Jonathan A Goldberg of Roi Gold Producitons: 5 Things You Need To Know To Create A Very Successful Podcast

An Interview With Jason Hartman

Define success for yourself. Think about what your goals are for the project. What you hope to achieve. Be realistic but also think long term. Instant success is rare. The podcast exists for itself. It is its own end and its own reward. Just publishing the podcast is success. Don’t forget to celebrate the small successes while looking toward making the big ones happen.

As part of my series of interviews about “5 things you need to know to create a very successful podcast”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Jonathan A. Goldberg.

Jonathan A. Goldberg is an award-winning playwright, author, poet, and audio dramatist. His stage work has been seen at HERE, The Public, Mixed Blood, The Will Geer Theatricum Botanicum, and many more. His wrote the audio dramas The Fall of the House of Sunshine (co-created with Matt Roi Berger), Radio Free Mushroom America, A Simple Herstory (co-created with Jocelyn Kuritsky), and The Land Whale Murders. He has a BA from the NYU’s the Gallatin School and an MFA from NYU’s Tisch School for the Arts.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would love to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit of your “personal backstory? What is your background and what eventually brought you to this particular career path?

I was born and raised in northern New Jersey. I was sort of a geeky, indoor kind of kid. Very sensitive, loved to read. I worked at a bookstore in a mall and would spend all my money going into New York City to see theater and visit museums. I saw everything from tiny off-off-off-off-off Broadway experimental shows to the big giant multimillion dollar musicals. If you know how you can find cheap tickets, or at least you could then.

I did my undergraduate and graduate work at NYU where I wrote across multiple genres. I met several producers and had my work featured around the city. I became part of Shelby Company and with them produced plays at Fringe festivals in the US and Canada. I participated in a short play event called Serials at the Flea Theater where you create weekly episodic plays that are performed around midnight or 1 AM. The audience then votes on which plays should continue.

It was through Serials that I met Matt Roi Berger who is a musician (Teen Girl Scientist Monthly) and also works in theater. We worked briefly together on an idea for a musical I had about President Warren G. Harding fighting an evil world conquering walrus in Alaska with the help of a salmon soda selling businesswoman and an overly helpful (and future president) Herbert Hoover. It did not go anywhere (alas). However, we decided we wanted to keep working together so, we co-created The Fall of the House of Sunshine, an episode musical comedy audio drama that ran for three seasons. Each episode has at least 3 original songs and features an amazing cast of Tony winners, Emmy nominees, and just a real murder’s row of talent both in front of and behind the mic. From that we formed Roi Gold Productions which is our audio drama production company.

Next, I wrote Radio Free Mushroom America a one-person audio drama about a lone survivor broadcasting in a mushroom haunted world.

I also worked on the audio drama A Simple Herstory which explores the lives of women who’ve run for president. It’s a fun experimental audio drama and the cast and crew of that show are also amazingly talented. A quick shout out to my producing partners on that show Jocelyn Kuritsky, Donya Washington, and Jenny Turner Hall. All amazing talents check them out!

And then there’s The Land Whale Murders which is my current show for Roi Gold. A Gilded Age satire about birders, murders, and a missing whale. It was based on a play I had produced in NYC about a decade ago. It’s the story of The Four Elementals, a group of science minded friends who are at odds with the evil Blow Hole Gang and their leader Pirate Penny. It’s a fast-paced farcical romp through Gilded Age Manhattan and features Teddy Roosevelt, Melvil Dewey, the dastardly whale oil baron Henry B. Lubbins, and the hard working almost policewoman Shaindel “Doubles” Blum. Cheap plug: www.landwhalepod.com or wherever you get podcasts. We just wrapped season 1 and it’s a really fun time!

Can you share a story about the most interesting thing that has happened to you since you started podcasting?

It’s hard to really pick one moment. One of the greatest pleasures is working with amazingly talented actors and hearing them bring a script to life. Hearing a show come together with music and effects; seeing that piece of art come together from the page to the released episode is a joy. And then knowing that it’s going out into the entire world is both humbling and exhilarating. We received an email from someone in Pakistan recently about the show. Also having gone to several podcast and audio drama conventions really brings home how large of audience there is for this kind of content.

Can you share a story about the biggest or funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson or takeaways you learned from that?

