Joel Freund Of Fluex Media On How To Hire The Right Person

An Interview With Ken Babcock

Don’t let ego or fear of mistakes get in the way of decision-making. We are obsessed with making the right hire, using so many tools and techniques to make a decision. This holds companies back from hiring and stalls development. It’s okay to try something and then admit that you’ve made a mistake. That way you can move on and try again, until you find the perfect fit. I’m not saying you should hire indiscriminately or on a whim. Do whatever due diligence you can, and then make decisions quickly. Sure, there’s the possibility that you’re making the wrong call — however, not making one at all is often a bigger disadvantage to the business. If you make a bad decision and move on from it quickly, you can still make a lot of progress, but if you hold yourself back, waiting for that divine sign, it stops progress in its tracks.

When a company is looking to grow, the choice of who to hire can sometimes be an almost existential question. The right hire can dramatically grow a company, while the wrong hire can be very harmful to morale and growth. How can you know you are hiring the right person? What are the red flags that should warn you away from hiring someone? In this interview series, we are talking to business leaders who can share insights and stories from their experience about “How To Hire The Right Person”. As a part of this series, I had the distinct pleasure of interviewing Joel Freund.

After quickly climbing the corporate ladder into management positions and then a successful stint as the CEO at a telecom company, Joel founded Fluex Media. He uses his knack for leadership combined with his business and marketing know-how to play an active role in running the company. He has hired hundreds of employees over the course of his career, and his greatest joy is empowering both his staff and clients to become great leaders in their own right. When he’s not working, you’ll find him playing music, building communities, and donating kidneys.

Thank you for joining us in this interview series. Our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your ‘backstory’?

Unlike most entrepreneurs, I never dreamed of being an entrepreneur. Throughout my early years in the workforce, I found myself being placed into leadership positions at multibillion dollar companies and smaller companies. I got to see the inside of many wonderful organizations — the good, the bad, and the ugly. One thing that was really hard to see was people staying in jobs for many, many years, even though they hated the environment and were miserable. They dreaded Monday mornings — even Sunday evenings — and waited all week for Friday. That description fit the majority of the people I met in the workplace. It was sad.

I was put into leadership positions at such a young age — the people in my department were way older than I was and had been at the company much longer. I’m the young guy, six months on the job, and suddenly I’m their supervisor. I was not prepared for leadership roles and had to read a lot about leadership: how to recruit, how to train, how to retain. At the electronics retailer where I was a department supervisor, there was a tremendous amount of employee turnover. The company was performing well despite this as their systemization was unbelievably efficient, so their growth and success weren’t people-dependent. They were able to explode the business with no regard to the human element. But at the same time, you had thousands of people coming to work every day, miserable.

I started reading about company culture and realizing that there’s a better way to do it. I was able to retain employees in my department at a much higher rate compared to the company as a whole. As I went through different workplaces, it was painful always being in unhappy environments. I made a commitment that if or when I would build something one day, it was going to be a place where people loved coming to work — a place where Fridays are not such an exciting day and Mondays aren’t so miserable. I’m skipping a few years here, but eventually I found EOS, founded Fluex Media, and it’s been a beautiful journey since.

You’ve had a remarkable career journey. Can you highlight a key decision in your career that helped you get to where you are today?

At a certain point in life, you have to decide what’s important to you. For most people, when you ask them why they do what they do, they’ll say it’s to make a living. Of course, everyone needs to make money, but that can’t be all it is. If it is, it can be a long, miserable life, because money is just an outcome of the purpose, rather than the purpose. You have to find some sort of joy in what you do, beyond the money. I was in a position where I earned a nice salary — but I wasn’t happy. The environment wasn’t one where people liked being. Yes, we were friends — but enjoying each other’s company doesn’t automatically make it a healthy team. That takes strong core values being shared by all; and being totally open and honest so that people have no problem admitting mistakes or shortcomings — not only to each other, but also to those above you in the company hierarchy. If you don’t have that shared purpose and vulnerability, the work situation becomes very distressing.

This realization — and the subsequent decision to leave a high-paying job with absolutely nothing else lined up — was a turning point for me. I needed fulfilment, and a truly healthy company culture. Very few companies actually offer that. Everyone is posting pictures on social media about their events and parties and trips, and those are great things to do — but if you don’t have open and honest communication and don’t foster vulnerability, you don’t have a healthy culture. No number of parties, expeditions, and programs is going to solve it.

This need led me to create the work environment I wanted to be in. Most of the credit goes to Patrick Lencioni. Discovering his books had the single biggest impact on my journey. I have read all of them many times over. Immediately, I knew that the situation he describes was exactly what I was searching for over the years. Satisfaction at work isn’t about money — it’s about a healthy team culture. The money follows on its own.

