Top Lawyers: Lance R Drury On The 5 Things You Need To Become A Top Lawyer In Your Specific Field of Law
An Interview with Eric L. Pines
I think you have to be curious, you have to have a thirst for knowledge, you have to have the motivation to be the expert in your field. I think we’ve achieved that. So, when someone asks, “What do you do in this leadership course at 70 years old?” I say, “The day I die is the day I’ll stop learning.” I think you must maintain a continuous drive to learn because things are always changing. As an example, back when I was just a small-town lawyer, I completed 15 hours of continuing legal education a year. Now, all the attorneys in my office, including the Enrolled Agent, undertake 50 to 100 hours or more annually, just to keep up with the IRS.
The legal field is known to be extremely competitive. Lawyers are often smart, ambitious, and highly educated. That being said, what does it take to stand out and become a “Top Lawyer” in your specific field of law? In this interview series called “5 Things You Need To Become A Top Lawyer In Your Specific Field of Law”, we are talking to top lawyers who share what it takes to excel and stand out in your industry.
As a part of this interview series, I had the pleasure of interviewing Lance R. Drury.
The Law Office of Lance R. Drury, founded in 2006, has been a leading legal practice in Ste. Genevieve, Missouri, St. Louis, Missouri, San Antonio, Texas, and Nashville, Tennessee specializing in tax law matters. With over 35 years of experience, Lance is a nationally-recognized tax resolution attorney providing innovative solutions to IRS tax dilemmas with a team that is dedicated to providing clients personalized and effective solutions for tax planning, dispute litigation, and tax resolutions. For more information, please visit https://www.lancedrurylaw.com/
Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dig in, our readers would love to get to know you a bit more. What is the “backstory” that brought you to this particular career path in Law? Did you want to be an attorney “when you grew up”?
Well, my journey to becoming an attorney really started with my great aunt, Ethel Smith, who was my mentor. She worked for an attorney in Ste. Genevieve during the 1920s and 1930s. I believe she always regretted not taking the bar. Back in those days, it wasn’t common to simply decide to go to law school; it was a significant leap. So, more than my mother and father, she was the one who truly pushed me. They didn’t push me in any specific direction, but she guided me towards becoming an attorney. Therefore, I think it all started with her, which is why I pursued this career path.
Can you tell us a bit about the nature of your practice and what you focus on?
Yes, I am a tax resolution attorney, meaning I secure agreements for clients with the IRS and state taxing authorities when they owe back taxes and are unable to pay them. That’s our focus. We collaborate with the Missouri Department of Revenue, the Illinois Department of Revenue, the Tennessee Department of Revenue, as well as the IRS. However, the vast majority of our cases involve the Internal Revenue Service.
You are a successful attorney. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? What unique qualities do you have that others may not? Can you please share a story or example for each?
Well, that’s a good question. Probably resilience — never giving up. Working long hours for little pay was common in my early days as a small-town law office attorney. Many attorneys in small towns have to be generalists, which isn’t very lucrative. About 20 years ago, I was in my office one night when I discovered a gentleman from Colorado promoting tax resolution. Intrigued, I bought his books, attended a seminar in Tampa, Florida, joined his special group in Colorado, and eventually decided to venture out on my own, despite lacking a marketing background.
Resilience, I believe, is about persevering until the issue is resolved. Another distinct trait is thinking differently, a hallmark of entrepreneurs. My transition from attorney to entrepreneur began when I started viewing my practice as a business, which significantly improved my financial outcomes.
My independence was catalyzed by the realization that I wasn’t bound by territorial restrictions or obliged to pay a monthly marketing fee. That realization spurred my decision to expand into St. Louis. Within 30 days of deciding, ‘We’re going to be in St. Louis,’ I was on the radio there and had opened an office. This expansion set the stage for our current success, which later included opening an office in Nashville. Despite initial financial losses in Nashville, insights from my mastermind group helped me persevere, and we’re now thriving there with plans for further expansion.
