Therapist Renée Zavislak on Five Keys to Happy, Lasting Marriages

An Interview With Nancy Landrum

REINFORCE! PRAISE! REWARD! All animals, including humans, repeat only those behaviors that are reinforced. So often, we get into the habit of only telling our partners what we don’t like. Creating a culture of appreciation is an absolute necessity for long term, committed happiness. Catch them being good! That’s the mantra. This is another paradigm shift: instead of being on guard for those behaviors from your partner that you don’t want, try being on guard for those you do want, and reflect that back when you receive them. You will be that much more likely to receive them again!

Marriage is a complex journey that combines love, partnership, and mutual growth. To explore the foundations of successful marriages, we are talking to experienced marriage and family therapists. who guide couples through their challenges and triumphs. This series will delve into professional advice and strategies that foster long-lasting, fulfilling relationships. As a part of this series I had the pleasure of interviewing Renée Zavislak.

Renée Zavislak is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, nutritionist, relationship coach, and the host of “Psycho Therapist: The Podcast.” She specializes in Trauma/PTSD, high-conflict couples, and anxiety in her private practice in Sonoma County, California, where she lives with her husband and son, as well as in her satellite offices in Los Angeles, San Diego, and New York City. In her free time, she can be found fawning over her Canine-American soulmate, Chili.

Thank you so much for doing this with us! Can you tell us a story about what inspired you to become a therapist?

Well, it isn’t the brightest tale, but it’s one that many of us in the field will tell. I grew up in a chaotic household with parents who fought regularly. My survival strategy was to understand what was going on with my parents as individuals and as a couple so that I could feel some sense of control and mastery over the dynamics in our family. While this was a lot of pressure on my developing self, it gave rise to a deep interest in and aptitude for understanding human behavior. It also gave me a whole bunch of my own mental health problems! I struggled at many different points in my life to find a therapist who could help me, and those experiences have informed how I approach the work I do now.

What are some common misconceptions about marriage that you frequently encounter in your work?

So many! Here are the top 3:

1. They shouldn’t have to ask for what they want. Wrong! The only time one should expect to have their needs met without asking is childhood. Our parents are supposed to know when we need a food, or a hug, or some sleep, or an explanation. We often bring these unmet needs into our adult relationships, along with the deep desire to have them met without asking, and then we feel we aren’t being loved right when it doesn’t happen. In fact, this is a signal that we are operating out of our child consciousness; it is a call to healing.
2. Someone who was once a cheater is always a cheater. Absolutely untrue. There a 3 reasons people cheat: immaturity, a subconscious desire to shake up a relationship that is stagnant or locked into a problematic dynamic, and character. In my experience, most infidelity situations are the results of the first 2. Every once in a while, the cheater is just a cheater, but, truly, this is rare.
3. Communication is their biggest problem. Most often, a couple’s biggest problems are projection and defensiveness. While these issues certainly present themselves via communication, it is less common for communication itself to be the issue.

How can couples keep the romance alive, especially after many years together?

There is a very delicate balance that couples need to achieve in order to keep romance and passion alive — that is, creating emotional intimacy without overfamiliarity, Esther Perel explains this masterfully in “Mating In Captivity.” Passion is sustained by tension, by the possibility of surprise. And when we expect our partners to be too many things — friend, lover, coparent, confidante, cheerleader, partner in crime — we suffocate the relationship. As Esther says, “Fire needs air!” Unfortunately, as a society we have lost the focus on community. It used to be that most of us had other people in our lives to whom we could outsource some support; it wasn’t our partner to whom we told everything and from whom we expected all of the validation we need. Now, couples are more isolated, and Millennial couples especially have overcorrected the failings of their parents’ relationships to a problematic degree. That is, they talk too much. I worked with a couple once who, in a regular weekly session, told me this story:

I got home from work earlier than usual, and he didn’t expect to see me when he came home. So he looked surprised, and I misinterpreted it as displeasure, so then I was edgy towards him. It got really tense, but we processed it for a few hours, and we’re good now.

A few hours?! One doesn’t need to discuss a simple misunderstanding for hours. But where older couples often struggle with communication, the younger generations have gone so far in the other direction that they are dooming the relationships. This couple above, for example, is only one year into their marriage and have already spent hundreds of hours “processing.” It’s just too much. Fire needs air. This communication saturation is the enemy of sexual desire.

What are some common conflicts that couples face, and how can they resolve these conflicts in a healthy manner?

