The Business Side Of Law: Mital Makadia and David Siegel Of Grellas Shah On 5 Things You Need To Create Or Lead A Successful Law Firm

An Interview With Eric Pines

You can’t be everything as a law firm. So you have to figure out what kind of law firm you are so that you can set up your business in a way to charge realistic rates, market yourself the right way and spend your money the right way.

Law school primarily prepares lawyers for the practice of law. But leading or starting a law firm requires so much more than that. It requires the entrepreneurial skills that any CEO would need to run a business; How to manage personnel, how to hire and fire, how to generate leads, how to advertise, how to manage finances, etc. On the business side of law, what does an attorney need to know to create a successful and thriving law practice? To address these questions, we are talking to successful law firm principals who can share stories and insights from their experience about the “5 Things You Need To Create Or Lead A Successful Law Firm”.

As a part of this series, we had the pleasure of interviewing Mital Makadia and David Siegel.

Mital Makadia is a partner at Grellas Shah. Her practice is focused on representing technology startups and startup founders.

David Siegel is a partner at Grellas Shah. He is an unusual startup lawyer in having done sophisticated legal work in both transactional and litigation matters: he is an accomplished startup lawyer and litigator who has extensive experience with our firm in handling a broad range of corporate, transactional, and intellectual property matters.

Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series! Before we dive in, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you tell us a bit about your ‘backstory’ and how you ended up where you are? Specifically we’d love to hear the story of how you began to lead your practice.

David Siegel: I began my legal practice at a large law firm in New York. It’s a very different type of experience working at a large law firm, particularly in your early years, because you’re divorced from everything about the business of practicing law. In terms of providing a model of a law firm, it was changing. It had been a law firm that was largely partner-centric with a lot of turnover, and associates were treated like contractors. After several years, I was ready to switch to something different.

I went to Grellas Shah because I wanted to work with startups. That’s where I met Mital (Makadia). We both saw an opportunity at Grellas Shah. We were associates at the time, and the partners were eager to grow associates. They encouraged associates to own our cases and projects. They also allowed us to help in the transformation of the firm. They took our concerns into consideration and allowed us to modernize the firm by buying technology to set the firm up for success. We also took ownership of redoing the firm’s website to make it more attractive to our potential clients, and it went from there. We took the initiative to create the firm’s culture. And those little things, like having holiday parties and other kinds of team building events, made it an actual law firm, as opposed to a loose conglomerate of people. All in all, it was all about taking ownership and seizing the opportunity to mold the firm into something we thought would be a special place for people to work.

I’m a huge fan of mentorship throughout one’s career. None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Who has been your biggest mentor? What was the most valuable lesson you learned from them?

Mital Makadia: George Grellas. He’s our founding partner at Grellas Shah. As David mentioned, we worked here as associates when George was the partner, and he was amazing. He really encouraged us and gave us a lot of opportunities early on to do what we thought was right. It was never a struggle — whether it was guiding the firm’s culture or where we wanted the firm’s resources to be allocated. Even in the work itself, he was always accommodating.

The biggest lesson I learned from him was that the best way to teach somebody is to show them. He never micromanaged or redid my work. I sat in on every meeting and every phone call with him, and I learned by watching. It was very subtle training. I didn’t even know I was being trained. Not only did it give me independence, but it also gave me ownership of my work. That’s hard to do when you have a partner or a mentor telling you exactly what to do. But his approach fostered growth and freedom.

From completing your degree to opening a practice and becoming a business owner, your path was most likely challenging. Can you share a story about one of your greatest struggles? Can you share what you did to overcome it?

David: Mital and I quickly went from being partners focused solely on legal services to managing the firm’s operations. Without much in the way of administrative support, we had to learn everything virtually overnight — from payroll to how financials were kept. While that was difficult and involved a lot of nights and weekends on non-client matters, it allowed us to take a really fresh look at everything.

There was no one to insist we hang on to old ways of doing things. So we looked at how we were spending money and asked ourselves if we really needed certain things and whether we were allocating resources as efficiently as possible. It’s difficult taking over the running of a law firm, but we found the positives.

Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share a story about how that was relevant in your own life?

Mital: “Forget the mistakes, learn the lessons.”

In the legal world, when we are working very detail-oriented work, mistakes happen. Everyone’s human. It’s easy to get bogged down with an error. For example, David and I both have beaten ourselves up and lost an entire weekend over a mistake. We just don’t have time for that; we have to move on. We have to forgive ourselves and forgive our team when mistakes happen.

We put processes in place so that we don’t make the same mistake twice, but even when mistakes are made, we have to move forward.

This is not easy work. What is your primary motivation and drive behind the work that you do?

