Emily Sander of Next Level Coaching On The Book That Changed Her Life

An Interview With Sara Connell

Pay it forward. Help someone else going through the same things you’ve been through whenever you can. Use that experience of yours for good. Remember how it feels to do something for the first time; remember the fear that comes with it. Be more empathetic. Actively look for ways to bring other people up. Open doors for them. When you do that, every time that other person succeeds, you succeed. Whenever they get better, you get better.

Books have the power to shape, influence, and change our lives. Why is that so? What goes into a book that can shape lives? To address this we are interviewing people who can share a story about a book that changed their life, and why. As a part of our series, I had the pleasure of interviewing Emily Sander.

Emily Sander is a C-Suite Executive and Founder of Next Level Coaching.

As an ICF-Certified Coach, she guides clients toward new perspectives that enable them to adapt and evolve as leaders.

She is the author of the book, Hacking Executive Leadership.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit about your “backstory” and how you grew up?

Certainly. A fun fact about my “backstory” is that I’m adopted! I was born in Seoul, South Korea and brought over to The States as a baby. I grew up in Seattle, Washington. I had a great family growing up. My parents were smart, supportive, and very hard-working people. They were successful in the business worlds within their respective fields. Early on, I had great real-life examples of strong leadership values — how to lead with integrity, how to be a servant leader, how to engage with people in a positive way, how to apply common sense, and so on.

As a kid, I remember assuming that everyone automatically got these things when they became “grown-ups.” I’ve since learned that is definitely not the case!

I went to school in Seattle and the day after graduating from university, I flew out for a summer congressional internship in Washington, D.C. It was a great experience — I was in a house with nine other interns from around the country; I met with 4-star generals, saw political figures from our country and other countries around the halls of Congress, and the Korean delegation loved me when they came to visit the Congressman and saw me at the front desk.

After that, I went back to Seattle and worked for some small companies you may have heard of called Microsoft and Amazon. I was one of the testers of the very first version of the Kindle device before anyone knew what an “e-reader” was. Then, I worked in a series of small-to-medium technology-based businesses. That’s really where I cut my teeth and got into leadership, managing people, managing teams, and all of that.

Let’s talk about what you are doing now, and how you achieved the success that you currently enjoy. Can you tell our readers a bit about the work you are doing?

I currently serve as Chief of Staff for a small digital marketing agency. Everyone asks what exactly that means. My short answer is: a Chief of Staff is like that plastic thing on the top of a six-pack of soda — it holds everything together, in this case, our executive leadership team. It’s my job to make sure everyone is aligned, focused, resourced appropriately, etc. I’m also a leadership coach and get to work with business leaders and professionals from all over the world, which I absolutely love.

There are so many factors that went into how I got to where I am today. But I will say, a constant thread throughout everything was my desire to get better. That drive of always wanting to grow and improve, pushing myself to be my best — and to be the next best version of myself. This inspired me to learn new skills, sign up for courses on concepts I knew little or nothing about, apply what I had learned to become more of the type of person I wanted to be, and craft the leadership style I wanted to espouse.

I was often the youngest in my cohort and I felt like I had a lot to prove. So, if I didn’t know something or I hadn’t done something before, that wasn’t an excuse to throw my hands up in the air and stop, that meant I needed to go figure it out. I was always looking for the edge. I constantly asked myself, “How can I make myself better so I can serve my team and those around me better?” I was always chasing excellence. I’m talking aggressive self-improvement.

I’ve calmed down a little bit in the last year or two, been taking it a little easier on myself these days. However, that drive and curiosity will always be part of me. I attribute a lot of my success to that.

You are a successful leader. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?

Well, we talked about self-improvement and staying on your growth edge. That’s one for sure. You can look at examples at a macro level. If companies aren’t improving, innovating, or adapting, chances are they’re going to be overrun by competitors. It can also be looked at from an individual level. Take two people for instance. One of them initially goes to school but then just stops. Stops reading, learning, or taking online courses. Where do you imagine that person is going to be in, say, five years? The second person does not only go to school but becomes a lifelong learner, reading books, watching relevant videos, and talking to people in his field and on a variety of topics. Where is that person going to be in the same time frame? If you think about these two people and their trajectories, there is going to be a huge divergence, especially in the long run.

Confidence is another trait. This one is tricky though, and people often misunderstand it. I don’t mean confidence in an arrogant, braggadocio way. I don’t mean confidence in an “I-don’t-ever-feel-scared” way. It’s the determination to keep going when you put yourself out there in your pursuit of something new and the feelings of anxiety and pressure come, threatening to tear you down. You’re confident you’re able to handle it; confident that you’ll be able to figure it out. You trust the process; you trust yourself to succeed.

