Female Disruptors: Elizabeth Muller of Deep Isolation On The Three Things You Need To Shake Up Your Industry

An Interview With Dina Aletras

“Listen to advice, but don’t necessarily follow it.” Gathering diverse perspectives is valuable, but ultimately, you must trust your expertise and instincts. In the nuclear industry, understanding the nuances and complexities allows you to make informed decisions that others might not foresee.

As a part of our series about women who are shaking things up in their industry, we had the pleasure of interviewing Elizabeth Muller.

Elizabeth Muller is the co-founder and CEO of Deep Fission, the Executive Chair and former CEO of Deep Isolation, and a serial entrepreneur in the nuclear and environmental sectors. She led the successful demonstration of borehole technology at Deep Isolation, forged key partnerships across governments and industry, and now has turned her efforts to reducing the cost of nuclear power by putting it a mile underground. Named a Clean Energy Rising Star by Business Insider in 2020, Liz is also a patent co-author, author, dance instructor, and mother of two based in the Bay Area, with degrees in Mathematics from UC San Diego and an MBA from ESCP Business School in Paris.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit about your “backstory”? What led you to this particular career path?

I’ve been interested in nuclear energy since I was a child. I remember back in the late 1980s when Berkeley became a “nuclear-free zone.” Everyone was celebrating — teachers, classmates — it felt like a big victory. I went home and shared the news with my dad, who was a physics professor. Instead of joining in my excitement, he explained to me that “nuclear-free” wasn’t as simple as it sounded. He explained that everything around us, including us, is inherently radioactive. That moment taught me that nuclear energy is a complex topic and sparked my interest.

In my 20s, I lived in France, where nuclear energy was embraced as a clean, reliable energy source. When I returned to the U.S., I started asking myself why nuclear wasn’t utilized more here, especially in light of climate change. The unsolved nuclear waste problem seemed to be the biggest roadblock. My journey has been about addressing that challenge, which led to the founding of Deep Isolation, focused on nuclear waste disposal, and now Deep Fission, which aims to address the cost of nuclear power generation.

Can you tell our readers what it is about the work you’re doing that’s disruptive?

What we’re doing has never been done before. Nobody in the world has ever disposed of spent nuclear fuel or high-level nuclear waste in a way that meets modern safety and environmental standards. It’s groundbreaking work.

Similarly, with Deep Fission, we’re developing nuclear reactors that can be cost-effective right from the first deployment. That’s a game-changer for the nuclear industry, which often requires massive financial losses before becoming profitable.

Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?

When we first conceptualized Deep Isolation, my co-founder and I approached an expert in nuclear waste disposal to discuss the concept. He loved our concept, but was completely dismissive about pursuing it. He warned us that nothing ever happens to progress nuclear waste disposal, and advised us to run in the opposite direction if we wanted to achieve something meaningful in our lifetimes. Instead of being deterred, this feedback motivated us to double down on our efforts, and this expert became one of our closest advisors. The lesson here is that skepticism can sometimes fuel determination, pushing you to prove the naysayers wrong.

We all need a little help along the journey. Who have been some of your mentors? Can you share a story about how they made an impact?

Mentorship has been crucial for me. Per Peterson was one of the first people who believed in Deep Isolation and its ability to actually solve the nuclear waste disposal problem. When we approached him, he was initially skeptical, but after a short conversation, he became one of our strongest supporters and has been a source of encouragement throughout our journey.

Another significant mentor was Clay Collier. We used to go for walks where I could share the challenges I was facing. He helped me brainstorm solutions, or sometimes just reassured me that I was on the right track.

Leslie Goldman Tepper has also been a pillar of support. She started out as an early stage investor and Advisory Board member, but eventually joined the Deep Isolation Board of Directors.

Lastly, the YPO (Young Presidents’ Organization) network has been invaluable. It’s a peer group of CEOs where I’ve found support and fresh perspectives on the challenges of running a business. It has been instrumental in navigating the complexities of our work.

In today’s parlance, being disruptive is usually a positive adjective. But is disrupting always good? When do we say the converse, that a system or structure has ‘withstood the test of time’? Can you articulate to our readers when disrupting an industry is positive, and when disrupting an industry is ‘not so positive’? Can you share some examples of what you mean?

Disruption isn’t inherently good or bad. It depends on both the process and the outcome. A positive disruption involves acting with integrity and aiming for a beneficial impact on the world. For instance, our approach to nuclear waste disposal is disruptive because it offers a safer and more cost-effective solution, addressing critical issues like climate change and energy sustainability.

However, disruption can have negative aspects if the process involves unethical practices or harms stakeholders. For example, if disruptive technology leads to significant job losses without providing alternative opportunities, it can be viewed negatively. Disrupting an industry without ensuring safety and reliability can have detrimental effects, as well.

