Journalist & Author Michele Mitchell: 5 Things You Need To Know To Create A Very Successful Podcast
An Interview With Jason Hartman
Who joins you is critical. Our guests have to be informative but also have the ability to actively listen and enjoy themselves. Don’t book just anyone because you need to fill the slot.
As part of my series of interviews about “5 things you need to know to create a very successful podcast”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Michele Mitchell.
Michele is an award-winning filmmaker, journalist and author known for her political and war crimes investigative work. She is the creator and host of The Cocktail Conversations with Michele Mitchell, a podcast that aims to get past seemingly insurmountable barriers to find understanding through honest conversation, mutual respect and a willingness to listen.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would love to get to know you a bit more. Can you tell us a bit of your personal backstory? What is your background and what eventually brought you to this particular career path?
I’m a journalist and author known for my filmmaking — I did the television documentary “Haiti: Where Did the Money Go?” which tracked what happened to the money donated by US citizens to US-based charities after the Haiti earthquake. (Basically, I nailed the American Red Cross for fiscal malfeasance.) I also directed a feature documentary called “The Uncondemned,” which told the story of the first time that rape was prosecuted as an international crime of war. That film was released theatrically and has traveled around the world a few times now. Both of them won a lot of awards, which was extremely fun. Before going behind the camera, I was in front of it, first as the political anchor for CNN Headline News, and then as Bill Moyers’ investigative correspondent on “NOW with Bill Moyers” on PBS.
My very first job, though, was on Capitol Hill, way back in the early 1990s when everyone still spoke with one another. Just as that was breaking apart, I went into broadcast journalism. And just as that began breaking apart, going from fact-based content to infotainment, I went into filmmaking and started studying mass violence. Working on “The Uncondemned” was a deep-dive into the worst that we can do to one another, and how it happens. I was also sent by the USC Shoah Foundation to Bangladesh in 2017 and 2018 to interview Rohingya who fled genocidal acts in Myanmar. Mass violence starts in the same place: the language of othering. And that was what made me take a hard look at what was happening in the US after several decades of steady encouragement of divisiveness, which was great for shareholder dividends but not so good for, say, historical survival.
I remember walking out of a refugee camp after a particularly tough day of interviews with the Rohingya and thinking, “I need to do something.” I thought about all of the elements that I had even been a part of, and all of the money that certain individuals and companies made by keeping us all furious with each other or in a steady state of fight-or-flight. This is what I now call “the anger industrial complex.” I knew that I needed to create some sort of content that pushed back against it.
Originally, “The Cocktail Conversations” was pitched as a limited series to Quibi, who turned it down, saying, “We aren’t going to do anything remotely controversial this year. We don’t want to offend our new audience.” To which I replied, “It’s 2020 — everything is going to be controversial this year.” I wish I’d added, “And what new audience?” But, I decided to move ahead with the show in podcast form because I had an intern at the time who relentlessly said, “This should be a podcast.” (That intern is now my co-creator, Hannah Thornton, and I still listen to everything she tells me.)
We taped the pilot with 12 people at my house on February 19, 2020. I remember this very clearly because on February 20th, I went down, flat, for six weeks, likely with COVID (this was before testing really was available, but eight days later, my guest speaker, a professor with access to testing, was officially diagnosed with COVID). So that was an interesting way to kick things off!
Can you share a story about the most interesting thing that has happened to you since you started podcasting?
I wish I could. It’s really, really, really good, but I promised to keep it off-record.
Can you share a story about the biggest or funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson or takeaways you learned from that?
I had an absolutely enormous mapache saunter into the room when we taped our first video version of the podcast. If you don’t know what a mapache is — and I sure didn’t — it’s kind of a raccoon-weasel that can be cute…or not. This was a not-cute version, and I literally scrambled up a wall. Keep in mind the episode was about trust, and among my guests were former FBI executive Lauren Anderson and former CIA operative Valerie Plame, both of whom said something like, “Pictures or it doesn’t exist.” I did not get pictures. But that is not the lesson here. The lesson is: ALWAYS LOCK THE DOOR BEFORE SHOWTIME.
