Top Lawyers: Sandra Swirski of Urban Swirski On The 5 Things You Need To Become A Top Lawyer In Your Specific Field of Law

An Interview With Chere Estrin

Negotiation Skills — An appreciation that the perfect is the enemy of the good. A good result in politics is when everyone walks away from the table with something, but not everything. Ideological purity may make for good TV, but not policy making.

The legal field is known to be extremely competitive. Lawyers are often smart, ambitious, and highly educated. That being said, what does it take to stand out and become a “Top Lawyer” in your specific field of law? In this interview series called “5 Things You Need To Become A Top Lawyer In Your Specific Field of Law”, we are talking to top lawyers who share what it takes to excel and stand out in your industry.

As a part of this interview series, I had the pleasure of interviewing Sandra Swirski.

Sandra Swirski is an award-winning advocate and seasoned lawyer who understands the business, economic, and societal risks associated with poorly informed public policy. Since 1989, she has helped draft and pass tax legislation and understands the intricacies associated with transfer of wealth, planned giving, and tax law. Her influence on philanthropic and planned giving policy makes her the top government affairs advisor for high-wealth philanthropists and global nonprofit institutions.

Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dig in, our readers would love to get to know you a bit more. What is the “backstory” that brought you to this particular career path in Law? Did you want to be an attorney “when you grew up”?

I never considered practicing law until college, and even then I wasn’t exactly sure I wanted to practice in a law firm. But I thought, and still very much believe, that the skills I learned in law school would teach me to be a more analytical and thoughtful decision-maker, and thus, a resourceful and excellent problem-solver.

Today, I work with Capitol Hill and K Street professionals, as well as philanthropists and crypto donors and wealth managers, to help shape the most effective planned giving and supportive tax policy that benefits individuals, businesses, and society at large. I’ve impacted every high-profile tax bill since 1989, and through my experience I understand the business, economic, and societal risks associated with poorly informed public policy.

Can you tell us a bit about the nature of your practice and what you focus on?

I work with private sector organizations to change laws and regulations to enact or clarify bright lines so clients can make better business plans. Sometimes that means working with lawmakers in Congress to craft exacting law changes. Other times that means working with regulators. Over the years, I’ve helped draft and pass our current tax laws which required understanding the nuances and details of the tax law. My current practice focuses on tax and economic issues, and I chair our firm’s Philanthropy Practice which involves advising clients on laws and regulations associated with transfers of wealth, planned giving, and digital assets. Over the next 20 years, about $70 trillion will be transferred to younger generations and this has caught the attention of Congress and the regulators. On behalf of my clients, I’m working closely with lawmakers to not discourage, but incentivize, philanthropy to increase charitable giving from 2% of GDP to 3%. And that includes gifts of digital assets like crypto.

You are a successful attorney. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? What unique qualities do you have that others may not? Can you please share a story or example for each? (Here is where you can add stories that bring your experience and connections to life.)

First, is that I knew I didn’t want to be everything to everybody. Meaning, I decided to specialize in one area of the law — tax — rather than be a generalist. That specialization set me apart when I was recruited for my first job in business. Mobil Corporation wanted a tax lawyer to head their government relations team given how important taxes were to their bottom line, which is true for most businesses.

Second, I’ve honed my skills at connecting the dots — between people and seemingly random events. By connecting the dots between people, I mean making introductions between clients, colleagues, and friends. My long-standing relationships with the people and establishments that shape public policy allow me to give my clients a seat at the table with lawmakers and other stakeholders. My name and face are known in DC, as well as in nonprofit and wealth management circles, as I have advised lawmakers in Congress, senior Treasury officials, foundation leaders, global philanthropists, and leading associations. Making introductions and deep connections just make sense to me because I’ve been the beneficiary and know first-hand how they can be shortcuts. I’ve gotten most of my job offers and clients because of people connecting the dots for me. This quality is important to me in my personal life as well. I’ve carefully tended to friendships, even all the way back to high school. And my life is infinitely richer because of those friends and our shared memories.

As for events, in DC we like to say that almost nothing happens by coincidence. Politics can be like chess where the end game is planned many moves ahead by uber strategists in government. Which means those that can spot these moves, or “coincidences,” can forecast the end game and have the best opportunity to position their clients to win.

Finally, I’m decisive. Lawyers are trained to anticipate and identify problems and to look at those problems from multiple perspectives. This is essential for good decision-making, but it can also be paralyzing. I’m very good at sizing up a problem, being situationally aware, identifying the next and best move and executing. I remember a few years back I took a call from a senior aide to a Senate committee chairman. We had been working together for weeks on specific language to be added into a bill for a coalition of clients. It was late in the evening and the aide wanted to know whether the language was sufficient. It wasn’t, and I had a few hours to decide whether we could live with the insufficient language or not. I went back to the aide in 30 minutes with a few Plan Bs the coalition could live with. Because we were quick, we were rewarded.

Do you think you have had luck in your success? Can you explain what you mean?

It’s been a combination of luck, hard work, and opportunity. I went to college and law school mostly on scholarships and grants. And I filled in the gaps with work study and some loans. Early in my career I benefitted from some really good people taking me under their wing and providing opportunities for me. All of this was luck and opportunity that I worked really hard to cultivate. And now I’m paying it forward, which feels really good.

Do you think where you went to school has any bearing on your success? How important is it for a lawyer to go to a top-tier school?

I went to law school in DC and but for that I would not have made the connections that afforded me the opportunity to work on Capitol Hill, which ultimately launched by career. From Capitol Hill I was hired by Mobil Corporation to head their Washington office as well as sit on their Global Public Policy Team. That experience gave me the confidence, and connections, to start my own government affairs/public affairs firm in Washington.