Can you share 3 of the best words of advice you’ve gotten along your journey? Please give a story or example for each.

1. “Always make time for the truly important.” This advice came from my parents and has become a core value at Deep Isolation. It’s easy to get caught up in urgent tasks, but stepping back to focus on what really matters — whether it’s family, strategy, or long-term goals — has been invaluable.

2. “Know when to give up.” The advice that is often given is to “never give up.” While perseverance is important, it’s equally crucial to recognize when something isn’t working. If a project requires immense effort but won’t create meaningful change, it’s better to refocus that energy elsewhere.

3. “Listen to advice, but don’t necessarily follow it.” Gathering diverse perspectives is valuable, but ultimately, you must trust your expertise and instincts. In the nuclear industry, understanding the nuances and complexities allows you to make informed decisions that others might not foresee.

We are sure you aren’t done. How are you going to shake things up next?

My current focus is the low-cost generation of nuclear power. Nuclear power is still just too expensive! With Deep Fission, which I co-founded last year, we aim to revolutionize nuclear power by developing cost-effective, safe, and efficient advanced nuclear reactors a mile underground. It’s counterintuitive that building a reactor a mile underground reduces cost, but the biggest cost of nuclear power is the concrete and steel — and you don’t need this if you’re a mile underground. By making nuclear energy economically viable from day one, we will set the example that nuclear is the right path for clean, reliable, and low-cost energy.

In your opinion, what are the biggest challenges faced by ‘women disruptors’ that aren’t typically faced by their male counterparts?

One of the most significant challenges is the lack of role models. Finding my personal leadership voice was a challenge, as many people talk about the leadership of Steve Jobs or Elon Musk — but these are not examples that made sense to me. This relative dearth of leadership models that resonate with me personally made it harder to find my voice, and also impacted confidence when things get difficult and investors (usually male) pushed me in the direction of working my team harder (not smarter). Having female CEOs and leaders helps inspire and empower other women to pursue similar paths, fostering a more inclusive and diverse industry and more inclusive leadership styles.

Do you have a book/podcast/talk that’s had a deep impact on your thinking? Can you share a story with us?

I recently read, “How Big Things Get Done,” which profoundly impacted my perspective. Although it might as well be titled, “How Big Things Fail,” because the book delves into why large projects often don’t succeed. I was particularly struck when it singled out nuclear waste disposal as the “worst of the worst” in terms of project management challenges. It highlights that prolonged timelines increase the risk of unforeseen changes that can derail projects. For example, nuclear waste disposal projects can span over 50 years, making them highly susceptible to policy shifts, technological changes, and economic fluctuations. The key takeaway is the importance of agility and speed in project implementation to mitigate these risks.

You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. :-)

I would inspire a movement focused on combating climate change through the adoption of nuclear energy. Nuclear power has the potential to provide clean, reliable energy that can significantly reduce carbon emissions. By addressing both the nuclear waste problem and the cost barriers, we can make nuclear energy a cornerstone in the fight against global warming. Accelerating the deployment of advanced nuclear technologies is essential to achieving a sustainable and environmentally friendly energy future.

Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?

One of my favorite life lessons is to “enjoy the moment.” Building a company and pursuing ambitious goals can be incredibly stressful and challenging. It’s essential to step back and find joy and hope in the journey, not just the destination. Recognizing that the choices you make, even during tough times, are driven by your beliefs and passions helps maintain motivation and resilience. This perspective has been invaluable in keeping me grounded and positive throughout the highs and lows of building Deep Isolation and Deep Fission.

Every Saturday morning, I teach a dance class called Rhythm in Motion. It’s a follow-along class for all levels of dance ability, with real dance content from many styles. Dancing brings immense joy that I get to share with my students. It also allows me to disconnect from the professional world. This practice not only rejuvenates me but also fosters a sense of community and creativity that I cherish deeply.

How can our readers follow you online?

Follow me on LinkedIn and on our websites, www.deepisolation.com and www.deepfission.com.

This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for joining us!

About the Interviewer: Dina Aletras boasts over 20 years of expertise in the corporate media industry. She possesses an in-depth understanding of growth, strategy, and leadership, having held significant roles at some of the UK’s largest media organizations. At Reach PLC, the UK’s largest tabloid publisher, she served in various director capacities. Additionally, she held leadership roles at The Independent Magazine Group and DMGT. Her extensive knowledge spans editorial, digital, revenue, sales, and advertising.

Upon relocating to Switzerland, Dina took on the responsibility of managing and promoting the international section of Corriere del Ticino — CdT.ch pioneering the English page “onthespot.” She also was the Co-Editor of Southern Switzerland’s first official Italian and English bilingual magazine.