have more energy and physical vibrancy than a lot of people have in their 20s, as a result of consistently nurturing the body, as well as some achievements in martial arts, like winning world championships. That wouldn’t have been possible if it weren’t for consistent nurturing of the physical body in a particular way.
I have two routines that defined my capacities today that I still engage after engaging them for 20 years now. One, I constantly study and look to how can I better myself, whether that’s emotionally, physically, or in my business skills. I consistently read books and study with mentors to develop a greater capacity within myself, and I block off the time to make sure that that happens: several hours every day dedicated to developing myself.
The second thing is I made sure that I worked with transforming people’s challenges every day. I structured my career in such a way where I showed up eight hours a day, five days a week, looking to discover how to transform the challenge a person has, regardless of what that challenge is. And it was engaging with people one-on-one as a very intentional routine over the course of years that gave me the blueprint, ultimately, for being able to leverage that talent and information to teach weekend programs and to build a company and a movement around personal development. Without the hard work of just showing up and doing the same thing over and over again, that developed greater and greater talent and capacity, I would have never had something to leverage.
Speaking in general, what is the best way to develop good habits? Conversely, how can one stop bad habits?
The key is stopping a bad habit. It’s counterintuitive, and it’s essentially spending less time focused on the behavior you want to stop. This is counterintuitive because if somebody wants to stop eating sugar or stop overspending or eliminate debt or something like this, they often focus on the problem, at least as far as they perceive it. They focus on how they need to stop eating sugar, spend less, get out of debt. And the answers that they end up creating have perpetual focus on what they want to stop. So they say, I need to stop eating sugar, so I’m going to make sure that I don’t have it around the house or that I don’t put myself in situations where I’m going to have to deal with it. So the focus ends up being put on the habit they want to stop, which causes stress, anxiety, and overwhelm, and a lot of times shame and guilt get sprinkled in there too.
Instead we stop and we ask ourselves, “What do I want to create as an outcome? Why do I want to stop the behavior in the first place?” Before you even begin, ask yourself what you’re aspiring to fulfill and to create. I’m looking to be fit. I want to be having an athletic body. I want to be healthy. I want to build wealth. And I’d like to be able to take that wealth and buy a house, or take a vacation or provide for my family in a certain way. If we name what we’re wanting to create, then that gives us motivation inside of an emotional why. We want to begin with what’s important to us before we even start. If we are doing something because we believe we should do it, when we really just want to stop something, it’s unlikely we’re going to succeed because our emotional motivation isn’t lined up properly.
So step one, whether we are looking to create a new habit or stop a current one, is we’ve got to be clear why we’re doing it in the first place. What’s the outcome that we’re looking to achieve, so that we have an emotional reason. As many of us know, it takes a lot more energy to create a new habit or to stop a current habit than it does to maintain a habit. So rather than focusing on what we want to stop, we need to focus on what we’re going to do, and we need to know why we’re doing it. Step two, name what we’re going to do that will move us toward what we want to accomplish: I’m going to save $10 a week or $50 a month — whatever the behavior is that I want to start. Step three, name when it’s going to happen. I literally put it in my calendar like an appointment. And then focus on “What am I going to do today?” My job is just making sure I execute on the new behavior and acknowledge why I’m doing it. And then, right before I execute the new behavior, and again right after, I need to affirm that because I did this, it’s going to translate to the outcome I want over time. We need to emotionally connect what we are doing to an outcome occurring in the near future or in the later future. So if I invest my money, and every month I put $500 in my investment, I need to stop and celebrate that. To say “Because I did this, I’m going to be financially free one day.That’s going give me the capacity to spend more time with my loved ones and my family, be able to do the things I really aspire to do in my life.” And then follow up with acknowledging where it’s taking me.
Let’s talk about creating good habits in three areas, Wellness, Performance, and Focus. Can you share three good habits that can lead to optimum wellness. Please share a story or example for each.