What’s the most impactful initiative you’ve led that you’re particularly proud of?

A few years back I donated a kidney to a stranger via an unbelievable organization called Renewal. I have stayed involved with Renewal ever since, participating in their information events and fundraising initiatives.

Interestingly, being a giving person is one of the core values we look for when we hire at Fluex Media. When you give, it’s easy to calculate what you might get in return and think that perhaps one day the other person will return the favor. Or you’re hoping for a business relationship. Or you want some honor. It’s all about the give and take. In contrast, we want to work with people who give because they’re giving people, period. No calculations. Giving is about me — I have a need to give; giving makes me happy. When you think this way, it’s not hard to understand how you can undergo surgery and disrupt your life for a few weeks for somebody you’ve never met. Similarly (just without the surgical aspect!), Fluex Media is a bunch of talented people who like to give, and prioritize the greater good: the success of our clients and our company. Sadly, so often over the years, I’ve heard remarks along the lines of, “What will you gain from your dedication to the company? You’re so naïve. You think they’ll appreciate you?” The reason I became supervisor six months into the job at my first workplace — over other, older candidates who had worked many more years at the company — was because of my giving attitude. I gave it my all — not because I did someone a favor, and not because I was looking for a promotion, but because this is who I am. Living and working in environments where you’re being degraded for being committed is very painful.

That’s why I donated my kidney. That’s why we attract giving people at Fluex Media. It’s how we fuel ourselves and others.

How about a mistake you’ve made and the lesson you took away?

I’ve made so many mistakes — choosing just one is not going to be easy, but here’s a big one: accepting the leadership promotion six months into my first job was definitely not a smart move. It would have been wiser to allow myself more time and space to grow into it. The lesson is to slow down and really think about your strengths and weaknesses. Of course, we all have ambition, but it needs to come with a strong self-awareness. There’s pushing yourself out of your comfort zone (highly recommended) and jumping off a three-story building (um, not so recommended). After self-awareness comes being open and honest about your strengths and weaknesses. Hiding the truth just to get to where you want doesn’t work. I used to be very closed. I was very far from vulnerability. After chasing my first interview for months, I confirmed I wrote a fluent English (I could just about sign my name). I said I was proficient in Excel (I didn’t know what a right-click was). There is nothing wrong with lacking these skills — but there is something very wrong with not being able to be upfront about it. Know yourself, be open, and push yourself responsibly.

How has mentorship played a role in your career, whether receiving mentorship or offering it to others?

Many times during my career, I felt stuck or didn’t have the courage to take the next steps. Particularly at one of my previous roles, it was a very toxic environment; it was stressful and draining. But I was earning nicely and afraid to leave. I started looking for a mentor and spoke to others in C-level positions at other companies. I was fortunate to find somebody who was a great source of support and guidance. He encouraged me to quit and gave me the courage to start my own business, and continues to mentor me today. Mentorship is so important — now that I’m in a better place, I try to do the same for others. A little bit of guidance can make a big difference. Sometimes it’s not even a matter of guidance — business owners know exactly what they need to do but need support to make the move.

Developing your leadership style takes time and practice. Who do you model your leadership style after? What are some key character traits you try to emulate?

Without a doubt, that would be Patrick Lencioni. I recognize myself in so many of his fables. His ideas about true leadership are so aligned with mine. The leadership I experienced was so far from what he describes, that it led me to think my dreams could never be implemented. I had never seen anything remotely like it in real-life workplaces. There are so many traits to emulate: honesty, integrity, vulnerability-based trust, leading the team versus micro-managing, encouraging healthy conflict rather than building a team of yes-men, to name a few. But the biggest one for me is allowing your team to grow. More than that: being obligated to help them grow. If your employees are not growing, you are failing them. No matter how well they’re paid, they will get worn down. Anybody in a leadership position — in business or in their personal life — has an obligation to enable the people they lead to elevate themselves. The classic philosophy says to focus on the company’s gain, to make sure people don’t get too smart too soon, to make sure they are stuck with you, to get the most out of them. That’s not leadership — it borders on taking advantage of people. But even without bad intentions, leaders have to consistently be aware of their obligation to make sure their people are always growing.

Thank you for sharing that with us. Let’s change paths a little bit. In my work, I focus on helping companies to simplify the process of creating documentation of their workflow, so I am particularly passionate about this question. Many times, a key aspect of scaling your business is scaling your team’s knowledge and internal procedures. What tools or techniques have helped your teams be successful at scaling internally?