Work ethic, resilience, and a strategic mindset have been pivotal. In addition to hard work and continuous learning — since I largely taught myself this specialty — you need to work smart. Finding a niche area of law that few attorneys want has allowed me to command significant fees, particularly because of the widespread fear of the IRS. These three traits, I believe, distinguish me.
Do you think you have had luck in your success? Can you explain what you mean?
Well, if I hadn’t been lucky enough to stumble across that article late at night, and if I hadn’t been in the office at 9 or 10 o’clock at night, I probably would never have noticed it. So, I guess there was a lot of luck involved in coming across it. Things just seemed to blossom from there. I’ve been able to hire many good people. Thus, I consider myself very fortunate that my support staff doesn’t quit until they retire. In fact, I currently have two staff members who have been with me for more than 10 years. Additionally, I had two who retired after lengthy tenures: one had been here for a bit more than 10 years and stayed until retirement; another stayed until she retired, having been here for precisely 10 years.
Do you think where you went to school has any bearing on your success? How important is it for a lawyer to go to a top-tier school?
Well, I don’t believe the school I attended has significantly impacted my success. Attending a top-tier school, however, probably makes a considerable difference initially. It might help you secure a better job right from the start. But, you still need to prove yourself daily. While graduating from a prestigious law school aids in landing an excellent job immediately, your continued performance is what truly matters. Over the long haul, the school you attended does not determine your success.
Based on the lessons you have learned from your experience, if you could go back in time and speak to your twenty-year-old self, what would you say? Would you do anything differently?
I’ve encountered many challenging times along the way. I was hospitalized for depression and underwent shock treatments. I’ve battled depression on a few occasions. But to my 20-year-old self, I would say: you just have to keep going. Eventually, things will change for the better. Learning this was a difficult journey for me.
It took me a very long time to embrace that lesson. Looking back, I wonder, ‘Why was I so overwhelmed by depression at the time?’ The key is to persevere. My great aunt used to say, ‘That’s no hill for a stepper.’ It’s an old Southern expression implying that no matter how difficult the circumstances, you must continue moving forward. With persistence, you’ll eventually surmount the hill and succeed.
This is not easy work. What is your primary motivation and drive behind the work that you do?
Well, my primary motivation stems from feeling as though I’ve wasted several years of my life. I believe I haven’t achieved enough, yet I know I have the capability to assist many more people. My goal is to help as many individuals as I can with their tax issues.
Once, during a Sunday morning radio show in St. Louis, I described my work as ‘saving Fay Wray from the clutches of King Kong,’ with King Kong representing the Internal Revenue Service. This is the reason I am committed to expanding the office. We’re preparing to hire two or three more attorneys, and I’m considering going national, at least on the radio, this summer. My drive to get to the office by six o’clock most mornings is fueled by this purpose: to assist as many people as possible. It brings me immense personal satisfaction.
What are some of the most interesting or exciting projects you are working on now?
I’m currently enrolled in a leadership course, markedly different from anything taught in college or similar settings. I’ve completed two-thirds of the course and am still trying to discern its ultimate goal, a sentiment seemingly shared by everyone in the group.
Additionally, I’m focusing on expanding our presence by opening an office in San Antonio. Another goal is to explore a partnership with Clay Travis for advertising on his national show. Given his Nashville roots and my office there, he’s familiar with my work.
Rush Limbaugh’s former agent, Dominic Lapasi, knows me because he tried to recruit me to advertise on Rush’s show years ago. Now, he is trying to recruit me to advertise on Clay Travis’ radio show. A current challenge is preparing for the significant increase in calls expected from advertising to an audience of 9 million viewers. The priority is ensuring we have sufficient staff to manage the influx effectively.
Where do you go from here? Where do you aim to be in the next chapter of your career?
The next chapter involves growing the firm and helping as many individuals as possible. Currently, we serve over 800 clients. My ambition is to expand our client base to 1,500 or even 2,000 clients simultaneously. That would rock my world.