The confidence I’m referring to is a deeply rooted self-reliance and grounding in who you are and what you’re about. So, instead of walking into a room and having to think you’re better than everyone else, it’s walking into a room and not having to compare yourself at all.

Finally, I would say being decisive is a trait all successful leaders have. One of the important elements of decision-making is striking the appropriate balance between deciding quickly or in a timely manner and gathering the right information. Many people get stuck in analysis paralysis and don’t act when they need to; sometimes, they’re scared of making the “wrong” decision and just don’t do anything. Others on the other end of the spectrum may be inclined toward knee-jerk decisions; a lot of people get emotional and decide to do something while in that state.

So, depending on what the decision is, assess how quickly the decision needs to be made. A great rule of thumb from James Clear is this: if a decision is reversible, make it quickly; if it’s irreversible, err on the side of slower decisioning. When you take more time, you can collect more information. Ask yourself the following: do I have the relevant information? Am I considering the right factors? Am I talking to the right people to get their feedback? Do I have good perspective and headspace to make this call? Of course, there are times when you have to make a decision with limited information in a time crunch. In those moments, make the best decision you can with all the information you have at the time and keep going.

What’s the WHY behind the work that you do? Please share a story about this if you can.

Great question. I often work with my clients on finding their “why.” Most people can give you a surface-level “why” pretty quickly. However, it usually takes some digging to find your “Big Why.” But taking the time and putting in the work to find that is a powerful thing. I’ll share mine.

I believe that our purpose is to put good into the world. You can do that in several ways. I believe everyone has unique gifts, talents, and skill sets. I feel like I contribute at my best through coaching. When I see an “aha” moment on someone’s face; whenever I encourage them or challenge them in the right ways, when I can offer a person a new way of thinking about something that helps them, it’s very rewarding. I wake up excited about what I get to do that day. I go to sleep feeling fulfilled. I’ve put that little droplet of goodness out into the universe in my own unique way. More to it, I’ve helped someone else be at their best and move towards contributing to their team, their community, and the world at large. If everyone was doing this, the world would be a very different place.

None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story about that?

Absolutely! I was extremely fortunate to have a great mentor early on in my career. I was a “lead” on a delivery team, so not quite an entry-level position, but no one who was particularly “important” in the company. A member of the executive team saw some potential in me — what he later called “fledgling leadership skills.” He took me under his wing. He taught me all sorts of things about business, let me attend certain meetings and listen to certain calls to see how things worked together. He ran me through the elements on a client contract and would answer all sorts of questions I had.

I vividly remember being in his office and him saying, “You know you could run a department one day.” I did a real-life double-take. I looked around my shoulders behind me and thought, “Are you talking to me?” You might as well have said, “You know you could fly to Mars one day.” That notion was so far away at the time. But the fact that he, an extremely accomplished and credentialed professional, was saying that made me entertain it as a possibility. A seed was planted which would blossom and completely change the trajectory of my career.

Never underestimate the impact your words can have. As my career has progressed, I’ve made a concerted effort to pay that favor forward. I’m so grateful I’ve been able to open doors for other people and speak about something I see in them that they may not see in themselves.

Awesome! Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. I’m an author and I believe that books have the power to change lives. Can you please tell our readers about “The Book That Changed Your Life”? Can you share a story about how it impacted you?

Yes, it’s hard to pick just one. But I’m going with Hannibal and Me by Andreas Kluth. This isn’t about Hannibal Lecter from the movie, Silence of the Lambs, but rather Hannibal the great Carthaginian general who famously led elephants over the Alps to attack Rome. This book is about success and failure and the various definitions of the two; it’s about the different paths people take with their lives and how it shapes them and prepares them for leadership and big moments. Hannibal is the backdrop for this book. It weaves in stories from other influential figures such as Harry Truman, Eleanor Roosevelt, Meriwether Lewis (of Lewis and Clark), Tiger Woods and more.

One of the things the book talks about is the comparison between those who know exactly what they want from a young age and those who don’t. In the case of Hannibal, he had a very clear vision of what he wanted from the time he was born. It came from his father who wanted to exact revenge upon Rome. Everything in young Hannibal’s life was pointed towards that — his talents, plans, and preparations. And it was more than just a goal, it was a “heroic quest.” This focus was all-consuming. These kinds of people are “dreamers.”

