Bonnie Low-Kramen On How We Can Increase Women’s Engagement in Leadership and Management

An Interview With Vanessa Ogle

Senior leadership needs to decide that supporting female leaders is a priority and to advertise their stance. Once that happens, the website and all materials need to reflect that initiative, including job descriptions. These materials on the Careers tab of websites are the first contact with anyone considering working for a company.

Despite strides towards equality, women remain underrepresented in leadership and management roles across various sectors. In this series, we would like to discuss the barriers to female advancement in these areas and explore actionable strategies for change. We are talking with accomplished women leaders, executives, and pioneers who have navigated these challenges successfully, to hear their experiences, tactics, and advice to inspire and guide the next generation of women toward achieving their full potential in leadership and management roles. As part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Bonnie Low-Kramen.

Bonnie Low-Kramen’s 2022 TEDx talk is called “The Real Reasons People Quit.” Featured in Forbes, Bonnie is a bestselling author and workplace expert who trains Executive Assistants all over the world, a group that is dominated by women (93–97%). For 25 years, she worked as the Personal Assistant to Oscar winner Olympia Dukakis and is the author of two books, Be the Ultimate Assistant and Staff Matters. She is a consultant on workplace bullying for the World Administrators Summit and has written for Harvard Business Review. Traveling to 13 countries, Bonnie has trained the teams at Wharton, Starbucks, Amazon, and the British Parliament. She is known for her work to end gender discrimination, close the wage gap, and to break the toxic cycle of workplace bullying. Her goal is to make the workplace a better place for our children and grandchildren. She is a native New Jerseyan, a Rutgers University grad, and has seven grandchildren who will be in the workplace before too long.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit about your “backstory”? What led you to this particular career path?

I grew up a smart but shy little girl in suburban New Jersey. I didn’t have many friends and felt a little like an alien, somebody who didn’t fit in. I dove into books and television and dreamed of working in show business someday. (I thought I might fit in there.) When my mother took me to New York City at age 6 to see my first show at Radio City, I was hooked. As a senior in high school, I got cast as “Mame.” At Rutgers, I majored in English and Theatre which combined the things I loved. My mother worried that I would not be able to get a job. Somehow, I wasn’t worried and assured her I would figure out how to support myself. I kept my word.

Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you began your career?

This story happened in 2016. I had been teaching my Be the Ultimate Assistant workshops since 2011. My classes are filled with mostly women who are ambitious, high achievers, and yet, often lack confidence in their own abilities. Part of my goal with my teaching is to support each woman to truly see who they really are, to honestly see their gifts and talents and all that they bring to the table in their work. By the end of the workshop, I love that my students are walking and talking differently with this newfound awareness.

Debbie F. attended the Chicago workshop in March, 2016. She left the class on fire and very excited to go back to discuss her new ideas with her CEO executive. Within a week, she reported that her CEO was so impressed by her plans, that he gave her a substantial raise and full support to implement those well thought out plans. The next time I heard from Debbie was in June. The CEO needed to take an emergency 6 month leave of absence and he named Debbie the “Acting CEO” of the company. Needless to say, this was highly unusual and generally unheard of. It still is.

When the other executives asked him why he named Debbie, his assistant (!), the CEO said that he had complete confidence that she would act as his surrogate. She did that job for six months with great success. Debbie said that never would have happened without the training and I know that’s true. There is great power in women supporting other women in authentic and organic ways that make sense to them. I see what is possible when that happens. It happened to me.

Can you share a pivotal moment in your career that significantly influenced your path to leadership?

In 1996, I had been working with Olympia Dukakis for 10 years pretty much on my own, figuring things out by the seat of my pants. Winging it. By then, I was painfully aware of the lack of resources for all assistants, and certainly the much smaller subset of celebrity assistants and I was frustrated by it. And then I received a notice about a new group forming in New York City called New York Celebrity Assistants. I was living in New Jersey, my son was 8 years old, and I knew down to my toes that I had to belong to this group. I joined along with 7 others. A year later, I was asked to serve as President.

I had never served in an official leadership position before. I was nervous, and excited too. I asked Olympia for her opinion and I’ll never forget her response. “Do it! Do it! You have to do it! It will be so good for you.” I served for 2 years and then 13 more years on the Board. Until you have known what it feels like to officially be the person in charge, it really is impossible to know. That feeling stays with you and gives you empathy towards other leaders. Leadership is not an easy gig. New York Celebrity Assistants is now 28 years old and going strong. I am very proud to have been a part of that and grateful to have work with a female executive who supported me to grow. It is a lesson I have never forgotten.