Everything in business is about systemization. This concept comes from Michael Gerber, in The E-Myth, which is a highly recommended read for anyone thinking of starting a business. If you’re in business already and haven’t read it, do that as soon as you can.

Business is supposed to be a machine, not just a bunch of people trying to make things happen. When you’re setting up a business, think about doing everything in a way that makes it self-sustainable to a certain point. Having a proper CRM, a task management system to automate daily activities, documented processes — it doesn’t matter which of the countless tools and software options you use for these; the point is to set up easy-to-follow step by step processes.

You cannot build a business based on one person’s unique abilities or incredible skills. If you do that, you can’t scale. Documentation is one of the very important pieces. Every single aspect of your business processes should be documented — but here’s the trick: keep it simple. Nobody is going to read or follow hundreds of pages. Effective documentation lists the main points, the basic processes — don’t overcomplicate it.

The pandemic forced many companies to adapt. Implementing remote onboarding and professional development — in addition to maintaining culture — challenged organizations. Can you share with us the challenges you have faced, with remote onboarding and hiring? How have your internal processes evolved as a result?

In today’s day and age, with the technology that we have, it really shouldn’t matter. I know people think it does, and people are afraid of change, especially in companies which operate totally in-house. They’re afraid of giving their employees a little more independence. The reality is, if you have a healthy culture and employees with accountability and responsibility, you’re not dependent on micromanaging your team. As a society, we need to stop focusing on micromanagement and dictating to people, and focus instead on fostering a healthy culture. If you get that right, remote working really shouldn’t matter.

Already before the pandemic, we were working with people across several countries. We were looking for the best people. When you insist on in-house teams, you can’t possibly have the best people. You’re narrowing your search down to people within 10 miles of your office. In my previous workplace, we were looking for network engineers, frontend developers, and UX designers. These roles require a lot of skill. We were very stuck on needing them to be in-house so we could “manage” them, which was a code word for watching their every move. Searching through only the in-house options for candidates significantly reduced our chances of finding the best people.

This conversation has nothing to do with the pandemic. The pandemic was just a situation that forced companies to really think about this and make changes. They had to figure out how to help their teams work remotely, and surprisingly, the world — and their businesses — didn’t collapse as a result. It’s interesting how many companies are trying to bring their people back in. You’ve been operating remotely for two years. Was it that bad? So many companies choose to ignore the cultural issues and real dysfunction. They would rather have everyone come into work to be micromanaged and miserable, than to let them work remotely and have a team meeting once a week. It’s unfathomable to me.

With the Great Resignation/Reconsideration in full swing, many job seekers are reevaluating their priorities in selecting a role and an employer. How do you think this will influence companies’ approaches to hiring, talent management, and continuous learning?

The whole employer/employee dynamic has changed completely, whether companies realize it or not. It’s mind-boggling that some companies just don’t get it. In the past, we’ve seen huge companies wiped off the map because they refused to adapt to new realities. And it happens again and again in different ways. Business today changes at 100mph — change that used to take 100 years happens in two years. Companies are going to go through a lot of hardship with the changing employer/employee dynamic. Information is available in a way that has never been before. Employees know what’s going on. They have their eyes wide open.

During the dotcom era, some companies were so confident with their customer base, they thought it wouldn’t affect them. We all know what happened. Customers just went somewhere else because it was more convenient for them. The same thing is going to happen with employees. They’ll see an option with more flexibility and opportunity, and will choose that path.

At Fluex Media, employees are treated like our customers. You actually need to treat them better, because employees are the business — but as a minimum, give them the support and care you give your customers. That’s one way businesses will need to change their approach to hiring, talent management, and continuous learning.

Authenticity is also becoming more sought out. Probably more than any time in history, we crave authenticity, in business, in politics, anywhere you look. The more authentic, transparent, open and honest, and vulnerable people are, the more successful they’ll be. People crave that. They don’t care so much about what you’re saying or if they agree with you — they just want the real you, the whole deal. When employees are treated differently to customers, it tells them that the reason you give good service to your customers is just to get their money. It’s not real; it’s not because you genuinely care about other people. People get very turned off by that. If your company’s culture and one of its core values is giving, it means caring about people across the board — you can’t be selectively doing it only in places where it benefits you. When you truly care about your employees, naturally they will truly care about your company. Our employees care about our customers a lot more than I do. They take it a lot further and are invested way more than I expected. It’s a cultural thing. To them, it’s not about showing up at their job and being told what to do — it’s innately who they are. They are caring, giving, and committed people.

Super, thank you for sharing all of that. Next, let’s turn to the main focus of our discussion about hiring the right person. As you know, hiring can be very time consuming and difficult. Can you share 5 techniques that you use to identify the talent that would be best suited for the job you want to fill? Please share an example for each idea.