By contrast, there are those who wander and search for their call and what we might refer to as “late bloomers.” Harry Truman is presented as an example of this type of person. Harry did all sorts of things before he became President of the United States — notably, he was a failed haberdasher. These people are “wanderers.”

This concept resonated with me because, throughout most of my early career, I’d thought of myself as someone still trying to figure out “what I wanted to be when I grow up.” This caused a lot of anxiety and angst. I thought I needed to have the answer to that, so I could drive all my energy toward it otherwise it was just a waste of time. This book helped alleviate that fear in a fundamental way.

The book does a beautiful job of laying out the different elements and “pros and cons” of each path, saying neither one is better than the other per se. However, it’s important and insightful to know which leader you’re dealing with; it changes how they, together with their leadership style, will evolve and what phases they’ll typically go through.

Hannibal and the dreamers have an advantage at the beginning because they are able to focus all their energy on something. They can be meticulous planners because they know exactly what they want to achieve. They tend to think outside the box because their default state has been outside of it. For them, success comes quickly and is explosive. However, after a young hero completes their quest, they might realize at an awkwardly early age that their best moments might already lie behind them. They will also have a very narrow set of experiences and expertise to try and deploy in their future.

Harry and the wanderers drift here and there early on, doing this and that, which may not be connected to any grand plan. They are often frustrated with different stops and starts along their way, and struggle greatly with self-doubt. But through their wandering and discoveries in different areas, they are accumulating broad set of experiences. This wide-ranging experience is their greatest asset. They may not have one spectacular burst of success early on; but through gradually scoring smaller, incremental success over time, they will build a legacy of success. This trajectory can continue indefinitely.

Dreamers trust themselves. Wanderers know themselves.

I’d never seen leadership and people’s stories laid out like that before. I love it. I feel like it’s true for me and others I know.

There’s a reference to Rudyard Kipling’s famous poem “If” early in the book and the one line that goes, “If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster and treat those two imposters just the same…” Later in the book, the author suggests, “Don’t agonize about success and failure. Just do what you must do as well as you possibly can. In the process you may eventually transcend triumph and disaster. That is how you meet those two imposters.”

What was the moment or series of events that made you decide that you wanted to take a specific course of action based on the inspiration from the book? Can you share a story about that?

It was when Hannibal had to reexamine his strategy in war and life. Was Hannibal winning the right battles, or were his triumphs imposters? Should he have done something other than take his army over the Alps to invade Italy? Now that he was there, what should he do next?

Hannibal’s Greek tutor, Sosylus, says, “Hannibal, I have a much bigger question for you: What do you want from this war?…I know you intend to win…but then what? What sort of peace do you want?”

Hannibal replies “I want revenge, Sosylus, and I want justice for what they did to my father and Carthage in the last war.”

“Yes, but what does justice look like? Will you declare victory if Rome gives Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica back to Carthage? If Rome cedes Iberia to Carthage forever? Would you demand, as the Romans demanded of Carthage last time, that they destroy their fleet? I’m asking — I am demanding — that you define success, strategos.”

Strategos was the Greek word for general. A general must have the right strategy and the right tactics.

Winning is not the same as success. I love to “win.” I grew up playing sports and winning is a clear-cut, all-or-nothing thing. But in a company, in politics, and in life you need to define success — if I “win,” okay great, what am I winning? If I climb this ladder, what’s at the top? Do I have my ladder up against the right wall?

This made me question my motives and where I was pointing my life, career, and energy towards. It’s a healthy exercise. I now do it on a regular basis and make little course corrections or refinements as needed. What am I going after and why? What do I intend to do with it when I get it? Define the appropriate strategy and tactics to be employed and make sure the two are aligned. It helps me feel good about what I’m doing — more settled and more grounded.

Can you articulate why you think books in particular have the power to create movements, revolutions, and true change?

They are vehicles of ideas. It makes me think of that line from the movie Inception. Leonardo DiCaprio’s character describes the most powerful thing in the world as an idea. “An idea” he says “is like a virus, resilient, highly contagious. The smallest seed of an idea can grow. It can grow to define or destroy you.”

Books can tap into a shared sentiment; universal emotions people can relate to. I remember reading the book Revolutionary Road and there’s this segment of the book where the main couple feels free and excited about their future, without giving a second thought about what other people think. They are empowered, and the author is able to convey that they’re on the cusp of making big changes and going after their dreams. The reader is swept up in the moment, feeling the same way the characters are — lighter, vibrant, beautiful, and full of life. But you know it’s all fleeting and soon it all comes crashing down. Their own “reasonable” thoughts and senses came back to them and reality set in. I remember being swept up in that part of the book and then thinking, “yes, yes, yes…that’s how it happens. That’s how you talk yourself out of doing what you want.” Even though it’s sad, tragic in a way, that up and down, mix of bitter and sweet, is so relatable.