For cohabitating couples, especially those with children, inequity in household tasks is probably the most common conflict I hear about in couple therapy. Sometimes the arguments about household tasks are symbolic and evince a deeper conflict, but often they are simply about one partner (or both!) feeling that they are carrying more than their fair share of task-weight. The Swedes have developed a brilliant document for assessing the objective equality or lack thereof in household tasks; it’s called the Checklist for Gender Equality in Your Everyday Life. I find this to be a brilliant tool for starting the conversation in a tangible place. The checklist asks both partners to rate each in an exhaustive list of family and household chores for themselves and for their partner: do they do the task always, often, sometimes, or never? Each partner rates and then they compare! It cuts through a lot arguing around perception. Don’t get me wrong; the comparison part of the process can definitely start some arguments on its own, but these are often the pieces that we work through in therapy.

Other common issues about which many couples argue are money/spending habits; parenting strategies; each other’s families; sex, specifically frequency; and communication. No matter the issue, the healthiest way to resolve conflict is to have learned strategies before the fights start. In other words, I encourage couples to attend therapy while things are good. It is so much harder to resolve conflict once egos are activated and defenses are up. Which brings me to what I believe is the most important strategy for resolving conflict in a healthy way: DO. YOUR. OWN. WORK. Each partner needs to do individual work in therapy or on their own in two major areas: childhood trauma in the nervous system and ego activation. The single most complicating variables in any couple conflict are the partners’ unresolved childhood issues and ego sensitivities. These two things lead to endless projection and defensiveness — and these are for sure the most nefarious forces in couple conflict.

How important is trust in maintaining a strong marital bond? What strategies do you recommend for rebuilding trust after it has been broken?

Trust is critical because it is a necessary condition for vulnerability, which is a necessary condition for intimacy, which is a necessary condition for a strong marital bond. The only truly potent strategy for repairing broken trust is to engage with each other with honesty and integrity over time. The time is critical. Once one partner’s system has experienced a trust violation, the brain and body will need repeated examples of safety over a period that differs from person to person. Basically, the brain needs to relearn trust, and the soul needs forgive in order to be open enough to internalize the new experiences of honesty and connection.

Can you share some practical communication techniques that couples can use to improve their relationship?

My favorite communication strategy is the Gottman Method’s strategy for processing conflict. It ensures that each partner says ONLY what needs to be said and in a way that is unlikely to trigger the other person’s defensiveness. It goes like this:

PARTER A: When you do X (forget to call when you are late, for example), I feel Y (abandoned, for example).

PARTNER B: I heard you say that when I forget to call, you feel abandoned.

PARTNER A: Something you can do to help me next time is Z (text me your ETA each work night).

PARTNER B: I heard you say that I can help you in the future by texting each night I work.

AND THAT IS IT! No editorializing. No “You always…” or “You never…” or “You are…” Notice the first sentence does not contain the phrase “it makes me” or “you make me.” It’s not “When you don’t call it makes me feel abandoned.” First of all, that is likely to trigger defensiveness, and secondly, it is not always true! There are so many other reasons we react as we do to our partners. The important content here is sharing with your partner how you feel and asking them to help you feel better without attacking or blaming. Couples generally find this super awkward — and it is! But this is a great place to practice employing humor. Let it be dorky! It’s a game changer.

What are five skills or concepts that you’ve found beneficial in your marriage that you also share when working with couples?

1. MODEL WHAT YOU WANT, NOT WHAT YOU GET: For example, if your partner struggles to communicate with vulnerability, share your own emotional experiences. The old conventional wisdom that advises us to pull away or feign indifference in order to get attention from our partners only exacerbates the problem. Don’t do it!

2. BE CURIOUS! ASK QUESTIONS! Too much mind reading is fatal to healthy relationships. Instead of assuming you know what is happening with your partner, ask. In addition to avoiding misunderstandings, this is a potent intimacy builder. For example, if you notice your partner is feeling something, ask them to tell you the story behind it. Like “I notice you take it really hard when I cancel plans. Where do you think that came from? Did you feel a lot of disappointment when you were a kid?”

3. WHEN IN DOUBT, USE TOUCH AND EYE CONTACT. One of the most beneficial skills for couples to learn is how to help each other self soothe. Using touch and empathetic eye contact stimulates oxytocin production, which makes us feel attached and safe. I have seen couples head off major blowups when one partner stops, touches the other’s arm, and makes eye contact.

4. REMEMBER YOU ARE ON THE SAME TEAM! One of the simplest but most toxic problems couples have is that when they hit conflict, they retreat into oppositional positions. They go to opposite sides of the ring. In fact, almost always, both partners want the same thing, whether that is to make the relationship work, decide on the right vacation spot, or raise happy kids. When we adopt an oppositional posture, we lose sight of the fact that we are in it together. One of the most important parts of couple therapy in my office is this paradigm shift.

5. REINFORCE! PRAISE! REWARD! All animals, including humans, repeat only those behaviors that are reinforced. So often, we get into the habit of only telling our partners what we don’t like. Creating a culture of appreciation is an absolute necessity for long term, committed happiness. Catch them being good! That’s the mantra. This is another paradigm shift: instead of being on guard for those behaviors from your partner that you don’t want, try being on guard for those you do want, and reflect that back when you receive them. You will be that much more likely to receive them again!