The habits that we can engage in inside of wellness, performance, and focus: the strategy for executing them is the same. Health comes down to three components: nutrition, exercise, and rest and rejuvenation. Begin with which one is most out of balance, and then just pick one thing that you can execute on within that area. So say we train on eating well in January. And then we start exercising in February and we continue to eat well. And then we add rest, getting proper sleep. If you just did one new thing a month, you’d have a whole new life. If I decide nutrition is what I’m going to optimize, I would focus on hydration, drinking half of my body weight in ounces of water every day. Step two: I’m going to eat a vegetable for lunch and dinner. Step three: I’m going to add fruit to breakfast. And I’m just adding one element to nutrition at a time until essentially all those micro healthy routines have turned into a whole nutrition plan. What not to do is what most people do, which is look at a whole new way of eating. And then they try to reinvent everything about how they engage in nutrition every day. They’re good for a week and then they quit.
Can you help explain some practices that can be used to develop those habits?
Plan focused time for the things that are most important and make that a routine. Maybe it’s a half-hour or an hour where all you’re going to do is email. You’re not going to do anything else. Eliminate all the other distractions and just do the task that you’ve decided is important enough to have all of your focus. So plan focused time where you’re not going to put your attention on anything except for what you’re doing. You’re going to shut the phone off. You’re not going to look at other alerts. You’re going to eliminate distractions as best as possible. And you’re just going to do the things that are most important. This will teach the brain to focus and not skip from one place to the other. It will also make sure you’re more effective when it comes to these things that are important, that deserve all of your attention
The second thing we can do is learn to manage our emotions better, because often we end up not taking the actions that are most critical for the outcomes we want to create because we activated emotionally. And we end up putting time and energy and attention on the things that are emotionally important to us, which may or may not be the things at the time that are most important for the results that we want to get. We’ve all had the experience of waking up with the intention to work out tomorrow and then we wake up and we kind of feel overwhelmed. We feel a bit sad. We get anxious and we go to work instead because we feel like we don’t have time to work out. Focus and emotions are hand-in-hand. If we don’t train our emotions to align with what it is we’re choosing to focus on, then emotions are going to keep us from focusing on what is most important to us. Rest is also critical. There’s all kinds of research that keeps building around the importance of getting a solid seven to nine hours of sleep every night and making sure that we’re recharging the battery with things that we enjoy, even if it’s just 10 minutes a day. And so rest and rejuvenation translates to a greater capacity for focus as well.
Focus is by-product of inner capacity. A lot of people today are scattered. They focus on nothing for very long. A person within the first few minutes of waking looks at their cell phones, checks their email, and looks at their social media account. And then when they’re at work, they’re working at a job and their computer’s constantly dinging at them with some kind of message. Then all of a sudden the phone rings and somebody is walking in their office. And so in our lifestyle today, people very seldom are doing one thing at a time. And this is a big mistake because neurologically speaking, it’s actually impossible to multitask. So individuals that think that they’re great at multitasking are really just lying to themselves, because the brain literally has no ability to focus on two things at the same time. So when we drive down the road, we’re looking at the road and we’re focused on where we’re driving. But as soon as you take a phone call, you’re no longer a hundred percent focused on the road in front of you. Now, your brain is deciding in any given moment which is more important, the phone call or the road. And it’s switching back and forth. Then you add a third element to that, a passenger in the car. Now it’s flipping among three things. This becomes extremely inefficient. And the brain operates the same way, no matter what we’re up to. We’ve all had that experience where we kind of got lost in our daydream or a phone call, and we forget we’re driving. And you kind of have that spooky feeling like, “Wow, I’m glad nothing happened there.” That’s a key example of what’s going on when we’re trying to focus on multiple things at once.
Can you share three good habits that can lead to optimal performance at work or sport? Can you help explain some practices that can be used to develop those habits?