How long have you been podcasting and how many shows have you aired?
The show debuted with an “Election Special.” I reunited the folks who had been in my first book, published in 1998, and it was flat-out awesome to do in November 2020. We’ve had 11 episodes, not counting our “Tasting Notes” side interviews with winemakers who we pour. We’ve got another four in edit, and two about to tape.
What are the main takeaways, lessons or messages that you want your listeners to walk away with after listening to your show?
Most people don’t trust “news” and are sick of “politics.” And many people are also tired of being stirred up all the time. So, what we try to do is tackle some tricky, tough subjects in an approachable, fun way that is both substantive and hopeful. You’re going to learn something and come away with the vibe that we can solve at least some of these problems without annihilating each other.
In your opinion what makes your podcast binge-listenable? What do you think makes your podcast unique from the others in your category? What do you think is special about you as a host, your guests, or your content?
First of all, we are short. Most episodes are around 15 minutes, which is about as long as you’d spend in a conversation at an actual cocktail party before moving on to the next one. I have known certain guests for decades, so there’s a kick-back familiarity going on. And all of them are extremely knowledgeable. These aren’t the spokespeople or the usual suspects you hear on the talk show circuit. These are people who have walked the walk. Also, we mix up ages, occupations, geographic locations — it’s not unusual to be working with three or four different time zones, which makes it funky when the premise is we send everyone the same thing to drink. Breakfast wine, anyone? And speaking of the pour, it was important to me that we highlight the smaller wineries. Often, we feature the side project of a well-known winemaker, like Dan Petrosky. He’s famous for his work at the venerable cabernet house Larkmead, but his personal line is Massican, which are Italian varietal white wines. Super tasty!
I’ve been asked, by the way, if our guests get drunk. Yes, sometimes they do! This is why we edit the show.
One exciting element we have just added: our Cocktail Conversations Road Trips. Each of these weekends has a theme, and the first one is “From Pause to Play” this July in Zihuatanejo, Mexico (so, it’s more of a get-on-a-plane trip). We’ll be exploring the trauma of the pandemic, lessons learned and challenges ahead. And mescal. We sold out within a week.
Doing something on a consistent basis is not easy. Podcasting every work-day, or even every week can be monotonous. What would you recommend to others about how to maintain discipline and consistency? What would you recommend to others about how to avoid burnout?
“The Cocktail Conversations” is labor-intensive, since there is some casting involved — we want to make sure the guests will play off of one another — a lot of research beforehand, the taping itself, editing, sound design and original music, with the latter changing from episode to episode. So, no joke: burn-out is real, especially when you aren’t backed by a major podcast studio. It can be overwhelming. But once we nailed the format, the delivery process became a lot smoother. So, figure out your format. Everything else will get easier.
What resources do you get your inspiration for materials from?
Everywhere. I am a voracious consumer of content, but I also actively listen both in person and on social media.
Ok fantastic. Let’s now shift to the main questions of our discussion. Is there someone in the podcasting world who you think is a great model for how to run a really fantastic podcast?
What’s especially exciting about the podcasting medium is how many different formats can work — from talk show to narrative structure to lecture format, and beyond. All that and the fact that the barriers-to-entry are so low means so many new voices can emerge. Personally, I am inspired by “How I Built This.” Right now, I am binging on “History of Byzantium.” (I have no idea why, except that “Byzantium” is fun to say).
What are the ingredients that make that podcast so successful? If you could break that down into a blueprint, what would that blueprint look like?
That really depends on how you measure “success.” Very few podcasts actually make money, but many can have influence. Whenever someone tells me that they were inspired by one of our episodes, that is “success” to me. I know that when I listen to “How I Built This,” I learn something every time and come away thoughtful.