None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story about that?

Olympia Dukakis was not famous when I met her on a snowy New Jersey night in 1985. She was interviewing me to work as the Public Relations Director at the Whole Theatre in Montclair. Olympia was the Producing Artistic Director and no one got hired at the theatre without her meeting them. I remember her strong handshake, her ripped jeans, and her strong face. Those eyes were laser focused on me as she asked, “Why do you want to be here?” I felt like the most important person in the world as she listened to my story. Olympia paused and said, “When can you start?”

Two years later, Olympia became famous and won her Oscar for the film Moonstruck costarring Cher. I had a front row seat for all of it and what a wild ride it was. That unforgettable year was 1988, the same year that Olympia helped her cousin Michael Dukakis run for President of the United States and the year I gave birth to my son Adam. A wild time indeed. Side note: We did all that without a computer or a cell phone. Over the years, I would joke that I wished Olympia would get nominated for another Oscar because we would do it so much better!

Olympia Dukakis was not only a gifted actress. She was also a gifted manager of people and a strong advocate for women. She wanted me by her side, knowing that people were saying things to me that they would never say to her. We worked together for 25 years.

Vivid memories: When Olympia would introduce me, she would say, “Meet Bonnie. She works with us.” (Rather than for us.) This show of mutual respect meant a great deal to me and to others. When she could sense I was afraid of something, she would say, “Don’t waste time on fear, Bons. Fear is boring.” And when I told her I was pregnant, I asked if she thought it was possible to be a great mom and a great worker? She didn’t hesitate. As the mother of three, she said, “I would rather hire a working mom over anyone else because they are forced to be organized.”

Olympia passed away on May 1, 2021. Her memorial event was held outdoors at the Delacorte Public Theatre in New York City. It poured rain the entire time and 250 people sat there in the rain paying tribute to her for two hours. That was a leadership lesson that will never leave me. Under my umbrella, I knew that there was no other place on Earth I would rather be on that night. I also couldn’t help wondering who would sit in the rain for me? Who would sit in the rain for you?

Is there a particular book that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?

There is only one book that I have ever gone to the bookstore on the day it came out to buy my copy. The date was March 12, 2013 and the book is Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg who was COO of Facebook at the time. The book is close by me right now, dog-eared, and filled with highlighter and sticky notes.

Sheryl wrote about what it really meant to be a working woman in the modern workplace and I had never read anything like it. I felt she was writing about me and about the women in my workshops and audiences. I could strongly relate to what she was writing. Here are some of the things she wrote.

“The most important career decision a woman makes is the choice of a partner.”

“Don’t leave before you leave.”

“If you are offered a seat on a rocket ship, don’t ask what seat.”

“You don’t get if you don’t ask. Women will make more money if they ask for it.”

Perhaps the most important thing she shared was the idea that women have to work three times harder than men to prove that they are worthy of leadership. When women are working to achieve leadership positions, she encouraged her readers to enthusiastically support these women not only to get there, but to stay there. Sheryl made the crucial point that everyone makes mistakes, but when women make mistakes, they are treated especially harshly, more harshly than men. Society is very quick to be critical of women and to tear them down. The time to support them is during the tough times too.

Now, when I see a high profile woman receiving intense criticism, I have trained myself to ask, “Would that be happening if it were a man?” It is a useful question.

There’s more. Hey, you asked. Sheryl revealed that it wasn’t until she became the only woman on the leadership team at Facebook that they installed parking spaces for pregnant women and an actual room for breast-feeding, as opposed to a broom closet. This really drove home the value of diverse voices at the decision-making table. Since then, I have heard Sheryl Sandberg speak in person and listened to her TED talks and I am more impressed than ever. I still quote from the book as it had a profound and lasting influence on me.

Do you have a favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Do you have a story about how that was relevant in your life or your work?

“If not now, when? If not you, who?” When I have times of self-doubt, I challenge myself with these two questions, essentially asking, what exactly am I waiting for? If the pandemic proved anything to us without a doubt, it is that time is fleeting and none of us is guaranteed tomorrow.