David: There are two answers to this question. One is about being on the lawyer side, and the other is about managing the law firm side.

From the lawyer side, I enjoy working with entrepreneurs. That’s the best part about what we do in this practice. There’s always something new and exciting. Our clients are very enthusiastic and passionate, and we’re helping them. We provide expertise and advice they can’t get elsewhere.

There’s always that gray line between business and legal advice. But working with so many different clients and companies, we get to learn and gain another area of expertise that we can share with other clients and oftentimes first-time entrepreneurs.

On the running a law firm side, it’s not a secret that a lot of lawyers hate being lawyers; they go into it, but they hate doing it. And, you know, I think everybody at some point doesn’t like their job. But there’s a lot I like about being a lawyer. Conversely, running a law firm is a lot of work, but it allows me to control and make it a place where others might want to work.

What are some of the most interesting or exciting projects you are working on now?

Mital: We have both company side and investor side clients in the blockchain and crypto space. It’s really the wild wild west at this point. The law can’t keep up with the technology or the market. Being on the cutting edge of not only new technology, but a new world of business, is always exciting.

Fantastic. Let’s now shift to discussing the business of law. Can you tell us a bit about the nature of your practice and what you focus on?

David: Grellas Shah is a full-service boutique law firm focusing on startup company representation, complex commercial litigation and corporate law. Our startup practice provides the full range of legal services for emerging ventures, including corporate structuring, fundraising and venture financing, intellectual property protection and licensing, commercial contracts and M&A. Our commercial litigation practice services both early-stage and mature companies, as well as individuals, involved in complex civil disputes, including intellectual property litigation, securities and shareholder actions, employment litigation, contract disputes and internal investigation.

You are a successful attorney. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? What unique qualities do you have that others may not? Can you please share a story or example for each?

Mital:

1. Be good at reading the room. It’s probably important at any job, but especially as a lawyer. There are times when we have to provide business advice to inexperienced founders who are new to the market and don’t exactly know what’s common practice–what terms they should accept, the terms they should read, etc. While it’s not our job to tell them what to expect, it is our job to point out the legal issues and legal risks involved with any decision. So I think it’s important to not solely focus on giving legal advice, but to also focus on reading the room and trying to figure out what the clients are looking for.
2. Be a hard worker. In order to be a good lawyer and run a successful law firm, you have to put in the work and the hours. You have to find that strength and that reserve — not just the hours but the stress — and not let it get you down.
3. Learn to balance assertiveness and competitiveness. Lawyers tend to be very competitive and assertive. But the reality is that you always have to balance those two things, and that can be hard. That competitive nature makes you a good lawyer and makes you a good negotiator in serving a client, and it is the thing that might get you to win or get as much as possible. It’s a hard balance for a lawyer to have. You have to harness that competitiveness that makes you good at your job, but you also have to be able to let it go, because it’s not about you, and it’s not about winning. It’s about getting the overall best results for your client, which might not involve negotiating for every last piece of a win.

Do you think where you went to school has any bearing on your success? How important is it for a lawyer to go to a top-tier school?

David: The reality is that it’s easier to get a job at a large law firm if you went to a top-tier law school, and the training that you get at a large law firm can be very beneficial. It’s a credential that has its own credential. Once you’re in the field as a lawyer, it’s often not necessarily as important as the large law firm you were previously associated with.

Attending a top-tier law school opens a lot of doors, but it doesn’t impact how good a lawyer you are. However, I will say there is a difference between the litigation side and the corporate side. Going to a top-tier law school will help you get a clerkship and will help you get a more prestigious litigation job.

Managing being a law practitioner and a business owner is a constant balancing act. How do you manage both roles?

Mital: Typically, I try to break up my day. First thing in the morning, I focus on management items, and then I move to the legal work. I end each day with managerial work. While it does cut into the time I have to actually do the legal work, it’s equally important. It is also important to take work off your plate and delegate it to others when your plate is full.

One thing that works for me best is writing lists. I typically end each day with a list of what I need to do for the following day. I find that this sets me up for success each day.

Can you help articulate the entrepreneurial skills a lawyer needs to run and lead a successful law firm?

David: In some ways, it’s not that different from running any other type of business. As a partner or manager of a law firm, you’re running a professional services business and providing professional services. And that can be tough as a lawyer, because you’re trying to be your client’s trusted adviser, but you also have to remember that your client is also your source of revenue. So you do need to figure out how to sell to your clients. It’s not just about bringing in new clients; it’s important to offer existing clients other services without becoming such a salesperson that they no longer see you as their fiduciary, which you are.

Another piece is that the startup space changes so frequently. In terms of technology, it changes in terms of the legal issues that come up and what the marketplace can bear. So part of being a lawyer in this area is keeping ahead of what’s next.

