Dr Joe-Joe McManus On How To Create More Inclusive Workplaces
An Interview With Rachel Kline
Fund it and build the DEI team like you want it to succeed. Learn vigorously about the benefits of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Be clear about goals, responsibilities, and accountability, as you would for any other initiative you want to succeed. Be honest about challenges AND address those challenges accordingly. Network and collaborate in order to accelerate progress and organizational success.
Creating inclusive workplaces is crucial for any organization that wants to get the most out of its talent. This means creating an environment where everyone feels like they belong, has equal opportunities, is empowered to do their best work, and feels comfortable making requests and contributing ideas. In this series, we asked prominent HR and business leaders about the steps they take to create more inclusive workplaces. As a part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Joe-Joe McManus.
Dr. Joe-Joe McManus serves as an Executive Advisor on antiracism and inclusive excellence. He consults, writes, and speaks widely on topics at the intersections of antiracism, diversity and inclusion, and leadership development. His new book, A Brother’s Insight: Guidance on Defeating Racism and Advancing Freedom, offers guidance on living an impactful antiracist life.
Over the past three decades, Dr. Joe-Joe’s work has been largely behind the scenes, focused on developing programs and policy, and advising leaders on promoting systemic change toward inclusive excellence. McManus has held faculty, staff, and executive roles in higher education, including Chief Diversity Officer. He has served at an HBCU, an international university, an Ivy League institution, and at the university system level. He has also lectured, served on panels, presented, and consulted across the U.S. and internationally for more than three decades.
McManus serves on multiple boards including the National Advisory Council for the National Conference on Race and Ethnicity (NCORE) and the Board of Directors of Diversity 2000 (D2K). Previously, he served as an Expert in the development of the Global Diversity & Inclusion Benchmarks (GDIB), on the Board of Advisors for the Floyd Rights Campaign, and on the Board for the National Association for Multicultural Education (NAME).
A first-generation college student, Dr. McManus earned his Ph.D. in Educational Leadership from Florida A&M University (FAMU).
Thank you so much for your time! I know that you are a very busy person. Before we drive in, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your ‘backstory’ and how you got started?
I became interested and involved with issues related to diversity, equity, and inclusion as a kid. I come from a diverse family and grew up in the back of the local liquor store in a white flight town south of Boston, Massachusetts. Racism, anti-Semitism, and classism surrounded us as children. A desire to change that reality is what guided my education and ultimately my career doing antiracism and diversity, equity, and inclusion work.
For the past thirty-five years or so I have been an advocate for racial justice and in opposition to bigotry and systemic oppression in general. For more than twenty-five of those years I have worked primarily in higher education. I served in faculty, staff, and administrative roles, and for the past five years or so I have focused on advising leaders across sectors on strategic diversity, equity, and inclusion leadership or what we refer to as “inclusive excellence” in higher education.
I wrote my new book, A Brother’s Insight, in response to a challenge from my daughter to do more, specifically in the struggle against racism and white supremacy. In the book, I focus on how each of us can make a significant difference as individuals by using our unique voices and talents to promote change within our circles of influence and that we can do even more when we raise our voices together.
It has been said that our mistakes can be our greatest teachers. Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
Having grown up at the packie (that’s Massachusetts-speak for liquor store), I developed what some might consider a colorful vocabulary. Aside from learning how to say things like “cold beer” in multiple languages, I also picked up an affinity for cursing. That proved to be an issue when I began teaching and doing speaking engagements. Needless to say, I learned how to communicate without the use of my favorite four letter words. That being said, I still have an appreciation for the well-placed expletive.
None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful for who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story?
Aside from my parents, of course, there are far too many to name. I clearly needed a great deal of help along the way. The person who comes to mind at the moment is Ronald Joe, a retired Army Colonel who was the Commandant at the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute (DEOMI), where I did my college internship. The reason he comes to mind right now is because DEOMI has been critical to the military providing career opportunities and advancement for people of color, women, and other marginalized groups.
Col. Joe helped me to find my path as a professional focused on antiracism and inclusive excellence. He introduced me to other mentors, like Jane Elliott and Prof. James Eaton. He was also one of the first to encourage me to consider Florida A&M University (FAMU) for my doctoral studies — and thank goodness for that! FAMU taught me what excellence in higher education looks like.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
“I may not always be perfect but I’m always me.” I have never seen an attribution for that quote, but my brother Kacey carried it around on a card in his wallet. Kacey was the most genuine and humble person I’ve ever met. To me, the quote is a reminder that regardless of what we aspire to, it is important to remember and honor who we are, where we come from, and those who have nurtured us along the way. It is about humility, which I value greatly both personally and in the work I do.
