John Michael Greer an American Druid on Americans Individualism, Societal Collapse, and the Values of the Frontier Period

Stanislas Berteloot
Back in America
Published in
24 min readAug 28, 2020


John Michael Greer
John Michael Greer

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Hello, john,

John Michael Greer 0:13
When the pandemic is over, everyone will say, Oh, isn’t it nice to be back to normal, but it’s not quite normal and it never will be.

You also have an older set of American values that date back to the frontier period. You have the attitudes that were much more common before we became a wealthy society, we are now attitudes that focus on hard work and individualism not as a way to amass vast amount of wealth but amount, to the best ways to get by with minimal interference, either to or from other people. And I find that speaking to Americans on that basis of that colonial that frontier set of values communicates very well for them.

Stanislas Berteloot HOST 1:26
I’m Stan Berteloot, and this is back in America. Today I’m speaking with John Michael Greer, or JMG, as he likes to be called, a widely respected author and blogger in the field of nature, spirituality and the future of industrial society is the author of more than 50 books and of his blog Ecosophia, he lives in Rhode Island with his wife, Sarah. John, a look at your Wikipedia page made me realize that you’re a pretty complex person. The most striking aspect of your life is probably that you are Druid. And being French, and a reader of Asterix discovering that Druids, made their way from Europe to the US was a surprise and I want to learn more about it. The reason for my reaching out to you, however, John, is that you are one of the leading minds in the US behind the concept of Societal collapse. You started blogging on this topic back in 2006. In 2016, you wrote Dark Age America, climate change, Cultural Collapse, and the Hard Future Ahead. Since then, you published about eight books and countless articles on collapse, collapse mean that fossil fuel-based civilization cannot sustain itself and will fail as our world is going through an unprecedented pandemic and is bracing itself for what might So be an unprecedented recession. I am delighted to have the chance to get your views on this situation. Welcome to Back in America. John.

John Michael Greer 3:09
Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be on.

Stanislas Berteloot 3:11
Do you want to add anything to this introduction?

John Michael Greer 3:14
I’m not in particular, it seems, it seems relatively accurate. I mean, better than many podcasters do so you’re, you’re kind of ahead of the curve.

Stanislas Berteloot 3:23
Thank you for saying that. So let me start. Why druidism or I’m not sure how you call the religion or the philosophy of the dreads.

John Michael Greer 3:33
If you ask a question to three Druids, you will get at least five answers. But it’s either druidism or it’s Druidry. I prefer Druidry. Because it’s less of an ism less than ideology, more of a craft like carpentry or pottery. But you can use either label. You mentioned you mentioned in the intro that it’s rather surprising you to find that the druids had somehow made their way across the Atlantic. In fact, the first known Druid organization in the United States. This is Citing ancient Druids was founded in 1798, in upstate New York, and so there’s been a druid presence here for a long time. Basically, there is that there’s a certain a certain number of people who naturally find that they come closest to the spiritual realm through nature. And Druidry is one of the frameworks one of the ways of approaching that kind of nature-based spirituality. It’s certainly one that appealed to me as soon as I encountered it. And, you know, one thing led to another. Okay,

Stanislas Berteloot 4:31
good. Well, I’m sure we’re going to touch back on the spirit or aspect of things, but in order maybe for listeners to better understand who you are as a person, take me back to what it was like to be a 10-year-old John Michael Greer. Where were you living? What was your surrounding?

Unknown Speaker 4:51
OK, age of 10. I was living in this in the suburbs, south of Seattle, in an area Let’s see that was that was actually the year we moved from. From one Seattle suburb to a different Seattle separate. They’re basically interchangeable. typical American suburbia of the beginning of the 1970s. Before the before the the gas that the gasoline price shock before the first oil crisis, think two large cars parked in every in everybody’s driveway, split level homes, lots of consumer stuff running around all over the place. It was incredibly dull. One of the things about suburbia that the the salesman of real estate projects never get around to mentioning is that it has all the disadvantages of urban life and a rural life neither of the advantages of either. So, outsider I grew up in a typical, boring American suburban life being given the extremely low quality education that American public schools provide. I’m sure you’re aware of that. An American high school graduates typically has less knowledge than probably some, you know, child in a French school who is in like, third or fourth grade. So, one of the reasons that I ended up getting into various esoteric and abstruse topics such as druidry, such as the study of collapse was simply that the, the world that was being presented to me by the media, by my teachers, by my parents, but the entire surrounding society was so one dimensional and so obviously fake, that it inspired a certain passion for looking past the obvious answers and saying, okay, what’s actually going on here?