Based on the lessons you have learned from your experience, if you could go back in time and speak to your twenty-year-old self, what would you say? Would you do anything differently?

I would tell myself to take long breaks between jobs and disconnect. I never did this because I feared slowing my stride. I guess that’s called FOMO these days. I’ve watched with envy as others close to me took long breaks without missing a beat and started their first day at the new job more refreshed, creative, and open to possibilities.

This is not easy work. What is your primary motivation and drive behind the work that you do?

Over the course of my career, I’ve often thought of the quote by John Holmes — “There is no exercise better for the heart than reaching down and lifting people up.” In my line of work, I’m fortunate to see this play out on a regular basis. But more can be done, and I wake up every day working towards one goal — to increase charitable giving in this country from 2% of GDP to 3%. Imagine our world if that became a reality.

What are some of the most interesting or exciting projects you are working on now?

The key to driving charitable giving from 2% of GDP to 3% of GDP are younger generations. Over the next 20 or so years, about $70 trillion will be transferred to these younger people. Between that largesse and the wealth created by crypto assets that are already in the hands of younger generations could mean a windfall for philanthropy and charity. Yet, according to Fidelity Charitable, right now almost half of all crypto donors want to give but have trouble finding charities that accept crypto. I’m working to demystify crypto assets for charities and eventually connect them with crypto donors. And work with Congress so they don’t ruin any of this.

Where do you go from here? Where do you aim to be in the next chapter of your career?

As I demystify crypto for charities, I want to work with Congress to make sure they don’t write rules or regulations that make it difficult, or impossible, for charities to benefit from crypto. The charitable sector is often the forgotten sector in Washington because nonprofit organizations aren’t viewed as a direct part of the economy. As Congress and regulators think through how to regulate and provide oversight of crypto generally, it is paramount that the charitable sector stay vigilant, closely monitoring and weighing in to avoid losing or disadvantaging crypto assets as a revenue stream for their organizations. Congress should carefully consider the consequences of eliminating or disadvantaging classes of assets donated to benefit communities around the country and the world.

Ok, fantastic. Let’s now shift to discussing some advice for aspiring lawyers. Do you work remotely? Onsite? Or Hybrid? What do you think will be the future of how law offices operate? What do you prefer? Can you please explain what you mean?

My colleagues and I work a hybrid which I think is how professionals will prefer to work here on out. I like a hybrid work setting because it allows for more balance between professional and personal lives. Balance is the key to a rewarding career.

How has the legal world changed since COVID? How do you think it might change in the near future? Can you explain what you mean?

Lawyers used to spend days running from meeting to meeting and using their offices as a respite. I’m much more efficient these days because of virtual meetings, but even when they’re not scheduled back-to-back and I do have short breaks between online time, my inclination is to wade through emails. Unplugging from your desk and taking a mental break is refreshing your brain and body and has led to breakthrough creativity for me and my team. Before COVID, I challenged my team to walk, if possible, to every meeting. That time, before and after allows for mental preparation — not to mention fresh air can get those mental juices and blood flowing. As for my practice, I used to spend most of my days with people — clients, colleagues, and policymakers. That’s obviously changed. For younger professionals in my field that has meant pausing on building professional relationships and contacts. That will reverse once Congress and the Administration resumes regular in-person meetings. But there is plenty of frustration that two years have been lost building those important connections.

We often hear about the importance of networking and getting referrals. Is this still true today? Has the nature of networking changed or has its importance changed? Can you explain what you mean?

Someone once said that if you’re having lunch alone at your desk you’re falling behind. There is some truth to that. Being visible, whether in person or on social media channels, is important to maintain and broaden your audience, whoever they may be. There’s no substitute for meeting face-to-face to build authentic and personal relationships. And while that was virtually impossible these last two years, visibility on social media channels became an adequate substitute.

Based on your experience, how can attorneys effectively leverage social media to build their practice?

I believe my social media advisors when they tell me that it’s not good enough to do it, you must communicate that you’re doing it. And that means on social media, too. LinkedIn is a great tool to highlight, promote, comment on issues you care about. I’m currently doing a deep dive into cryptocurrency and how it might become a sustainable revenue stream for philanthropy. More than 300 million people own crypto and because of new rules and tools that Congress gave the IRS last fall, crypto owners that are sitting on a pile of profits ought to consider using crypto for their philanthropy rather than other assets. Sounds straightforward, but crypto is a new frontier and charities and lawmakers are sure how they feel about crypto just yet. I’ve found LinkedIn to be an effective tool for education and socialization around crypto and other digital assets because of it’s viewed as a more serious platform to peruse thoughtful comments, discussions, and articles by engaged and curious audiences.

Excellent. Here is the main question of our interview. What are your “5 Things You Need To Become A Top Lawyer In Your Specific Field of Law?” Please share a story or an example for each.

Influence — I’ve built influence by sharing my knowledge and network with others. The more you share, the more you’re sought out.

Flexibility — When working with lawmakers to change policy, you’re at their whim and on their schedule. So having a flexible mindset so you can roll with the punches is essential.

Political Acumen — Let’s face it, I’m working on policy in a political environment so it’s critical that I appreciate that the right policy solution might not work if the politics don’t.

Negotiation Skills — An appreciation that the perfect is the enemy of the good. A good result in politics is when everyone walks away from the table with something, but not everything. Ideological purity may make for good TV, but not policy making.

Patience — Your career is a marathon, not a sprint.

We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch, and why? He or she might see this. :-)

I’d love to break bread with Peggy Noonan. She’s a regular columnist for the Wall Street Journal and a special guest on an occasional Sunday morning news show about politics and the big issues of the day. She makes me smarter and expands my worldview in every column. And she’s funny and warm too. I bet she makes a good neighbor and has fabulous cocktail parties.

This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for the time you spent with this. We wish you continued success and good health!