You have to look at what you’re selling, because you can’t sell the same thing over and over again or else you’ll get stale. You have to look at your business on the expense side, too. Make sure that you’re spending money wisely, and be sure to look long-term and see where money should be invested to make money long-term. That might mean losing money today, but in a lot of ways, it’s the same challenge that any business owner has.

As a business owner you spend most of your time working IN your practice, seeing clients. When and how do you shift to working ON your practice? (Marketing, upgrading systems, growing your practice, etc.) How much time do you spend on the business elements?

Mital: David and I have a really good working relationship. When one of us is bogged down on legal work and the other brings up something management related, the other will pay attention, even if it’s not a convenient time. And so, on average, it works out because we each go through cycles of stress and worry about these things. We’re usually on top of our management items, because when one of us has brought it up, the other listens, pays attention and comes up with action items. It also helps to have partners who nudge you along.

Can you share some specific, non intuitive insights from our personal experience about how a leader of a law firm should:

• Manage personnel: (Mital) Don’t use your emotions as a manager. Try to figure out what’s helpful for an employee to hear. You need that employee to get from A to B. But try to figure out for each particular employee what would help them accomplish that. Sometimes, the person simply can’t get from A to B. So pushing them isn’t necessarily helpful.
• Hire and fire: (David) I have found that lawyers tend to be risk averse, and lawyers who touch employment disputes tend to be particularly risk averse about these kinds of HR issues. But the reality is that when you’re making a hiring decision, you’re not the advisor, and you’re not the lawyer. You’re the client, and you can’t freeze the business over potential things that somebody might stew over.

For your clients, you point out the risk. And then you leave it to the client to make the risk calculus. As a lawyer, when you’re deciding whether to fire someone, you’re the one making that risk calculus. So there really isn’t a perfect situation in terms of firing someone. Sometimes you just have to do it.

In terms of hiring, lawyers who went through the big law firm process learn terrible things about hiring attorneys. The interview process is choreographed. It’s largely about grades and what law school you went to, and the interviewers ask inane questions, and the people interviewing have no training on how to interview people.

When you’re at a small law firm and you’re hiring lawyers, it really matters who you hire. And you have to do your due diligence to figure out whether they’ll do a good job at being a lawyer even when they have the right background. But you also have to figure out how they’re going to impact the culture of a small firm; in a large firm, that’s usually not as big a deal because people can find a good cultural fit elsewhere.

In terms of figuring out if a potential new hire can do the job, interviewers have to unlearn silly questions, like “What was your favorite class in law school?” and actually try to figure out if the person can be a good lawyer. Questions should address whether the candidate has experience with the right kind of clients; how they would interact with you; and whether you want them interacting with your clients.

• Generate leads: (Mital) Generating leads and advertising are important, even when times are good. You have to look ahead a couple of years to when there could be a downturn. It’s important to do that consistently, and it’s important to do that from the beginning. It’s also important to have a consistent message that you’re trying to get out there. Otherwise, you’re just throwing money away. You also have to know what kind of firm you are and how to convey that message to your potential client base.
• Advertise: (see above)
• Manage finances: (Mital) Don’t be pennywise and pound foolish. You don’t want to go overboard with your expenses. It’s important to reevaluate spending every year or every couple of years to make sure that everything is working for you. If it’s not, cut it. But don’t pinch pennies because you’re trying to get a business off the ground or trying to keep the business going. That takes resources.

Ok, thank you. Here is the main question of our interview about the business side of law. What are your “5 Things An Attorney Needs To Know In Order To Create A Successful And Thriving Law Practice”?

• (Mital) — Be sure that you have a steady business and a strong referral network before venturing out on your own. I think it’s easy for somebody who’s two or three years out of law school and who thinks they can do the work, they can do it on their own and they can do it for cheaper than at a big firm. They think, “I’ll just put up a shingle, and I’ll start doing work,” but they don’t understand the business model. And without understanding where your clients are coming from, before you set up that firm, it’s important to understand what your referral sources are, and whether that pipeline is sustainable.
• (David) Know what your firm is. You have to figure out where your firm fits into the range of law firms that exist to provide services to a certain type of client. So you might sell yourself as an expert with tons of experience in a certain area of law or with a certain type of client. If that’s the case, you have a certain type of messaging, and you have a certain type of pricing model. Or, you might sell your firm as one that can efficiently do more routine types of work in a given area. If that’s the case, you have to charge less.
• Both types of law firms need to exist, and clients need to go to both types.

But you can’t be both. You can’t be everything as a law firm. So you have to figure out what kind of law firm you are so that you can set up your business in a way to charge realistic rates, market yourself the right way and spend your money the right way.