You are a very successful podcaster yourself. Can you share with our readers the five things you need to know to create an extremely successful podcast? (Please share a story or example for each, if you can.)
People have got to want to listen, so who the host is and how they host are extremely important. I worked to deactivate my “broadcast journalism” voice (which, by the way, I worked very hard to develop, only to then un-develop) because it didn’t fit the idea, which was a fun cocktail party. I once had a conversation at a cocktail party with Tom Brokaw, back when he was still anchoring at NBC. It was extremely boring and stilted, mainly because he sounded exactly like he did on television. I think about that moment every time I track: Don’t be Tom Brokaw at the cocktail party.
Who joins you is critical. Our guests have to be informative but also have the ability to actively listen and enjoy themselves. Don’t book just anyone because you need to fill the slot.
Create active engagement. We primarily do this on Instagram, but whatever platform your audience is on, you need to be there as well. We do giveaways (which the younger audience loves) and also IG Live discussions.
A lot of podcasts have live broadcasts that an audience can attend. In our case, that doesn’t really work because we do edit (hey, we aren’t doing Drunk History, after all). But it wasn’t going to be interesting to me if we did “just” a podcast. I’m trying to move the needle against a structural problem, and an in-person component was going to be critical. Hence, The Cocktail Conversations Road Trips. That in-person element immediately separates us from the rest of the pack — which is the trick these days in the crowded podcast marketplace.
This one is just my opinion, but you need to have fun doing it. If you’re not, the audience will be able to tell, because it’s probably not enjoyable to listen to. I’m not saying you need to bro it up like Joe Rogan, but then again, when you tune in to his show, you know that guy is having a blast.
Can you share some insight from your experience about the best ways to: 1) book great guests; 2) increase listeners; 3) produce it in a professional way; 4) encourage engagement; and 5) the best way to monetize it? (Please share a story or example for each, if you can.)
We book great guests by thinking about it like a dinner party: Who are you going to seat next to each other, and why will that work? Chemistry is key.
Finding and increasing listenership is not formulaic, but there is a bit of helpful advice that I can pass on to you from wiser voices: be patient. It takes about six months before folks even find you, which is so different than launching a film or a book, where the market requires instant audience or else. So, cut yourself a break, focus on the product, and check the numbers later.
Engagement happens when people feel comfortable and confident that you’re going to listen to them. We noticed an uptick when we started posting questions on social media and even within the show itself — for example, on one show, I ended it by asking, “What do you think ‘intellectual humility’ is?” and then gave our Twitter handle.
Podcast monetization is the great mystery. Ours comes from sponsorship, in-person events (now that COVID has relented) and merchandise. We’re currently working with a local ceramicist on a really cool cup, for example. We didn’t want to have a mass-produced coffee mug or wine glass, because fulfillment is a pain in the neck, literally. Working directly with an artisan allows us to continue doing something that separates us from the others and also is audience engagement, since she came our way as a fan of the show. I’m especially excited about this potential.
For someone looking to start their own podcast, which equipment would you recommend that they start with?
An idea. I’m not kidding — if you don’t have a solid, developed, good idea for the premise, the fanciest tech package in the world won’t help you.
Ok. We are almost done. :-) Because of your position and work, you are a person of enormous influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the greatest amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. :-)
Well, this is The Key Question for me, because I am doing the show to do exactly that. I think we are at a very dangerous moment in time, with media and political elements banking on keeping us at each other’s throats, just as the challenges of the world are becoming ever greater. The massive climate change migration, for example, hasn’t even really yet begun. So, we have a choice: either figure out how to do it together — and then we survive — or continue on this path, and we don’t. It took roughly 30 years to build the Anger Industrial Complex, and we need to take it apart exponentially faster. I hope that our show can inspire that.
How can our readers follow you online?
www.thecocktailconversations.com
Thank you for these great insights and for the time you spent with this interview. We wish you only continued success!