A book has many aspects, of course. For example, you have the writing style, the narrative tense, the topic, the genre, the design, the cover, the size, etc. In your opinion, what are the main, essential ingredients needed to create a book that can change lives?

Well, topics and writing styles are extremely subjective; it all depends on what you’re writing and trying to do. Are you nailing 95 theses to the church door to start a reformation or are you writing a breaking news story and trying to get the facts out quickly?

But, generally, in today’s world, a book needs to be accessible. Literally and figuratively. It needs to be in a format that’s accessible. People are busy, therefore, Audible, Kindle and the like, are good options. For physical books, I prefer a paperback I can easily hold in my hands and pack in a bag. Is the content accessible? Are the ideas and information being conveyed in a way that can be understood? This doesn’t mean simple or “dumbed down” content, but it needs to make that connection and reach out to grab someone’s attention. We already mentioned being able to access an emotional connection.

As they said, “When Cicero turned to the crowds in ancient Rome, people said, “Great speech.” When Demosthenes spoke to the crowds in ancient Greece and people turned to each other, they said, “Let’s march.”

A book can change lives when it makes the reader go, “let’s march”, and they march their lives in a new direction or share the ideas with the people around them.

What are your “5 Things I Wish Someone Told Me Before I Started My Career” and why? (Please share a story or example for each.)

1. Don’t spend so much time worrying. It’s a waste of time and you’ll regret it. Hold onto this principle tightly: Things will find a way even if you don’t see a way.
2. Say ‘yes’ to good experiences, especially early in your career. Different industries, companies, roles, gap years, and taking part in things that expose you to different types of people are valuable.
3. Surround yourself with the right people and environment. Find people with the same values and different skill sets. Find people who do what you want to do, are living the type of life you want to live and watch them closely. Ask them questions. Spend time with people who value you and will encourage and push you in right ways. People who will build you up, not constantly pull you down. Make sure you’re feeding yourself the right things as far as what you watch and what you listen to. It all adds up, affecting you in ways you’re not immediately aware of. Be mindful and vigilant.
4. Pay it forward. Help someone else going through the same things you’ve been through whenever you can. Use that experience of yours for good. Remember how it feels to do something for the first time; remember the fear that comes with it. Be more empathetic. Actively look for ways to bring other people up. Open doors for them. When you do that, every time that other person succeeds, you succeed. Whenever they get better, you get better.
5. Investing in yourself is never a bad decision. Investing in others isn’t either. Take the time. Spend the money. Put in the work. I’m not saying it’ll be easy; I’m saying it will be worth it. Invest in yourself.

The world, of course, needs progress in many areas. What movement do you hope someone (or you!) starts next? Can you explain why that is so important?

Oh jeez, this is a big question.

A less me-centric world. I’m all for personal empowerment, advocating for yourself, being proud of your accomplishments, standing up for yourself and refusing to be disrespected or taken advantage of. There’s a lot of “me” and “I” in our dialogue; what’s in it for me and how will that make me look? How do I get what I want? If I do this for you what will you do for me? Instead, we need to wake up and ask ourselves, “How can I serve and contribute and give?” The secret is it will all come back to you tenfold. And by the way, this is not weak or soft and it will not cost you anything. You can be a badass, a baller, a rise-and-grind person, blinged out from head to toe and still be good to others. We’re all going through this life together and we’ve all got enough challenges and hardships. Let’s help each other out.

How can our readers further follow your work online?

They can visit my website www.nextlevel.coach — there are a number of free resources and information available there. They can also follow me at Next Level Coaching on LinkedIn (search ‘Next Level Emily’) and @NextLevelEmily on Twitter for tons of practical business and leadership tips.

Thank you so much for taking the time to share with us and our readers. We know that it will make a tremendous difference and impact thousands of lives. We are excited to connect further and we wish you so much joy in your next success.

About the interviewer: Sara Connell is a bestselling author and the founder of Thought Leader Academy where she helps coaches, writers and entrepreneurs become best selling authors, TEDx and paid speakers. She has been featured on The Oprah Winfrey Show, Good Morning America, The View, FOX Chicago, NPR, Katie Couric and TEDx. Her writing has appeared in: The New York Times, Forbes, and many publications. Access her free masterclass: How to Write A Bestselling Book That Changes Lives (in less than 3 months) HERE