Stanislas Berteloot 6:42
What were your parents doing at the time?

John Michael Greer 6:45
Both my parents are schoolteachers. Okay.

Stanislas Berteloot 6:47
All right. So you were living in an intelectual household?

John Michael Greer 6:51
Well, to a certain extent, you have to remember I don’t know whether this is true in Europe at all. I’m not I haven’t lived in Europe, but in America. schoolteachers are right at the very bottom of the middle class. It was at that time, certainly the typical career. When you have a family, a working class family, one of the kids has some intellectual talents, they go off to college, they end up with a teaching certificate, a teaching degree, and they go to work in the public schools. Um, and so, both, both of my parents were well educated by the by American standards. Both of them had intellectual interests, they read things and so on, but I did not get a lot of my intellectual. You know, a lot of my intellectual grounding did not come from it. Most of it came from the public library. The Internet wasn’t around yet.

Stanislas Berteloot 7:47
What keeps you busy, and what keeps you or what makes you happy?

John Michael Greer 7:53
What keeps you busy is largely writing on I am a self employed author, and I also simply Love to write. And so I write a lot. I write blog posts, I write novels. I write various kinds of nonfiction works. I write astrological forecasts. I mean, I’m involved. I do I write a lot of things. And so that is much of what keeps me busy. I am somewhat solitary by nature. I don’t do a lot of socializing this kind of stuff. I’m not the kind of person who’s out the I let’s just say I was not greatly inconvenienced by the shutdown that we’re that we have here in the US just now with the Coronavirus thing. So So yes, so there’s what there’s what keeps me busy. What makes me happy really is I enjoy my work. I love to write, I love to communicate. I I very much enjoy interacting with nature preferably you know without too many other human beings in the way and so generally my my life My life is pretty much what I wanted to be so oh

Stanislas Berteloot 8:53
do spirituality and ecology come together for you?

John Michael Greer 8:58
Well, with You ask us that you’re asking that of a druid, of course. And so one of the ways that that’s very much the case is that I see I experience spiritual realities most closely through the phenomena of nature. And so ecology fills much the same role in my thought that say, the theology of Thomas Aquinas would fill in the thought of devout Roman Catholic. Simply The, the basic structure of the structures of nature are the structures of spirit from a druid point of view. And so when I was back when I was in university, I did took take quite a number of classes on ecology on environmental sciences. And all of those have really helped shape my view of what the spiritual world is like and how we interact with it. It’s I don’t think it’ll be going too far to say that. One of the great needs we have right now is for an understanding of spiritual ecology, understanding of how we relate to The transcendent worlds of the spiritual world as an ecological relationship is something that the frames or lives the way that that physical ecology does.

Stanislas Berteloot 10:09
And the hermetics or Alchemist said that what is above is the same as what is down

John Michael Greer 10:18
that yes that which is above is is that which is below and that which is below is that which is above to perform the miracles. The one thing yes, I do have the, the Emerald tablet by heart. As I said, I got I got very bored as a child and got into a lot of weird things. Yeah.

Stanislas Berteloot 10:36
Were you raised a Protestant?

John Michael Greer 10:40
I was raised absolutely nothing at all. Back when I was a kid, Pacific Northwest was the least church going part of the United States. Nobody’s New England. But But yeah, I mean, there was like one family on our block that which church regular and everyone thought that we’re kind of weird. Yeah, no, no. So So yeah. So I grew up. I grew up with very little Contact with with mainstream religion and when I did end up having contact with it I was I was baffled It makes no sense to me

Stanislas Berteloot 11:08
how come?

John Michael Greer 11:10
we I hope I will not give offense either to you or any of my neighbors or any of our listeners to mention that I find the basic claims made by Christianity about say how the world came into being and the the history of the world from creation 4004 bc until the present and the events around the life of Jesus of Nazareth and so completely implausible. I don’t think the world was created in seven days. I don’t think a floods you know, flooded the entire world. You know, the sort of Mount Everest was underwater. I don’t believe that a man rose from the dead.

Stanislas Berteloot 11:50
Yeah, why don’t you think we can see that as a as a problem?