Oh man, we made so many mistakes. But I think they all were useful in making a better show overall. One thing we did for the first season of Fall of the House of Sunshine was we spent days, literal full days doing foley work. We would listen to audio and then try to match it with footsteps. We had shoes on our feet and just spent way too much time making footstep sounds. And it sounded … fine? I guess. It was totally not worth the effort when footsteps sound effects existed and sounded just as good. We could have saved so much time. Work smarter not harder. Find the best way to maximize your time and energy. Also don’t be afraid to ask for help or to admit when you feel stuck or overwhelmed. I think in the arts there’s too often a feeling that we need to pretend the work we create is effortless and sort of magical. That to show the work and stress is to somehow lessen the product. But if you feel stressed and upset, step back, take a breath, and re-evaluate. Sometimes an outside perspective is not only needed but also makes the work better.

How long have you been podcasting and how many shows have you aired?

The first episode of Fall of the House of Sunshine — the first podcast I co- created — premiered on February 7th, 2017. But we had been working on it for about two years before that. I think what people don’t realize about audio drama is, is that it takes a lot of prep work and scheduling. You are writing, recording, and making a whole show. It’s like staging a play or TV series. You have a large cast, and you have to get it all done. We recorded all of the first season in the course of a couple of weeks and then spent a huge amount of time assembling and creating that show. It was in total 3 seasons totaling about 40 main episodes and then just as many bonus and extra episodes.

For The Land Whale Murders, we just finished the first 13-episode season, but again pre-production was about a year and half before that. I wrote and edited the whole script and then helped to cast the show. We needed to wrangle over 70 actors and then cut and design all that audio. Our director, James Oliva, rehearsed all the actors. Our amazing engineer and designer Martin D. Fowler created all the effects and leveled and smoothed the audio, so it sounded coherent. And Matt Roi Berger composed music to the rough cuts of each episode. Audio drama is a lot more work than turning on a couple microphones and chatting.

I think people forget that podcasts are a medium not a genre. It would be like comparing the nightly news cast to a sitcom. Yes, they both air on television but what goes into creating them is vastly different. It’s the same for podcasts.

What are the main takeaways, lessons or messages that you want your listeners to walk away with after listening to your show?

The Land Whale Murders is a show very close to my heart. It began life as a play, and I’ve worked hard to expand the world. I feel that the Gilded Age echoes a lot of what we are facing today. Industrialization, depersonalization, ecological problems, discrimination, wealth disparity, and much more. I wanted to play with all these complex issues and warp and shape them through the lens of silly comedy and satire. The Land Whale Murders is a fast-paced alternate history comedy in the spirit of Mel Brooks and Monty Python: a true delight for history nerds, science geeks, and anyone who ever wanted to stand up for what was right even when they were very bad at doing it. It’s an unserious show about some serious issues; a pastiche of Victorian detective novels, penny dreadfuls, early science fiction, and farce. I think it can be both escapist and also remind us about the complex and real problems of our current world. Ultimately, like any art, I hope it makes the listener think and maybe see the world a little differently than before.

In your opinion what makes your podcast binge-listenable? What do you think makes your podcast unique from the others in your category? What do you think is special about you as a host, your guests, or your content?

Our show is very binge-able and really rewards relistening. The show is densely packed with references, callbacks, and subtle jokes that might fly by the first time through. I think there’s a fun quality and mystery that makes you want to press play on the next episode. The actors imbue the characters with a life and charm; I feel an audience wants to find out what happens to them. It’s a really fun escape into a world of mummies, dummies, and crummies. Not sure what ‘crummies’ are but I needed a third -ummies so there you go. Come for the murder stay for the bird attacks, super heroics, and Gilded Age nonsense. I’ve worked extremely hard to really build a world around these characters and populate it with little side stories and one-off characters that give the whole show a lived-in feeling.

Doing something on a consistent basis is not easy. Podcasting every work-day, or even every week can be monotonous. What would you recommend to others about how to maintain discipline and consistency? What would you recommend to others about how to avoid burnout?

Creating audio dramas is hard. It’s fine to admit that. It’s also a lot of work behind the scenes. You don’t often have the instant gratification of a weekly release schedule. Often you are spending months and months for a product that won’t see the light of day for a year. It can feel like you might never get the show out. And you have doubt and fear. There’s a lot of reasons to not make something. But the overriding reason to make something is the way it feels. Creating something can be painful, but not creating is more painful. However, it should also be fun, and you should ask for help, and try to surround yourself with amazing positive people. One of our best decisions on The Land Whale Murders was to bring on Jordan Skillman as a production assistant. Her positive upbeat energy, and work ethic really helped push me to work better and harder.