1. Define your core values. Successful hiring starts way before the candidate steps into the interview room, or even submits their resume. Many companies don’t have clearly defined core values, or even if they do, they are either vague, full of jargon, and meaningless (“we care,” “we think big”); on some old document nobody knows where to find; or not easily recalled by anybody at the company. At Fluex Media we worked through several exercises with our EOS implementor to discover and define five core values by which we hire, fire, review, reward, and recognize. When you get your core values clearly defined, no two companies will have the same, and you attract the right people to your organization.
2. Screen for core values. It’s easy to vet candidates for technical skills. You’re hiring a copywriter, graphic artist, or computer programmer? You check out their previous work, or if they don’t have any yet, give them a sample task. That’s the easy part. The hard part is identifying if they share your core values. Do they have integrity? Are they open and honest? You’ve done the first step: defining your core values. Now you need to keep them at the forefront of your mind and evaluate whether the candidate is a fit. These are not questions you ask directly, because everyone is going to give you the answer you’re looking for. Instead, weave it into the conversation. You want to know if somebody is open and honest? Will they be vulnerable and admit it when they made a mistake? Ask questions about their failures or mistakes — again, not in a direct or confrontational way. Keep it conversational and in a storytelling format. What was it like at your previous job? How was it working with your colleagues? Your manager? What went really well? What were the hardships there? Is there anything you wish you would have known, or done differently? People who are open and honest will not shy away from saying things like, “I have an anger management issue. I work really hard on it, but this is my weakness.” Or, “I really struggle with being on time.” People who are not open and honest will answer questions on their shortcomings with some nonsense about having poor grammar. It shows either a lack of self-awareness, or worse — they’re not being open with you. Rinse and repeat for all your core values :) EOS tools, such as The People Analyzer and running a GWC check (Get it, Want it, Capacity to do it) are a huge help with making sure you haven’t missed anything, and are putting RPRS (the right person in the right seat).
3. Don’t ignore red flags. I’ve always had a lot of faith in people and looked for the best in them. I would dismiss red flags and justify them in my head (“He’s not maintaining eye contact? He’s just nervous”), believing I was being overly cautious (“She didn’t apologize for arriving late? It was only ten minutes, it doesn’t mean she won’t own up to her mistakes”) or that I was the problem (“He’s not being open about his challenges? I haven’t done enough to make him feel comfortable sharing”). I’ve learnt the hard way not to ignore my gut. If it doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t. I have definitely been wrong sometimes and I’ve likely missed out on hiring some great people, but in general, don’t overlook your concerns, even when you can’t really put your finger on what exactly is bothering you.
4. Be open and honest. It’s okay not to be sure if the person is the right fit for your company, or if the position is right for them. It’s hard for the candidate to grasp the job description on paper, and it’s hard for the employer to envision this candidate doing it and integrating with the team. Be transparent about your uncertainty. Tell them, “I’m not sure about this. Are you willing to try this for a month and you’ll tell me afterwards how you feel about it, and I’ll do the same? Are you okay with that?” This is how we hired our CMO, LinkedIn strategist, and lead graphic designer, to name a few. It’s not a trick or technique — it has to be for real. You are both going into this with an open mind. It fosters open communication and prevents issues on both ends down the line.
5. Don’t let ego or fear of mistakes get in the way of decision-making. We are obsessed with making the right hire, using so many tools and techniques to make a decision. This holds companies back from hiring and stalls development. It’s okay to try something and then admit that you’ve made a mistake. That way you can move on and try again, until you find the perfect fit. I’m not saying you should hire indiscriminately or on a whim. Do whatever due diligence you can, and then make decisions quickly. Sure, there’s the possibility that you’re making the wrong call — however, not making one at all is often a bigger disadvantage to the business. If you make a bad decision and move on from it quickly, you can still make a lot of progress, but if you hold yourself back, waiting for that divine sign, it stops progress in its tracks.

In contrast, what are a few red flags that should warn you away from hiring someone?

The biggest one for me is when someone is not being authentic, or is embellishing the truth. The way to pick up on this is taking mental notes while the candidate talks about themselves and their work, and revisiting certain points later in the conversation to see if it matches up. So many times, there are inconsistencies at this point. This signals that the candidate is not open and honest at their core, which is extremely unhealthy for a company.