Without sharing anything confidential, can you please share your most successful “war story”? Can you share the funniest?
Probably the most successful case involved a client who owed $2 million to the IRS yet didn’t pay a dime, as the system fundamentally relies on an individual’s ability to pay. The challenge in this case stemmed from his having sold several McDonald’s franchises, after which he squandered his wealth on gambling. While gambling venues report winnings to the IRS, they do not disclose losses. Adding to his misfortune, he underwent a divorce.
Nevertheless, the IRS failed to collect any portion of the $2 million he owed. This scenario isn’t unique; we find that 85 to 90% of our clients don’t repay the full amount owed, with 10 to 15% never paying anything. Achieving such outcomes requires exhaustive effort, including the analysis of financial statements and the need for comprehensive documentation. This entails scrutinizing credit card statements, bank statements, debit card usage, and cash receipts to secure the most favorable result possible. Moreover, we guide our clients in optimizing the structuring of their assets and expenses, thereby securing a more advantageous arrangement with the IRS.
Ok, fantastic. Let’s now shift to discussing some advice for aspiring lawyers. Do you work remotely? Onsite? Or Hybrid? What do you think will be the future of how law offices operate? What do you prefer? Can you please explain what you mean?
Well, I work on-site, though we do have one remote employee. I believe one of the things I need to learn is that people are going remote. As such, I can foresee this becoming more prevalent, necessitating a system whereby employees report at the end of their day to maintain accountability. I can’t simply allow them to work independently without ensuring they are indeed working. This trend will likely continue into the future. However, I will still maintain physical offices, as many individuals prefer personal meetings. Since the pandemic, I’ve conducted more phone consultations, but next Thursday, for instance, I have four meetings scheduled in St. Louis because people wish to meet me in person. Thus, I foresee a blend of both approaches in my practice.
I also believe that artificial intelligence will play a significant role, though I don’t envision it replacing attorneys. It could substitute for attorneys in drafting legal documents, but not in negotiations or dealings with entities like the IRS. AI is an excellent tool for tasks such as planning a 60-second video or determining the script for a YouTube commercial. It may be useful for certain legal principles, but accuracy must be verified. For example, there was a case in New York where an attorney submitted a brief using ChatGPT, and all the cases cited were invalid. Hence, caution is essential. I believe AI is a valuable tool that can save time and enhance productivity. However, at least in my lifetime, and considering I am 70, I doubt it will replace attorneys, especially in negotiations and similar tasks.
How has the legal world changed since COVID? How do you think it might change in the near future? Can you explain what you mean?
Well, I believe we are accomplishing significantly more work without requiring clients to physically visit the office. My telephone consultations have increased compared to the past. I anticipate this trend will extend to employees as well, with fewer needing to be present in the office. Currently, I have one such employee, and I expect their number to rise, especially if I aim to expand the office. I believe the future will necessitate a more employee-oriented approach to attract top talent. For instance, I offered a job with a schedule of four 10-hour workdays, which was very well received. I also had to secure medical insurance. Had you told me I would manage to provide medical insurance for everyone, I would have considered it improbable, yet here we are. Therefore, I think enhancing employee satisfaction will require significantly more effort than before to make the workplace an appealing environment. Indeed, that’s a positive development.
Based on your experience, how can attorneys effectively leverage social media to build their practice?
We engage extensively in producing YouTube commercials and posting on social media, alongside pay-per-click advertising, which has been quite successful. However, traditional radio advertising still yields the highest return on investment for us. I believe increasing our video content is the optimal strategy for maximizing our use of social media. In fact, I had a video shoot in March in Sundance. We will conduct an extensive photo shoot, complemented by videos addressing the most frequently asked questions. These videos will be uploaded to our website and various social media platforms, including Facebook, and will also be adapted into commercials. Hence, focusing more on video content is an area where I aim to enhance our efforts significantly. I am eager to see all the new content and explore the three different types as well.
Excellent. Here is the main question of our interview. What are your “5 Things You Need To Become A Top Lawyer In Your Specific Field of Law?”