Name one thing that you’re going to do at a time and nail it right when it comes to performance. If I want to perform within my career and I want to expand within my career, then I need to name the skills I need to cultivate that are going make me better at my career. Start by researching information specific to what you want to optimize. So if I’m a sales person and I want to hit better numbers, then I should make a routine of reading one book on sales every month and actually do one thing from the book each month. Then the second month I read another book and do something from that book while continuing the one thing from the first book. If I do that over the course of the year, my capacity within sales is going to be exponentially increased. If I’m wanting to perform better inside of relationships, and I’d like to optimize my relationship with my significant other or my spouse, then I shouldn’t be reading books on sales. I should name what kind of relationship do I want to create and then read one book on relationships a month and execute one technique from each of those books and continue that process over six months or a year. If I get into the routine of reading and executing, reading and executing, then the time spent is going to translate into a much higher level of performance in the area of focus that I’m executing.
Can you share three good habits that can lead to optimal focus?
- Plan focused time where you are not going to put your attention on anything but what you are doing. This will teach the brain to focus and not skip from one place to the other and will also make sure you are most effective
- Learn to manage your emotions better. We often don’t take the actions that are most critical for the outcomes we want to create because we end up putting time and energy on the things that are activating our emotions. Focus and emotions are hand in hand.
- Rest. When we are tired it is really hard to focus. There is a ton of research that keeps building around the importance of getting to seven to 10 hours and doing things that we enjoy.
As a leader, you likely experience times when you are in a state of Flow. Flow has been described as a pleasurable mental state that occurs when you do something that you are skilled at, that is challenging, and that is meaningful. Can you share some ideas from your experience about how we can achieve a state of Flow more often in our lives?
Flow is essentially bringing two things together. First we have to build that talent in terms of where we want to experience flow, so that it becomes a reflex and not an event that we have to put a lot of thought into. So if you think about an athlete, they have to train a lot to get good at a set of skills so that they’re not thinking about throwing a ball, catching a ball, swinging a tennis racket — it’s just happening because they’ve trained the reflex. The second element to flow is to teach and train ourselves to be emotionally and mentally present with whatever we are doing at the time. Flow cannot occur if we’re at work, but thinking about our personal life, we have to learn to be emotionally and mentally present with whatever we’re doing at the time.
Ok, we are nearly done. You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good for the greatest number of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger.
I would bring the techniques of internal training to as many people as possible. In schools today we learn external skills — we learn math, how to read, how to balance a checkbook. In business, we learn the skills necessary for our career, whatever those things might be. Often what doesn’t get attention is how we manage our emotions, how we think clearly, how we can calm down our nervous system with our breath. And these internal skills drive our ability to mentally relate to what’s happening and position ourselves so that we empower ourselves no matter what’s happening outside of ourselves. These internal skills are probably more important to living a fulfilled life than having a high degree of capacity inside of skillsets. Because we could have a lot of money and be really good at a sport and have a lot of fame. But if we don’t manage our emotions and our mind well, then we’re sad and overwhelmed and we’re anxious as opposed to being happy, joyful, fulfilled, and at peace.
We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US, whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this, especially if we both tag them :-)
Two people come to mind. I think of Michael Jordan and Oprah Winfrey. Michael Jordan because he was able to reach a level where he was the best in the world at what he was doing at the time, basketball. All unanimously said he was the best. He had a work ethic and a unique way of seeing things. There was something about his way of being that had him not only perform at that level, but do so pretty much his entire career. It was almost like he wasn’t competing with other people; he was really just competing against himself to see what he could do. Oprah Winfrey came from nothing and created a worldwide influence and essentially served and supported millions upon millions of people throughout her career. So to get inside how she thought about what she was doing and what drove her to create what she created would be a great conversation to have. Both of those individuals came from humble beginnings and created something just outstanding. So what was it that they held within them that had them achieve that? It’s not like they started out with this crazy talent. It was clearly something they cultivated.
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Thank you for these really excellent insights, and we greatly appreciate the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success.