John Michael Greer 11:55
Of course, but if you see that as a parable than other parables You know, then it’s just a parable. And other parables are going to are will be as at least as interesting inspiring and so on. And that was, I mean, if you want parallels there are lots of parables around and I prefer the pair of rebels that are taught by nature. Unfortunately, a lot of certainly a lot of American Protestant Christians do not believe that it’s a parable they are convinced that not only did Jesus rise from the dead if a film crew had been there the whole thing so now and you know, I I appreciate I appreciate their faith. I you know, there’s a certain there’s certain grand you’re believing something that seems so important, implausible, but I can’t make I cannot make myself believe that that happened. And since if that didn’t happen, then you know, it’s just a parable. There are other parables go on.

Stanislas Berteloot 12:51
Okay. I wanted to switch to the elephant in the room. As the covid 19 pandemic, change anything thing about your world vision

John Michael Greer 13:04
it’s actually, I was actually rather pleased to watch the response to it at least here in this country. Of course, there’s been a certain amount of stupidity a certain number of people running around like chickens with their heads cut off it. That’s, that’s basic human normal. There’s a little rhyme that when I frenzy select a chant, when in danger, when in doubt, run in circles scream and shout, and you have a certain amount of that. But by and large, an enormous number of people have dealt with this, this problem much more calmly, much more effectively than I ever expected. And it has given me a lot of people a chance to stop and go oh, so there’s a point to having a little extra food and then toilet tissue for example stashed away. There’s a point to making some preparations, the world will not necessarily behave itself we can have things go wrong, this kind of scale. And so I think it’s a real wake up call. I have certainly seen a lot of people on the one hand people who were going oh come on nothing like that can happen you know there There can’t be an actual decline and actual collapse who are going coops I was wrong. And of course those those people who have been who’ve been preparing all along for things like that are going okay Now do you understand and getting a fairly good response so I think all in all, it will turn out to be obviously the the people who die of it or become very healthy. It’s very unfortunate, but you know, people die of a lot of things. We all die of something and for society as a whole. I think here in the US at least it seems to be having a very salutary effect.

Stanislas Berteloot 14:39
In the US you’ve got the survivalist and you’ve got people that are more inclined to look at, you know, the next stage as being resilience and and building resilient community. Which side do you see yourself in?

John Michael Greer 14:59

Um, so basically on the one hand, you have the survivalists who are convinced that the survival, I tend to think of them as the ones whose idea of preparing involves lots of firearms and holding up in the woods and blazing away at advancing enemies. It’s you know, it’s basically it’s a video game come to life, it’s playing in their mind. And a lot of the people in the resilient end things they have this whole idea of building communities, typically from scratch, or taking individual towns and so on and getting everyone to follow their lead. That’s not happening. I don’t know if you’re at all familiar with the the whole transition towns movement, this was such a big thing. A decade ago, it’s dead. It’s been dead in the water here for for several years because the transition tell people can all get all fired up and excited and interesting, but nobody else cares. And so their plan of trying to get entire communities to restructure themselves along a resilient fashion is gone. Nowhere, my approach is kind of in the middle. And it’s much more individually based. My approach is that the thing that will help most as we’re seeing right now, is that if individuals are personally resilient, personally prepared, they’ve stashed some stuff, they’ve developed some skills. They know what we’re facing, they can provide an anchor of stability and sanity in a difficult time. And as we’re seeing right now, a lot of people who were going, Oh, come on that’s completely unnecessary are changing their mind in a hurry. And if they know people who who have done some preparations, who have, who have made some plans, who have who have basically shaped their future, knowing that we cannot count on the endless onward and upward fantasies of modern media. They’re going okay, now, how do you do that? So it becomes a matter of working from working from the ground up working, not with whole community. Since certainly not looking to hold yourself up in a cabin in the woods, but simply being in your community, acting in a constructive and sane fashion, making the preparations letting people know, helping them change to more resilient lifestyles as the need arises. Since I argue we are not facing a sudden collapse, we are facing a long dissent, we are facing a long, ragged decline that will unfold over several centuries. That individually based approach strikes me as far and away the most useful.