Thinking back on your own career, what would you tell your younger self?
I would try to help my younger self understand that we are all more than our worst days and most regrettable mistakes. When I was a younger professional, I was overly critical of myself and others. We are all wrong at times and we all make mistakes and missteps along the way. What matters is whether you learn from those experiences and actively work to do better. This is true in life and specifically in the work we do to address diversity, equity, and inclusion issues. Experience has taught me that extending grace provides space for learning and growth, at home, in school, and in the workplace.
Let’s now move to the central part of our interview. What systems do you have to ensure your workplace is as inclusive as possible?
I work with multiple organizations, across sectors, but the systems they have developed have some key components in common. First, they develop processes for ensuring the most diverse pools of candidates possible — whether this be for admissions, membership, or hiring. They also develop and maintain policies and processes to ensure an inclusive environment that values diverse perspectives, experiences, and approaches. Finally, they all understand their responsibility with respect to social sustainability. Meaning, they actively work to address social inequities and their environmental impact in order to ensure a more sustainable future.
Based on your experience and success, what are your top five tips for creating more inclusive workplaces? Please share a story or an example for each.
1 . Fund it and build the DEI team like you want it to succeed. Far too often, the lofty mission statements and charges for diversity, equity, and inclusion are not adequately funded and/or not appropriately staffed. These are all too common examples of strategic neglect. This undermines not only the work at a particular organization, it also does damage to the field and slows progress in general.
2 . Learn vigorously about the benefits of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Developing a shared understanding that in order to receive the benefits of a diverse, equitable, and inclusive organization is critical. An organization must have a full range of diversity in the workplace, ensure that all are safe to share differing perspectives, and understand that those perspectives must be incorporated into decision making processes in order to earn the benefits.
3 . Be clear about goals, responsibilities, and accountability, as you would for any other initiative you want to succeed. Strategic planning requires, among other things, setting measurable and attainable goals, establishing responsibility, and holding leadership accountable for results. As with funding and staffing, this is not difficult to understand. It is a measure of whether or not an organization is actually serious about DEI or just putting on a PR or marketing show.
4 . Be honest about challenges AND address those challenges accordingly. There are systemic challenges to diversity, equity, and inclusion. For example, disparities in our educational systems can have an impact on the diversity of potential employees. Identifying this challenge is not an end point, it is a starting point. Next, the organization should work to find and act upon opportunities to help eliminate the educational disparities.
5 . Network and collaborate in order to accelerate progress and organizational success. There are conferences, associations, and professionals across sectors who specialize in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Tap into these networks and opportunities to partner in order to avoid mistakes that have been made before and accelerate success by engaging with colleagues and advisors who can share valuable experience to help your organization innovate and succeed.
Can you share 3 or 4 of the most common mistakes you have seen businesses make while trying to become more inclusive? What should one keep in mind to avoid that?
1. Hiring underprepared DEI leadership. Specifically, hiring internal DEI leadership candidates who know the organizational culture and have demonstrated interest in diversity issues but lack the educational background and/or professional experience necessary to strategically lead a diversity, equity, and inclusion team. We wouldn’t hire a Finance Officer who happens to like money and has been working in the organization for a long time but doesn’t have the requisite education and experience in finance. The way to avoid this is to have the same high expectations of DEI professionals as you do when hiring or promoting professionals in any other field.
2. Lack of inclusion and transparency in strategic DEI planning, data collection, and decision making. Colleagues at all levels of an organization want and deserve to have their perspectives heard during the process of developing diversity, equity, and inclusion goals and action items. Ensuring that the planning process, progress markers, and adjustment decisions are communicated well helps all involved to understand and feel included in DEI efforts, minimizing negative reactions fueled by misunderstandings and feelings of exclusion.
3. Not considering context is another common mistake. Our organizations do not exist in a vacuum. It is important to understand the cultural, socioeconomic, and political systems that exist outside our organizations and how they impact our colleagues, our work, and our outcomes. When we are working to develop more equitable hiring practices or trying to ensure an inclusive work environment, success requires taking the impact of external systems and realities into account.