I’ve had times in my life when I’ve been at a crossroads, with an important decision to make. I had to realize that there may never be the “perfect” time to act. One of the most life-changing decisions for me was the one to get a divorce after 27 years of marriage. Finding my voice began with a whispered, “I think we need to get a divorce.” It took everything I had to muster up the courage to speak those eight words. I knew that just saying them would throw a grenade into my life and that nothing would ever be the same. I was right.

Once it was over, I felt a freedom like I had never known. Living through this experience helps me to relate to women and men who struggle with bullies and are perplexed by what to do next. I understand what happens to your soul when you are torn down on a daily basis. These behaviors happen in the workplace just like they happen at home. Never again will I allow attacks on my self-confidence and self-esteem, but I will never forget or deny how it feels. This knowledge helps me to help women and I feel privileged to do so.

How have you used your success to make the world a better place?

Before she passed away at age 89, one of the things my mother Ruth Low would say is, “Just try to leave the world a little better than the way you found it.” I am working to make the workplace a better place through my writing, teaching, speaking, and coaching. Since I spend my life in rooms of mostly women, I am passionately committed to ending workplace bullying and to closing the wage gap. My mission is to light fires inside women to break through the socialization we’ve all had to see our way clear to behave in ways that support women to succeed.

My work includes working with men to be enthusiastic allies and mentors to women, not because it is nice to do but because it is smart to do. To support women to be treated respectfully and to be paid properly will mean a positive difference for whole families. When women get onto a different vision for themselves, to stay open and curious, to question, to not automatically take no for an answer, the world changes for the better. I see it happening before my eyes and I am optimistic about the future. By the time my seven grandchildren are in the workplace, my fervent hope is that it will less likely that they will be bullied, less likely that they will be discriminated against, and more likely that they will be paid properly. If I can help move the needle on these things, that will have been time well spent.

Ok, thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. According to this report, only about 31.7% of top executive positions across industries are held by women. This reflects great historical progress, but it also shows that more work still has to be done to empower women. In your opinion and experience what is currently holding back women from leadership and management?

There are several factors holding women back from leadership roles, despite more women than men receiving college degrees. Here are 6.

1. Time. The data is clear that women are still responsible for 6 hours more of housework and child/parent caregiving per week than men. Male dominated corporate cultures still reward working long hours, hours that women do not have.

2. Socialization. The way women are socialized as young girls hurts us as grown women. We are told to “know your place” and taught to view women as competition and adversaries rather than allies and collaborators. Too often, a woman’s default behavior is to be defensive and suspicious towards other women. These destructive and self-sabotaging behaviors hold women back. Women benefit from having positive female role models from whom they can learn a different way of behaving. Men need that too!

3. Stubborn stereotypes, cultural norms, and slow accountability. Company leaders are slow to set new norms within the culture that makes it totally acceptable for women to rise through the ranks without diminishing talk of “being promoted because she is sleeping with someone,” stereotypical comments on appearance, and harsh judgments about behaviors. Powerful men take advantage of women because they often feel entitled to do so.

• In 2017, the #metoo and #timesup movement began with the Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein being accused of sexual assault by actresses who said he was abusing his power to make or break their careers. As part of his defense, he said, “That was just the way business was done. Everyone was doing it.” In 2024, Weinstein is in jail for assaulting over 100 women.
• In 2021, Yoshiro Mori was forced to step down as the Tokyo Olympics chief because he said that he did not want women on the Board because they “talk too much and meetings take too much time.”

4. The double bind is real. Women can be assertive, and they are accused of being aggressive. A woman takes charge and she is called a bossy you-know-what and a man who takes charge is a strong leader. A woman can be pretty but not too pretty. Women are judged more harshly than men.

5. Lack of structured mentorship programs. Women do not suddenly get named to be the CEO. There is a path that she needs to take that typically requires a sponsor and/or mentors. For example, Sheryl Sandberg had Larry Summers, Treasury Secretary under Bill Clinton, who believed in her and helped open doors.

6. Lack of self-confidence. Most women are socialized when they are young to not advertise their ambition out of fear of appearing too full of themselves. Women are bearing the wounds from being told to “stay in your lane” or “if we want your opinion, we will ask for it.” Women get interrupted six times more than men do and men often take credit for a woman’s work without repercussion and this eats at confidence. Women are starving from the lack of praise and positive feedback from both men and women. Frankly, it is lonely at the top, especially for women. For women, community support is essential for success.