To help with burnout I’d suggest making checklists and understand that even a small task complete is one step closer to the goal. Don’t lose sight of the end, don’t spend too much time trying to make one tiny thing perfect. As the old saying goes, if we wait for the perfect time to start, we will never start. Accept that the act of simply creating something is amazing and take joy in that while also striving to be better and grow.

Ultimately, you have to find what works for you, if the project is more stress, heartbreak, and sorrow than joy, take a break, and step back. Self-care is especially important. Your fans will wait.

What resources do you get your inspiration for materials from?

Inspiration is everywhere. I read a good amount and I listen to a lot of audiobooks and podcasts. I love to travel, and I try to soak up and absorb stories when I’m away. But I can find moments of inspiration and snippets of ideas just walking to get coffee in the morning. I love to collect so I just grab little bits of everything and tuck them away. You never know what might lead to a story.

The Land Whale Murders for instance, I was inspired by the story of Eugene Schieffelin who wanted to release all the birds mentioned in Shakespeare into Central Park. And his doing so might have cause the destructive starlings to take route. I also was inspired by the whale oil case where the New York Courts had to decide legally if a whale was a fish or not. Also, by the story Theodore Roosevelt as police commissioner. He was the person who decided to let women and Jewish people serve in the police force and that created the character of Shaindel. I was also inspired by the colorful and dangerous gangs of the period. All these bits and bobs of history came together and inspired the overall story. Take from everything and make it your own.

Ok fantastic. Let’s now shift to the main questions of our discussion. Is there someone in the podcasting world who you think is a great model for how to run a really fantastic podcast?

I don’t know if there is one single person. I’ve met amazing audio drama creators and they all have something that makes them great. I’d say learn from as many people as you can and pick and choose what they do that works for you. I don’t think you should try to copy one person, but rather mix and match. Though one person I would like to single out is Sean Howard who created the Fable and Folly Network. Fable and Folly represents some of the most acclaimed narrative podcasts in existence and provide advertisers with creative sponsorships that truly stand out. (Full disclosure: both Land Whale Murders and Fall of the House of Sunshine are part of Fable and Folly.) Sean’s goal is to create a network that lets audio dramas earn money and become self-sustaining, to let creators showcase their voice but also earn a living. It’s great and innovative in the way it targets ads and helps to really build and grow a community. And the guy is always working and always thinking creatively, and I really admire him for that.

What are the ingredients that make that podcast so successful? If you could break that down into a blueprint, what would that blueprint look like?

I wish there were a magic formula or blueprint for success. But in the arts, it’s not easy. There are brilliant shows that don’t get the audience they deserve, and there are shows that are less creative that have huge followings. Basically: make the show you want to make. Don’t try to chase trends. Don’t try to copy something popular. Make something that is meaningful and important to you. And take the time and effort to really make it high quality. If it’s true to you and your vision it won’t matter if it’s #1 on iTunes because it’s a piece of art that you believe in. If it’s hollow and empty, it will feel hollow and empty to listeners. Make what you love, and you will find your home. It might not be fast, it might not be millions of listeners or dollars, but you’ll be happy(ish) and it’s a lot easier to keep pushing through and working on something you believe in.

You are a very successful podcaster yourself. Can you share with our readers the five things you need to know to create an extremely successful podcast? (Please share a story or example for each, if you can.)

The basic key readers have to remember is that success isn’t one thing. There are multiple versions of success: financial, artistic, personal fulfillment, audience engagement, etc. Your paycheck or follower count is not the be all, end all meaning of success. With that said her are five tips:

1. Make something that speaks to you. That you are passionate about.
2. Ask for help. Most audio dramas cannot be created alone. Fine people with parallel talents and work with them. Find other creators who have a similar style or vision and work with them.
3. Always look for ways to improve. Criticism can be hard to take, and you should not take all of it. But be open to suggestions. Be open to finding ways to up the quality. Your 20th episode should be better than your first episode.
4. Define success for yourself. Think about what your goals are for the project. What you hope to achieve. Be realistic but also think long term. Instant success is rare. The podcast exists for itself. It is its own end and its own reward. Just publishing the podcast is success. Don’t forget to celebrate the small successes while looking toward making the big ones happen.
5. Be generous. With your time, with your talents, with your funds (if possible). Help other creators if they ask. Give them shout outs, answer their questions. Other audio dramas are not your competition. This is not a contest. Their success isn’t your failure. It’s better to help raise each other up. We are all in this together.