How do you measure the effectiveness of your DEI efforts?
The metrics differ depending on the sector and needs of an organization. In higher education, for example, we measure everything from the diversity of applicants and incoming students to persistence through graduation; the diversity of perspectives offered in courses and campus climate data; and the graduation rates and upward mobility of graduates. Within corporations, the metrics may include the diversity of hiring pools and among employees at each level of the organization, climate and inclusion measures, innovation and decision-making metrics, as well as a variety of data related to products and services and their impact on community and customer engagement.
The purpose of measuring the effectiveness of diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts is to determine whether policies and practices provide equitable opportunities and ensure an inclusive workplace for everyone, and provide the benefits of diverse experiences and perspectives to the organization. Ultimately, diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives work to ensure that people are hired, experience the workplace, are provided opportunities for growth, and are promoted based on merit — meaning without the hinderance of any interpersonal biases or systems of oppression.
Are there other organizations you admire for their approach to DEI? Can you please explain why?
Right now, I admire every organization that is standing up for diversity, equity, and inclusion. There is significant political and, in many cases, financial and/or legal pressures to roll back the progress that we have made toward more equitable and inclusive schools, universities, and workplaces. Standing up to these regressive policies requires courage and a commitment to ending discrimination and oppression. So, at the moment, I admire and appreciate every educational institution, business, non-profit, state and local government, that stands up for all of us — not just a privileged few — by continuing their diversity, equity, and inclusion work.
What do you do to address Proximity Bias? How do you ensure remote workers are treated the same as onsite workers and have equal access to opportunities?
First, let me provide some context. The discourse around proximity bias is currently being distorted by some significant influencers with ulterior motives. There are profit motives, for example, for those who own office buildings to oppose remote and hybrid work. There is a power motive at play with respect to managers and executives who are able to exert more control over workers in person. There are also false narratives being promoted by powerful individuals, like the idea that it is unfair to those who have to work in person that some others are able to work remotely. This is an example of the tired old divide and conquer methodology which has been used to oppress people for centuries. We shouldn’t fall for it.
What we do know is that in most cases remote and hybrid work does not decrease productivity, in fact it often increases productivity while also improving morale. In addition, as noted in the Harvard Business Review, “Professionals from marginalized communities still suffer from discrimination and microaggressions in the office. Working remotely lessens the chance that they will encounter these prejudices and the pressure to constantly code-switch. For many BIPOC workers, permanent remote work equates to better mental health.” (Tsipursky, What Is Proximity Bias and How Can Managers Prevent It?, Harvard Business Review. October 04, 2022)
Is Proximity Bias a thing? Sure, but everyone returning to in-person work won’t solve this problem. Before the pandemic, when pretty much everyone was working in-person, there were some who were physically located close to those with decision making power and others who were not. The concern extends beyond the physical workplace as well. Those who have closer proximity to decision makers outside the workplace in shared communities, social spaces, and through social ties have an advantage.
Of course, I recommend developing awareness and organizational processes to address proximity bias. This includes addressing how it intersects with racial, gender, and other biases. This is the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion. My caution is that we must resist being manipulated into losing the freedom and benefits of remote and hybrid work by false narratives.
We are very blessed to have some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world whom you would love to have a private lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this.
Issa Rae. There are plenty of folks I’d love to break bread with, but with respect to the categories you’ve noted, Issa Rae comes to mind. She is phenomenal at communicating a message through storytelling, she seems remarkably adept at getting difficult things done, and she gets it. I can always benefit from learning more about how to reach people and get things done against the odds. Not only do I believe I could learn a great deal from Issa Rae (I don’t know why I feel the need to keep using her full name — it just sounds right), but I love her directness and sense of humor.
I love this question because I used to have conversations with people I called “mentors in my head.” You know, folks whose books I loved or who just seemed incredibly wise, and who I was also sure I would never meet. I would try to imagine, based on what I had read or heard from them, how they might answer my most pressing questions. Based on those imaginary conversations, I have no doubt that this imaginary lunch with Issa Rae would be a whole lot of fun, I’d learn a lot, and of course it would be hella awkward.
How can our readers further follow your work?
My website — www.drjoejoe.com or on LinkedIn
Thank you so much for sharing these important insights. We wish you continued success and good health!