This might be intuitive to you but I think it will be helpful to spell this out. Can you share a few reasons why more women should become leaders and managers?

The data clearly shows that women rate better than men on many leadership competencies, especially ones that requires high EQ — emotional intelligence. These include taking initiative, develops others, practices self-development, collaboration, teamwork, and motivates and inspires others. Male leaders will benefit individually and companies will benefit as business entities through inviting these talented and skilled women to the table. The data confirms that a more diverse group (gender, age, and ethnicity) is a more creative, resourceful, innovative, and profitable one. It makes complete sense to have women in leadership as they will be role models for other talented women who are looking for an inclusive company in which to work. Women make superb leaders when, 1. Supported to have the opportunity to do so and 2. Are not vilified when they make a mistake.

Can you please share “5 Things We Need To Increase Women’s Engagement in Leadership and Management?”

1 . Senior leadership needs to decide that supporting female leaders is a priority and to advertise their stance. Once that happens, the website and all materials need to reflect that initiative, including job descriptions. These materials on the Careers tab of websites are the first contact with anyone considering working for a company.

PepsiCo, Dell, and Synchrony all do a great job of showing the world that they stand for women’s advancement. Synchony offers leaders financial incentives for promoting women. Microsoft and IBM are leading the way for encouraging young women to pursue STEM careers.

Indra Nooyi led PepsiCo as CEO for 12 years from 2006. In her book, My Life in Full, and in interviews, she candidly shares how women are never quite enough and that there is a very real double standard in play. “Women are either too loud or too soft, too feminine or too masculine.” She was committed to leveling the playing field for women at PepsiCo and the website shows it in photos, videos, in language, and in programs for advancement.

2 . Family and women-friendly policies need to be created and enforced in companies, such as education around sexual harassment training and anti-racism and discrimination. Being a working mother is something to be celebrated rather than a reality to be hidden or shamed.

Hilton, Hubspot and YouTube are companies that have policies providing financial assistance for adoption and generous family leave.

Susan Wojcicki passed away on Aug 9, 2024. She was the CEO of YouTube from 2014–2023. However, it was in 1999 when she rented her garage to Larry Page and Sergey Brin to start Google and she was 4 months pregnant with her first of five children that her extraordinary journey began. Susan took a chance on these guys who promised that they would support her to be a successful working mother. Susan became Google’s VP of Marketing.

Susan helped create the policy that would entitle any Google employee who has a baby to 18 weeks of paid maternity leave. She was the first person to take it and then return to work. This became front-page news which is how I learned about Susan Wojcicki and her advocacy for working parents. In Dec, 2014, Susan wrote an article for the Wall Street Journal telling her story and making the point that to give fair family leave would mean more women would return to work. In fact, the new 18-week policy resulted in 50% lower employee resignations. https://lnkd.in/dgjHnVFE

Other company leaders have followed Susan’s lead, but progress in family leave is still slow. In 2024, the United States is still the only country that does not have a national policy for paid leave. However, 13 states plus the District of Columbia all have mandated paid family leave. It’s optional for the rest.

3 . Pay Transparency, pay equity, and closing the wage gap need to be a normalized part of the culture along with open communication about the details of these plans to level the financial playing field. Hiring practices can reflect these initiatives to pay women fairly rather than the lowest amount they will agree to.

CitiGroup and Google are a part of an increasingly growing group of companies that are publicly posting salary ranges for all jobs and are spending money to close the wage gap. In 2018, Marc Benioff, CEO of Salesforce at the time, famously appeared on the TV show 60 Minutes to discuss how they intended to close the gap.

• In Hollywood, actors Chadwick Bozeman, Chris Pratt, and Benedict Cumberbatch have all taken pay cuts in order for their female costars to earn the same as them.
• In the WNBA, superstar Caitlin Clark is making $76,000 in her rookie year (2024) compared to NBA star Stephen Curry who made $3 million in his 2009 rookie year.

4. Investment in Education and Professional Development. Education on many subjects is crucial for both men and women at all levels in order to raise awareness and build bridges of empathy and communication between the genders. Melinda Gates is donating $1 billion dollars to support women’s access to leadership roles. Necessary educational programs include;

• Sexual Harassment Training
• Anti-Bullying Training
• Diversity Training
• Leadership Training

Johnson & Johnson is one of the best examples of a company whose leaders strongly believe in professional development and employee resource groups as champions of the staff, especially women.