Another turnoff is taking credit for other people’s work. People will sometimes tell you about their amazing accomplishments, but after digging a little deeper, it becomes apparent that another person played the biggest part in this, whether it was a colleague, department head, or direct report. Healthy people will always give credit where it is due, even if it’s to their disadvantage. The greatest business people acknowledge having great people and publicly recognize their contributions to the company. The opposite is toxic. I’ve seen too many great people leaving companies just because there was one powerful employee taking credit for everything.

In general, spotting red flags always comes back to your core values. One of our core values at Fluex Media is Be Committed. Commitment is so valuable to a company, but when you have some employees who are and some who aren’t, it hurts the committed ones. Again, you vet candidates for a core values fit by digging deeper (always in a conversational way) when candidates relate work stories. I interviewed somebody who claimed to have achieved a lot at his previous workplace. When I asked him to tell me more about that business’ sales cycle, he told me that one season was their main source of sales. Naturally, at that time of the year, the workload was stressful and more labor was needed. I asked how the company managed it, and he told me about their excellent program: employees could work overtime, with generous pay and bonuses, gourmet meals, and fun activities provided by the company in return. Was this mandatory? No, he said. If you chose to stay, you got the perks. How often did he stay? Never. He was always out of the door at 5pm. Why? “I earn a nice salary. I don’t need the overtime pay and bonuses. It’s not my company and not my problem.” Red flag! I do not expect people to work late and actively discourage burnout. But he didn’t say, “I would have loved to stay and help but I had family obligations.” If he wasn’t prepared to stretch himself for three weeks for the company’s benefit, he was clearly not a team player and not committed.

What software or tools do you recommend to help onboard new hires?

The best tool you can have is a basic, well-defined, documented process for everything you do. When we onboard additional writers or platform admins, we give them a simple step-by-step document — without weighing it down with complicated details. When I talk to business owners, they say, “My industry is different. It’s so complicated. The process is in my head; I can’t put it on a few sheets of paper.” It’s not true. Even in the marketing industry, where there is no doubt a lot of talent and creativity involved, the really great companies have a clear process for what they do. I was recently invited to present at a small event for business owners. One of the questions was from a business owner who had been trying to fill a certain position for several years (!). He was still doing it on his own because he had never found the right person to delegate it to. After some back and forth, it became clear that he had a process issue, not a hiring issue. Without a simple, defined process, it’s impossible to hire anyone to do it for you. He wasn’t convinced. It was the biggest compliment to me that somebody at the table — who is in the marketing industry herself — got up and said, “Listen, there is a process. I’m also not the best at process, but I’ll tell you this: one of my clients came to me and said they use Fluex Media for their LinkedIn marketing. He showed me the documents they’ve created for him. And he said, this is what I need for all other areas of my marketing — can you do that for me?” That client was blown away by how we took a complex, talent-driven combination of skills and distilled it into a structured process.

It doesn’t matter which software you choose. It starts with a piece of paper. This is how we do things — just the basic steps, the headlines. And there you have your best onboarding tool.

Because of your role, you are a person of significant influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most people, what would that be? You never know what your ideas can trigger.

The one movement I would love to inspire or be involved in is promoting a truly healthy culture at the workplace. In every company I’ve been in — successful and unsuccessful alike — unhealthy culture was the biggest source of stress, resentment, and burnout. People don’t get burned out from hard work. They are not afraid of hard work. They get burned out from dysfunction, at every level in the company. This is something I am very passionate about. When I talk at events, I don’t use the opportunity to lecture about the value of building a strong LinkedIn presence, which is my core business — I choose to talk about company culture instead.

We are created as selfish beings. In every situation, we think about the potential benefit to ourselves. Yet we are also inherently and innately good. Even people with less giving natures, innately want to do good. The problem is that these are two conflicting inner voices all the time, and being in unhealthy environments at home, school, and then work shuts down the ‘do good’ voice, because we are afraid we’ll be exploited or shortchanged for it. To me, it’s about going back to the core: what makes me happy? Simple: being able to give. That means I need to stop thinking, “What’s in it for me? What will I gain from this? Everyone will take advantage of you” — because if I hold myself back from doing, helping, making a difference, I’m going to be one miserable human being for the rest of my life. I’m doing good for selfish reasons: to make myself happy. That makes me healthy and drains my stress and anxiety. What’s in it for me? A lot — happiness, fulfilment, and being a better person.

This was truly meaningful! Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your expertise!

About the interviewer. Ken Babcock is the CEO and Co-Founder of Tango. Prior to his mission of celebrating how work is executed, Ken spent over 4 years at Uber riding the rollercoaster of a generational company. After gaining hands-on experience with entrepreneurship at Atomic VC, Ken went on to HBS. It was at HBS that Ken met his Co-Founders, Dan Giovacchini and Brian Shultz and they founded Tango.