Well, that’s a good question. I think you have to be curious, you have to have a thirst for knowledge, you have to have the motivation to be the expert in your field. I think we’ve achieved that. So, when someone asks, “What do you do in this leadership course at 70 years old?” I say, “The day I die is the day I’ll stop learning.” I think you must maintain a continuous drive to learn because things are always changing. As an example, back when I was just a small-town lawyer, I completed 15 hours of continuing legal education a year. Now, all the attorneys in my office, including the Enrolled Agent, undertake 50 to 100 hours or more annually, just to keep up with the IRS.
We recently hired a new attorney; she’s undergoing a two-week training period, after which she’ll start handling cases. In June, she’ll attend a four-day training session with the American Society of Tax Problem Solvers, essentially a boot camp for new attorneys in the tax resolution field. This training will be an ongoing process throughout the year for everyone. You need to have the drive; you need to enjoy what you do. Because dealing with the IRS can be stressful — their automated collection system, new staff who are often poorly trained and don’t know what they’re talking about half the time. So, you have to find a way to navigate that and achieve the best resolution. Sometimes, when we encounter someone who doesn’t understand their job, I tell them I have someone waiting for me and then hang up and call back until I reach someone competent.
I think another essential aspect is being business-oriented; you have to think like an entrepreneur. You could be the best attorney in the world, but if people don’t know you exist, they won’t come to you. We’ve done an excellent job of getting our name out there through radio, social media, newsletters, videos, books, and speeches across the country. But the first step is to perform well. The good news is, we perform — we have a 4.7 rating on Google and a 5 in St. Louis. We’re rated 4.8 on Google in Nashville. So, I do think you have to think like an entrepreneur because if you’re not making money, you won’t be able to help many people or employ many people.
We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch, and why? He or she might see this. :-)
Oh, that’s difficult. But perhaps Magic Johnson. Magic was my favorite basketball player of all time. I began watching him at a significant point in my life and just loved the way he played the game. I appreciated that it was all about winning for him, not himself. He made his teammates better. Another reason I want to talk to him is his success in the business world after retiring as a basketball player. He has such an infectious personality and has achieved a great deal both on and off the court. I’m sure there are other people I could think of if I gave it enough thought, but he’s someone I’ve admired for a long time.
This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success and good health!
About the Interviewer: Eric L. Pines is a nationally recognized federal employment lawyer, mediator, and attorney business coach. He represents federal employees and acts as in-house counsel for over fifty thousand federal employees through his work as a federal employee labor union representative. A formal federal employee himself, Mr. Pines began his federal employment law career as in-house counsel for AFGE Local 1923 which is in Social Security Administration’s headquarters and is the largest federal union local in the world. He presently serves as AFGE 1923’s Chief Counsel as well as in-house counsel for all FEMA bargaining unit employees and numerous Department of Defense and Veteran Affairs unions.
While he and his firm specialize in representing federal employees from all federal agencies and in reference to virtually all federal employee matters, his firm has placed special attention on representing Veteran Affairs doctors and nurses hired under the authority of Title. He and his firm have a particular passion in representing disabled federal employees with their requests for medical and religious reasonable accommodations when those accommodations are warranted under the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (ADA). He also represents them with their requests for Federal Employee Disability Retirement (OPM) when an accommodation would not be possible.
Mr. Pines has also served as a mediator for numerous federal agencies including serving a year as the Library of Congress’ in-house EEO Mediator. He has also served as an expert witness in federal court for federal employee matters. He has also worked as an EEO technical writer drafting hundreds of Final Agency Decisions for the federal sector.
Mr. Pines’ firm is headquartered in Houston, Texas and has offices in Baltimore, Maryland and Atlanta, Georgia. His first passion is his wife and five children. He plays classical and rock guitar and enjoys playing ice hockey, running, and biking. Please visit his websites at www.pinesfederal.com and www.toughinjurylawyers.com. He can also be reached at eric@pinesfederal.com.
