Steve Martin on Persuasion and Influence in Business and Policy: A UCL BIS Seminar
Persuasion and influence form two of the central tenets of Behavioural Science. On the 18th February 2021, the UCL BIS, in collaboration with LSE BPS, was fortunate to host Steve Martin, one of the biggest leaders in the behavioural science of persuasion, discussing the application of behavioural insight in business and policy.
The CEO of Influence At Work, a leading global Behavioural Science consultancy, and Chair of the Global Association of Applied Behavioural Scientists (GAABS), Steve is uniquely positioned to provide insight from the front lines of behavioural science today. He’s previously shared his insight in his roles as Faculty Director of the Behavioural Science Exec. Ed Program at Columbia University’s Graduate School of Business, and as a guest lecturer on MBA and Exec. Ed programmes at the London School of Economics, the London Business School and Harvard. Steve is also Steve is a Royal Society nominated author in the field of influence and persuasion science who together with Robert Cialdini and Noah Goldstein co-authored ‘Yes! 50 Secrets from the Science of Persuasion’ the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Business Week bestseller which has now sold over one million copies. We were honoured to host such a distinguished voice, in the field of Behavioural Science, and glad to provide the opportunity for UCL students to hear from and discuss with Steve.
The session was structured as an interview, starting with prepared questions for Steve, before opening it up to the audience. Below are some of the key highlights, from both parts of the event:
How did you first become interested in persuasion?
Steve shares that, like many, he’d started off in the corporate world. Having climbed the ladder to a position where he was responsible for marketing and sales, it struck him that a lot of it was only based on intuition and experience. Over concern for this process, he began looking into Behavioural Science, reading Dr Robert Cialdini’s work, and eventually reaching out to him. Steve describes the fortuitous timing of their meeting, as Dr Cialdini had been contemplating taking his work out of the lab at that time, around 1999. Eventually, he left the corporate world behind, to join Dr Cialdini. To put simply, he says his interest grew from curiosity of how to influence people, and finding someone who’d done a lot of work in this area of growing interest.
Why should businesses use psychology?
A business’ ability to deliver whatever they seek to deliver is based on a person or a group of people crucial to its success, explains Steve. “A lot of the issues that we’re dealing with are, at their heart, people issues”. Regardless of commercial and policy problems, Steve emphasizes the need to understand human behaviour and how to influence it in responsible, sustainable and ethical ways.
Along with Dr Robert Cialdini and Dr Noah Goldstein, you co-authored the book Yes! 50 secrets from the science of persuasion. What are some practical persuasion techniques from your book?
Steve first expresses that you should not just be reliant on your own powers to influence and persuade. Employ other’s influence as well and seek testimonials. Particularly testimonials from social groups that are comparable to the person/people you’re trying to influence. Another interesting effect is the principle of consistency and commitment. People are inclined to be consistent with the things they commit to. A tip for interviews is to start by ask the person interviewing you a question. “What was it about my application that made you invite me?”. Simply, you ask the interviewer to remind themselves why they chose you, and confirm this positive response face to face, as a commitment of their opinion of you. Steve ends with one of his favourites, among such techniques, Ordering Effects. In a line of more than 3–4 candidates, those who are assessed first are at a disadvantage. With no prior comparison, they are compared to an imagined ideal candidate, while becoming the benchmark for following candidates. Steve sincerely advises avoiding going first, in such contexts.
Another of your books is Messengers: Who we listen to, who we don’t and why? What made you shift your focus to the messengers, in social influence?
As the amount of persuasive messaging people are exposed to on a daily basis has increased rapidly over the years, Steve states that paying attention to everything is no longer possible. As a short cut, the focus shifted to who was communicating the message, over the message itself. He says “the messenger has become the message”, and the book sprang from that thought process, to try to understand this phenomenon.
In your book, you describe Hard vs Soft messengers? What distinguishes them from each other, and how can be become better messengers ourselves?
Hard messengers are those who hold some degree of status over their audience, be it power, leadership, attractiveness, fame, etc. Soft messengers, meanwhile, are those who communicate through connecting with their audience, through traits such as warmth and compassion. Steve expresses that becoming this type of messenger is something we can best develop in ourselves, by working on qualities like trustworthiness. Some traits, such as dominance, common in Hard messengers, are fairly innate, and difficult to develop significantly. In his suggestion of seeking to be a Soft messenger, Steve advises that building relationships with those willing to hear your ideas, especially when you are starting out somewhere, can be very important. People listen to how you say things, more than what you say, and forming a connection can be key to getting your message across.
The inevitable question, how do you feel Covid-19 is affecting Behavioural Science and its future?
Steve admits that, as was the case with most people, March 2020 was quite worrying. His company, Influence at Work, had some very exciting projects lined up for the year, which fell apart when Covid-19 began to spread, and dramatic precautions had been taken. However, with the new-found time on their hands, they did two things. Firstly, decide not to furlough anyone, and use this time to catch up on the most current research in Behavioural Science. Secondly, they contacted people they worked with, and asked if they could provide their insight to help weather the storm. Once people began getting used to living in this new world, they found the company actually began to get very busy, with increasing demand for their guidance, continuing well into 2021. Steve expresses that if they’re “a case study for where behavioural sciences are going, and the future of behavioural science, [his] insight is that it looks rosy”.
Following the interview, the floor was opened for some audience questions, some of which are summarised below:
What do you think of the notion that there has been little incentive for longitudinal research in influence and persuasion, and that we need more information on long term effects such as desensitization?
In the corporate world, short term goals form the most fuel behind Behavioural Science efforts, as people want immediate effects. It’s the nature of the work. However, Steve also speaks of a shift. Not a significant one yet, but conversations at the executive level are starting to focus on long term outlooks. The next generation of Behavioural Scientists are certainly going to be challenged to generate insight focused on short and long term effects.
I wondered what you think the implications are of the replication crisis, for the role social psychology places in policy making, given the results of much psychological research can’t be replicated? And how can we move forward from this?
Steve expresses the idea that there may always be a replication crisis in Behavioural Science. Context is always a significant factor, and it will always be somewhat different between experiments. Especially since experimentation is being taken out of the lab, and into the field. This shift is good, and makes the field applied and relevant, but it adds to the replication crisis. Steve says that we may just need to be comfortable with the fact “we’re not we’re not doing physics, we’re doing psychology”. We may need to understand our limitations within this more imprecise science, and seek to do our best within the constraints of looking at something as complex and unpredictable as behaviour.
Do you have one final piece of advice, for the next generation of Behavioural Scientists?
Steve expresses that those starting out in this field should “stay true to your science”, and have confidence in what you’ve learned. Be challenging, but in a kind and considerate way. It will be tougher for this new generation, especially with this growing dual focus on the short and long term effects, but Steve emphasizes enjoying it all at the same time. He ends with the advice to engage every opportunity we can, as he’s looking to us, the next generation of Behavioural Scientists, to take on the baton
We thank Steve Martin, for his time and his insight, which is sure to be invaluable to the students from UCL and LSE that were fortunate enough to attend. Stay tuned for more exciting events from the UCL Behavioural Innovations Team!
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