Stanislas Berteloot 17:34
So I hear you say individual based approach and I also hear you say that you need to help people switch, you know, their mindset and the skill to become more resilient. So, would you agree with me that you cannot survive alone, that you need a group of people to be around you to be with you. You need trust or

John Michael Greer 18:00
Well, it depends. It depends. It depends again on what we’re what we’re talking about. If you’re thinking in terms of a sudden collapse situation, and so many people do they think, you know, the lights will go off the food will the stores will run out of food. And we’re all plunged into chaos. And, you know, that’s what people are thinking of when they’re thinking about, well, we need a group, we’ve got to gather people around. I don’t see that happening. What I see is things like we’re going through right now, where it gets bad for all men to get somewhat better. There’s this kind of crisis that is that kind of crisis, this place gets hit, that place over there gets it, but it’s a long, ragged process. You don’t necessarily need a group, because we all interact with people all the time. Right? Well, most of us do. I mean, there are some hermits but most of us are constantly interacting with people we know people, we talk to people, we we, you know, say hi to our neighbors. And those are the informal connections that really matter. Because the way that communities will become resilient is not because of A handful of intellectual activists decide to make them resilient, it’s going to happen because individual people and families, neighborhoods simply notice that this works and that doesn’t know that, you know, the, the slightly slightly kooky neighbor who everyone thought was a little strange for always having, you know, a month supply of food is doing just fine even though the stores are out of this, this, this and this, and maybe we should do some of that. And now what was that recipe for baking bread again, it’s that kind of that kind of evolutionary process not in not imposed from without, but evolved from within the to my mind is, is what we need for the long descent. Mm hmm.

Stanislas Berteloot 19:42
as a, as a European and as a French I find it very interesting. Your vision of the future. And the word that strike me was ‘independent’, you know, individual and, and to me, those are American value right to be independent. Get to cherished freedom to cherish your private property. And, you know, I had a hard time putting that in perspective with the time to come, you know that even that slow collapse which in Europe mean that people will need to be more resilient with smaller community helping each other. And so you know, I’m sure you are familiar with the all the movement around what is called a font or now in French, which is like clubs in English, which you know, the view is radically different, right.

Unknown Speaker 20:36
Can you speak about that? Yeah.

John Michael Greer 20:38
I have not really followed French movement that much, mostly because you’re not my country. And conditions are very different. Europe is not North America. One of the this is one of the things that both Europeans and North Americans sometimes forget. In the United States, you know, we’re going to be dealing with independence. And with that, sort of independent minded thinks, because that’s hardwired into our culture, that everybody, basically everybody clings to that and trying to convince people to give it up is not going to get anywhere. So if that’s that’s what we have to work with, obviously, in many European countries, you have a more a more communal attitudes you have a more a more locally based neighborhood based kind of approach to society. Things are there are those connections that are much more closer there are more more bonds between people in specific areas and so on. And so you’ve got that to work with. And that’s what you should be working with you with what you have. To some extent, there’s there’s a continuum here on on this continent, because here you know, here in the East, up against the Atlantic Ocean, is the neighborhoods are more of there’s there’s much more of a neighborhood spirits people work together to a greater extent than elsewhere in America go out west and is every man for himself. for himself. And so and so here again, one of the basic principles here is that there is no one solution. There’s no one way to deal with kind of complex decline we’re facin g. And so it’s very much a matter where localization also needs to include localizing, how we how we go about preparing and how we go about dealing

Stanislas Berteloot 22:21
back to what we are experiencing at the moment with a pandemic, looking around me, I feel that people might not be coming to term with the recession looming, as well talking about opening the economy again, going back to normal, I think that we are maybe avoiding the most important question which is, you know, how we ended up where we are today. What do you think?

John Michael Greer 22:47
Oh, this is this is a huge amount of wisdom customer graveyard going on a huge amount of people blustering and saying things not because they know their true origin because they believe them because they want to be true. I don’t know if that will ever quickly get back to quote normal unquote.


one of the one of the one of the effects of the pandemic is that the various arguments being made against open borders against the free flow of people across international borders. And so they’ll set up a great deal of additional strength and support, at least here in the United States. And I suspect in a number of other countries as well, the fact that this pandemic was able to spread so quickly, was in large part because we know our borders are the borders of nations these days very permeable. And so equally, the fact that traders from the disruptions in China proceeded to have an economic knock on effect around the planet that has given a lot of encouragement to people who wants to see less of a global economy and more economic relocalization. Also, there’s just some shifts in consciousness, I think, some shifts and ideas and thoughts and we’ll see how that plays out. But I think One of the things we’ll want to get used to as the long descent continues, is crises, and then back to normal, but not quite. So for example, there will be I mean, the stock market stock markets plunge worldwide. So they climb back up somewhat. There will be enterprises that were not really economically viable at all. And they will, some of those will go and never come back. And other things that have more economic viability will probably get a larger share of net investment money. So you’ll have these sort of shock mediated transformations. And everyone will say, Oh, isn’t it you know, when when the when the pandemic is over? Everyone was saying, Oh, isn’t it nice to be back to normal, but it’s not quite normal and it never will be? there will be changes, there will be shifts. And will there be a long lasting recession coming out of this? I don’t know. I know that several countries in the Certainly mine among them are running, running the electronic equivalent of printing presses day and night, turning up free money to flood the economy with and we’ll get to see whether that works or not. It’s an interesting experiment.