How hard is it to practice what you teach couples in therapy?

Ha! Incredibly difficult. I often tell the couples I work with that if they heard me in conflict with my husband they would never come back. Doesn’t she hear any of the things that she says? She’s a mess! Seriously though, the best thing that has ever happened to my marriage is that I became a couple therapist. There are so many times when I am about to point something out to a client and realize, “Oh geez. I do this all the time.” It has been a humbling endeavor! But make no mistake: my husband and I have our own therapist.

None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Who has been the inspiration or model for your marriage? Can you share a story about that?

My mentor, Roger Lake, is my model for everything. When I was a therapy intern and he was my supervisor, I often came to him with complaints about my marriage, and he would laugh. Laugh! At first it surprised me and maybe offended me a little. By the second or third time, though, I realized how absurd my ranting was. It was endlessly helpful to take a step back and stop taking everything so seriously. There are absolutely very serious and painful issues that couples face. Absolutely. But a lot of the content that keeps couples bickering is straight up silly.

Is there any particular book or concept that helped you overcome a turning point in your marriage?

The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk may have saved my marriage years ago when I was immersed in work on my own childhood trauma. My husband, who does not have his own childhood trauma, struggled to understand my emotions and reactions and was scared by a lot of what came up as I did the work. The book is a work of absolute genius and explains trauma in such a comprehensive and empathetic way. It allowed my husband to understand and tolerate the intensity of my work. That said, the books that have helped us the most in general and that I most often recommend to my clients are Esther Perel’s Mating In Captivity and The State of Affairs; Sue Johnson’s Hold Me Tight; and Terry Real’s Us.

How have you used your success to bring goodness to the world?

The whole reason I started my podcast was to make healing accessible to those who do not have access to therapy, whether because it is financially prohibitive, they aren’t internally resourced, or they can’t find the right healer. I teach as much as I can to our guests and listeners, and I do free follow up sessions with every guest. I regularly have clients whom I haven’t seen in years text or email me some version of this: “I was going to make an appointment, but I have been listening to the pod, and it cleared it for me!” I hadn’t intended for the pod to cut into my income, haha. I’m a bad capitalist. I love that the podcast helps when one doesn’t have a skilled therapist on hand.

You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the world:

HEAL YOUR NERVOUS SYSTEM. To paraphrase Rudolf Steiner, there is war outside because there is a war inside. If all of us focused on nervous system healing, we would live infinitely more harmoniously. And this can be as simple as 3 minutes of mindfulness work (breathwork, meditation, sensory scans) a day. A small daily practice on everyone’s part, or even most people’s part, would, I promise, change the world. Try me!

Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quotes”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?

Once, when I was an intern, I had a session with a client that was so sad, I couldn’t shake it. I was crying to Roger, worrying that I would never be a good therapist if the pain was this much. He said, “This is the whole job, Renee. And I don’t mean the job of being a therapist. I mean the job of being a human: it is to make your peace with the fact that the world is really sad, and then figure out how to be happy inside that.” It sounds dark when you first hear it. Once it sets in, though, it is wildly liberating. It has saved me. I am a trauma specialist; I hear so much pain. It would be easy to go to the dark side. So I stay focused on this work exactly as Roger has outlined it.

We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them :-)

Laughter is my favorite medicine. It is a big part of how I work with clients and how I stay focused on surviving the dark matter that is inevitable in trauma and family therapy. So the people I most want to sit with are those who make me laugh. Chris Rock, Rory Scovel, Natasha Legerro, Jim Carrey, Kevin Hart, Nathan Fielder: hit me up!

How can our readers follow your work online?

Psycho Therapist: The Podcast is on Apple, Spotify, and Amazon. I teach tons via my Instagram and never ever do paid ads; I am @psycho_therapist_renee. Lastly, the podcast website is full of info and resources! PsychoTherapistThePodcast.com

Thank you so much for joining us. This was very inspirational.

About the Interviewer: At 79 years young, Nancy guides couples to transformative relationship skills, specializing in strategies for stepfamilies to succeed. Nancy brings her MA in Spiritual Psychology, personal experience and research proven strategies to guide couples to healthy communication skills and relationship happiness. Nancy has contributed to multiple media outlets including Huffington Post, Psych Central, and Woman’s Day magazine, to name a few. Nancy coaches in person, on Zoom, in her online courses at www.MillionaireMarriageClub.com , on “Relationship Rehab” TV and Talk and has authored eight books, including “How to Stay Married & Love It!” and “Stepping TwoGether: Building a Strong Stepfamily”. Nancy’s goal is to lower the divorce rate globally.