If you’re selling yourself as an expert and charging low rates, it won’t make sense, and you probably can’t afford to do it. Or if you’re selling yourself as the one who does routine things a million times, you’re going to have to charge less. Otherwise, why would somebody come to you when they can go to the experts?

• (Mital): Culture is important. I think it’s easy to say, “We’re just going to be three attorneys, and we’re going to set up a firm. And we’re going to do this without giving thought to what kind of firm we are.” You want to make it a place that can thrive and survive beyond just two or three years, and it should be a place where people want to work. You have to attract the people you want to work with, and they have to want to work with you.
• At a small firm, we don’t have the luxury of absorbing somebody counter to our culture, because one person or two people can break the culture of a small firm. Be sure that you have a cohesive work environment. And that’s not to say everybody has to be the same; every employee is not going to behave the same way. We have to be okay with that. But overall, there have to be some non-negotiables that are important to your culture, and you have to stick with that.
• Realize that current clients are probably your greatest referral source. Your client might come to you for “X,” but making sure they know you do “Y” and “Z” is important in the event they might come to you for “Y” and “Z”.
• Also, people talk about the lawyers they’ve enjoyed working with. And people ask other business people if they have a lawyer who does “X.” That’s a great way to get personal referrals.
• What that means for an attorney is that they should holistically make sure their clients have good experiences. It doesn’t mean just doing good work, even though that’s important. Make sure your client feels good about the experience. That can mean making sure your billing practices are transparent. And it can mean, sometimes, giving your client permission to “give” on something that you think they should hold out for.
• If you don’t make your client feel good in the end, why are they going to feel good about their experience with you? So that’s important for a lawyer: to make sure that clients walk away happy not just in the work you did but with the experience and the feeling.
• (Mital) Run your firm like a business. I think it’s very easy for lawyers to get wrapped up in their own myths, where they think we’re kind of above it all. We’re just doing advocacy work for our clients. And we’re focused on the work.
• Sometimes lawyers aren’t “allowed” to behave as if we’re running a business, but we have to strike that balance. And as a fiduciary, we do have professional obligations to the client; but at the same time, we’re running a business.

You are a person of enormous influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. :-)

(David) You know, we’re in the startup world. From the perspective of the legal world, don’t fall into the trap of thinking there’s just one way to do things. There’s a lot in this legal world, this legal ecosystem that we’re in, that is driven by the norms set out by a very small set of large law firms that make their money off of repeat investor business. As a result, a lot of startups and founders chase that way of doing things. It’s great for investors, but not necessarily so great for founders, and there are no startups without founders. The ideas come from somewhere, and the time and energy comes from somewhere. Investors play an important role, but the time and energy and ideas do not come from the investors.

I would like to see a world where the people who are really driving these startups that are making enormous changes in our society are able to break free from an established way of doing everything that is largely just centered on what investors want.

How can our readers further follow your work online?

Website: https://grellas.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/GrellasShahLLP

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/grellas-shah-llp/

Entrepreneur: https://www.entrepreneur.com/author/mital-makadia

This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success and good health!

About the Interviewer: Eric L. Pines is a nationally recognized federal employment lawyer, mediator, and attorney business coach. He represents federal employees and acts as in-house counsel for over fifty thousand federal employees through his work as a federal employee labor union representative. A formal federal employee himself, Mr. Pines began his federal employment law career as in-house counsel for AFGE Local 1923 which is in Social Security Administration’s headquarters and is the largest federal union local in the world. He presently serves as AFGE 1923’s Chief Counsel as well as in-house counsel for all FEMA bargaining unit employees and numerous Department of Defense and Veteran Affairs unions.

While he and his firm specialize in representing federal employees from all federal agencies and in reference to virtually all federal employee matters, his firm has placed special attention on representing Veteran Affairs doctors and nurses hired under the authority of Title. He and his firm have a particular passion in representing disabled federal employees with their requests for medical and religious reasonable accommodations when those accommodations are warranted under the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (ADA). He also represents them with their requests for Federal Employee Disability Retirement (OPM) when an accommodation would not be possible.

Mr. Pines has also served as a mediator for numerous federal agencies including serving a year as the Library of Congress’ in-house EEO Mediator. He has also served as an expert witness in federal court for federal employee matters. He has also worked as an EEO technical writer drafting hundreds of Final Agency Decisions for the federal sector.

Mr. Pines’ firm is headquartered in Houston, Texas and has offices in Baltimore, Maryland and Atlanta, Georgia. His first passion is his wife and five children. He plays classical and rock guitar and enjoys playing ice hockey, running, and biking. Please visit his websites at www.pinesfederal.com and www.toughinjurylawyers.com. He can also be reached at eric@pinesfederal.com.