Unknown Speaker 25:16
Do you see it as a rehersal for the things to come

John Michael Greer 25:19
home? Yeah, basically, or just or if you will. So it’s the second round. We here in the US Of course, we had quite the shock when the real estate market collapsed in 2008 2009. There was a lot of economic trouble and I know people who were in the up to their eyeballs speculating in real estate who went bankrupt, they lost their homes, they lost all kinds of stuff. Now we have another shock. Another 510 years down the line that will doubtless be yet another one. And each one changes things and each one changes things that will never be the same.

Stanislas Berteloot 25:56
Interesting, are you a proponent of degrowth?

John Michael Greer 26:01
If we could get it Yes, I think the problem is that the idea of growth is so hard wired into the the economic thought of our time. And that’s it’s absurd. But, you know, I think it was kind of both of us to say the only people who believe in perpetual growth on a finite planet are madmen and economists. And unfortunately, we have too many votes in positions of power these days. But, in fact, we need economic contraction, there’s a lot of economic activity that is not productive, have anything good, anything useful, and that that just serves to turn money and you know, line people’s pockets. So, there will be contraction, I doubt any of it will be planned. I doubt much of it will be not admitted and there will be all kinds of gimmickry come up with to pretend that the economy is expanding. Well, it is contract To get a healthy fashion, but we’ll see how that works out.

Stanislas Berteloot 27:03
Hard work, individualism, freedom, private property capitalism, production and consumption as being the engine of growth. I mean, all that seems to be in total opposition, with a more sustainable society or preparing to smoother, long descent, as you as you call it

John Michael Greer 27:27
it, it’s actually quite easy. Because the values that you’ve mentioned actually break apart very nicely into two groups. There’s what we can call consumer values, the idea of production, consumption, growth, the wallowing in absurd extravagance, all that kind of stuff. But you also have an older set of American values that date back to to the frontier period, where that means that you have things like the old use it up, wear it out, make it do Without you have the the attitudes that were much more common before we became the wealthiest of the wealthy society, we are now attitudes that focus on hard work and individualism not as a way to amass estimates of wealth, but the best ways to get by, without with minimal interference, either to or from other people. And I find that speaking to Americans on that basis of that second that that that colonial that frontier set of values communicates very well for them. It also helps that the people who are predicting endless growth and so on are so constantly wrong. I mean, there’s there’s a running joke these days, what do you what do you call an economist who opens his mouth? And the answer is, of course wrong. And so, it’s true enough these days that I have, I mean, I started out just just blogging and then posting a weekly or weekly blog post on various issues, many of them relating to decline. And getting just a few few comments here, mostly very dismissive. But as time went on, and predictions based on the reality of ongoing declines proved true, and predictions based on the claim of amples, perpetual progress proof. More and more people are listening, right? And if you can say, you know, yes, it’s gonna be rough, you’re gonna need to make some changes in your lifestyle, we can get through this, that that also appeals to Americans. Because one of the things one of the things that I think has gotten misplaced, historically, and it’s, you know, in the last, probably 50 years or so, most of the people who came here from other parts of the world not not all, of course, there were slaves, for example, but most of the people who came here came here because they were willing to take risks. Right? Most of the people who came here came here but they left their homes behind the left everything they knew. They claim to port a boat and cross the cross the ocean in order to make a new life for themselves in a place that had never been, that takes a certain amount of guts and appealing to that spirit appealing to that. Okay, you know, here’s the challenge. Can you rise to this challenge? That’s something that actually works very well to communicate to Americans.

Stanislas Berteloot 30:24
Now I see that

so tell me what we did this country look like in five years from now.