5 . Build the pipeline of female talent starting in colleges and business schools. Male and female students need to be hearing about gender issues in the workplace while they are in college through professionals who are guest speakers.

Cisco, Microsoft, Spotify, Adobe, and Boston Consulting Group all partner with business schools and have strong leadership development programs.

In your opinion, what systemic changes are needed to facilitate more equitable access for women to leadership roles?

Working mothers must be enthusiastically supported with childcare facilities, funding for childcare, and a company culture that normalizes working parents. The quality of a woman’s contribution can no longer be measured by the number of hours she is able to clock in. Policies must be made transparent and supported at the highest levels in order to avoid an us vs. them dynamic and accusations of favoritism from the team.

What strategies have you found most effective in mentoring and supporting other women to pursue leadership positions?

Removing the degree requirement on job descriptions is a major development in supporting women to pursue leadership positions. When company leaders invest money in the support of networking groups rather than simply tolerating their existence, that sends a strong message of importance and respect. This message of support needs to be reiterated and regularly reinforced from the CEO level on down.

How would you advise a woman leader about how to navigate the challenges of being a woman in a leadership role within a male-dominated industry?

Transparent communication — written, verbal, in-person — will be key to winning the trust of the staff. Meet with the team as a group and also 1:1. When Hubert Joly was the CEO of Best Buy, he went into a store, wore a blue sales shirt, and joined the sales team on the selling floor. He asked questions and listened to the answers. That is great advice for all leaders, women and men. Talk to your people. You don’t have to have all the answers. Your team wants you to be honest and vulnerable enough to listen to ideas. A woman leader will benefit from having strong male allies who can enthusiastically speak to her value and performance.

How do you balance the demand for authoritative leadership with the stereotypical expectations of female behavior in professional settings?

Authoritative leadership does not work and it is especially disastrous for women. Women are judged far more harshly than men, under the best of circumstances. I recommend addressing the stereotypes head on and clarify what the expectations are under your leadership. As the CEO of Campbell Soup, Doug Conant was famous for his leadership philosophy: Be tenderhearted with people and tough minded on standards. My advice is to be crystal clear about expectations and put them in writing. Once they are agreed upon, there is something to lean on when issues arise.

You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good for the greatest number of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger.

Do One, Teach One Mentoring Programs in college. This program is meant to develop strong empathetic leaders who will not lose touch with what truly motivates people. Students will be randomly assigned another student to spend time mentoring and another student who will be their mentor. At the end of the semester, the students will write a paper about what they learned from each experience that they will use in the future. The goal here is that leaders need to learn much sooner what really matters to their staff and that knowledge comes from talking 1:1 with them. A Zenger Folkman poll shows that the average age that a leader receives their first training in managing people is age 46 which is much too late.

How can our readers further follow your work online?

I welcome you to connect with me on LinkedIn and to visit my website blog.

Thank you for these fantastic insights. We greatly appreciate the time you spent on this.

About The Interviewer: Vanessa Ogle is a mom, entrepreneur, inventor, writer, and singer/songwriter. Vanessa’s talent in building world-class leadership teams focused on diversity, a culture of service, and innovation through inclusion allowed her to be one of the most acclaimed Latina CEO’s in the last 30 years. She collaborated with the world’s leading technology and content companies such as Netflix, Amazon, HBO, and Broadcom to bring innovative solutions to travelers and hotels around the world. Vanessa is the lead inventor on 120+ U.S. Patents. Accolades include: FAST 100, Entrepreneur 360 Best Companies, Inc. 500 and then another six times on the Inc. 5000. Vanessa was personally honored with Inc. 100 Female Founder’s Award, Ernst and Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award, and Enterprising Women of the Year among others. Vanessa now spends her time sharing stories to inspire and give hope through articles, speaking engagements and music. In her spare time she writes and plays music in the Amazon best selling new band HigherHill, teaches surfing clinics, trains dogs, and cheers on her children.

Please connect with Vanessa here on linkedin and subscribe to her newsletter Unplugged as well as follow her on Substack, Instagram, Facebook, and X and of course on her website VanessaOgle.