Can you share some insight from your experience about the best ways to: 1) book great guests; 2) increase listeners; 3) produce it in a professional way; 4) encourage engagement; and 5) the best way to monetize it? (Please share a story or example for each, if you can.)

I will do my best but again every situation is different so try to find what works for you.

1. We don’t have guests, but we do have actors that we hire for the show. There’s a lot of ways to find them. Recommendations from other shows and creators. Placing ads in publications like Backstage. Asking friends of friends. You’d be surprised who will say yes if you ask. Have auditions but be mindful of everyone’s time. Don’t have them read and record more sides than is necessary.
2. Increasing listeners is always a challenge. I don’t think anyone has really cracked that egg. Getting listeners is hard. It’s frustrating, but the key is to put out an excellent product. Also networking helps. Doing promo swaps with similar shows. Being part of your community. Just know everyone struggles with it. It’s capricious at best.
3. Working with talented people will create a quality product. Care about the product. Ask questions. Be open to feedback.
4. Encouraging engagement is very hard. But if you put out a product that sounds good, is well written and acted, and is unique then the engagement will come. Remember, sometimes having a small but devoted fanbase is more meaningful than a large somewhat indifferent one.
5. Monetization means ads and merch. If you start to gain a following, the money folks will find you. If people think, there’s profit in something they will come to you. But make sure the sponsorship or ad or what-have-you is the right fit. Money is important, but it’s not everything.

For someone looking to start their own podcast, which equipment would you recommend that they start with?

It depends on what you want to do. If you are a writer, you don’t really need any equipment. You just write it and then the actors have the recording equipment. If you want to record audio, get a good microphone. Yeti makes some good affordable ones. But also read or watch tutorials about how to best use the equipment. I think programs like Audacity and Reaper are good for cutting audio and recording. Google is a great resource for any issues. You can find answers to almost any questions with a web search. Don’t be too proud to search for answers even to seemingly small and stupid problems. Someone out there has also experienced it.

Ok. We are almost done. :-) Because of your position and work, you are a person of enormous influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the greatest amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. :-)

That is a big question and I’m not sure if I can give it the answer it deserves. The greatest good would be to just be kind and to meet everyone with good faith and positive intentions. I’m not sure how to achieve that.

On the audio drama side of things, I’d say keep an open mind. Meet each show on the level it wants to achieve. Don’t get mad at a show for not being the show you want to be. Enjoy the show for what it’s trying to be. Assume good intentions. And don’t think you have to “solve” it. I think too often with art in the age of reddit and the like people think everything needs to be solved. Everything must be a puzzle. Sometimes things just are. Art can be weird and contradictory and a mystery. Not all mysteries need solutions. Enjoy the mystery.

Keep an open mind and open heart. If you don’t like something don’t listen, but you don’t need to trash it. Try to understand the work and effort that goes into creative endeavors. That doesn’t mean you have to give a pass to things you don’t like, but just be considerate. It can be fun to be glib and tear things down, but it’s easy to destroy, it’s easy to pick apart the natural imperfectness of things. Nothing is perfect, there will always be “plot holes” or “mistakes” or the like. But sometimes it’s good to embrace the imperfect, not in a blind way, but to love it and allow others to not to. Find the joy, share it, but also be cool when someone says, “that’s not for me.” Love your art, your entertainment, but don’t be defined by it. Maybe then we can just not take it all so seriously and relax. As Oscar Wilde once said, “all art is quite useless.”

How can our readers follow you online?

Please follow my shows here:

THE LAND WHALE MURDERS: @landwhalepod www.landwhalepod.com https://www.instagram.com/landwhalepod/

THE FALL OF THE HOUSE OF SUNSHINE: @thepodmusical www.podmusical.com

And you can get the shows on any podcast platform just search for them by name.

Also search and listen to my other shows: Radio Free Mushroom America and A Simple Herstory

Thank you so much for sharing your time and your excellent insights! We wish you continued success.