John Michael Greer 30:31
Five years from now, it will look superficially very similar. Um, you’ll see the same houses you’ll see the same the same buildings, you’ll see probably fewer retail chains. We were way past big retail. You will see fewer chains generally as things start to break apart into more and more local economies. You will see signs of in certain ways, less, less abundance, less obvious wealth, love, much less affluence. This kind of change that we’ve already seen where, instead of, you know, older teenagers, instead of drooling over automobiles, they’re riding bicycles now, behaving just as stupidly, of course, but that that’s because they’re teenagers, but they’re being stupid on bikes rather than being stupid and cars. And so various little subtle shifts like that. I expect those to continue over the next five years.

Stanislas Berteloot 31:31
You’ve not been talking about the climate.

John Michael Greer 31:37
The climate is that the climate is a complex situation. It’s much more complex than the various linear claims have been being made, but the media we’re definitely seeing climate change. I’ve seen it in my own life in several places where I lived. We have had, we had three very mild winters here for example, but The climate is complex. And it’s not a linear flight to imminent collapse. Among other things, one of the basic lessons of ecology is that any environmental change, the ecosystem will seek to balance it out. And so look some time into the into the, the rate at which additional carbon dioxide in the air has been causing explosive growth of biomass of plant matter, especially in places like Africa. It’s really quite striking. So climate is changing. That doesn’t mean we’re heading for over a cliff much though, you know, some activists and some politicians would like to claim we are

Stanislas Berteloot 32:43
okay, okay.

We are reaching the end of this interview and as I like to do with Back in America, and that’s going to be easy because we already touched on that, but what is America to you?

John Michael Greer 33:02
America, to me is a story.

It’s not actually a place that there’s there’s a place that more or less, more or less corresponds to it. But America as a story, it’s almost a myth. It’s It’s, it’s, it’s certainly a legend. It’s a story that people tell themselves. It’s a, a way of looking at the world that may not actually have that much to do with, with life on the ground, but it inspired a lot of people. And for good and for America is a story. And it’s a story that can always be retold in different ways and that’s one of the things that makes it interesting to me.

Stanislas Berteloot 33:41
Do you have any books or movie that you would recommend to our listeners?

John Michael Greer 33:47
Well, all my books they should all all of our listeners should run out and buy all of my books.

Stanislas Berteloot 33:54

John Michael Greer 33:57
Movies, I can’t movies. I can’t help you with I am not much into Visual Media I don’t I don’t know, I haven’t done a TV in my adult life. I don’t do movies and things like that. They just they don’t interest me greatly. But the one the one other advice other than buying all my books, but one of the pieces I said, encourage our listeners to do is go buy a book by somebody by somebody who’s dead. Somebody who’s never heard of before. Too many people keep their minds narrowly focused in what’s currently being talked about what’s currently being fought, and it’s a prison. There’s a wider world out there go Pete, something like that people. And I think

Stanislas Berteloot 34:34
that’s what you’re doing at the moment. I tried to translating. What is it a 17th century Latin book?

Unknown Speaker 34:43
Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, this one one of one of my I do Latin translations with some people do crosswords. It’s a bad habit. I know. But yeah, there was that there was a sweet linguist historian rosicrucian occultist general odd type name Johan is Boris And he was active in the in the first half of the 17th century. And he wrote a book called aluna. revived, which is a, a volume on the philosophy and secrets of the runes. And this is like the runes as understood by somebody in 1632. It has never been translated into English. Actually, I don’t think it’s ever been taken out of Latin. And it is. There’s a lot of people of course in the United States, among other places who are very interested in the runes these

Stanislas Berteloot 35:31
days. What are the runes? Sorry?

Unknown Speaker 35:34
Oh, there Oh, sorry. The runes are, that’s the old Northern European Norse, Swedish Germanic alphabet. We’re

John Michael Greer 35:43
just kind of straight lines straight lines.

gyro tokens. dwarf letters are based on the runes, probably more people know about those. Okay,

Stanislas Berteloot 35:53
well, this is very nice, right?

John Michael Greer 35:56
Very much so, and I have a nice publisher lined up for it. Excellent. The thing is, most of what I do is nice. I’m kind of I’m kind of an eccentric, and I’m good with it. And I work well on the fringes and it’s just a matter of finding, you know, finding other people who are sufficiently interested in this sort that Peter bit of fringe activity, that they’ll

Stanislas Berteloot 36:17
buy my book. Okay, well, John, Michael Greer thank you so much for making yourself available for back in America today.

John Michael Greer 36:25
Thank you. I enjoyed being on

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Stanislas Berteloot
Back in America

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