The Radical Inclusion of All Genders and Sexualities
Current debates about the standing of LGBTQIA+ persons have raised new awareness around gender and sexuality. People whose sexual attractions and gender identities cannot be contained within hetero-normative (and binary/cisgender) culture have always existed, but oppression, discrimination, and violence against them have long been the norm and continue. In the U.S. transgender people have been especially singled out for targeted abuse. We must re-envision a radically inclusive society that gives full permission to individual sexualities and identities. This discussion looks at the systemic oppression of gender and sexual minorities in the context of intersectionality and explore how to achieve the full inclusion of all genders to help bring humanity to its full potential.
With: Erica Anderson, Ph.D., President of USPATH, the newly created affiliate of WPATH, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health; Fresh “Lev” White, CEO of Affirmative Acts Consulting; Salgu Wissmath, a nonbinary photographer whose work explores the intersections of mental health, queer identity, ethnicity, and faith.
Transcript
ERICA ANDERSON: Good afternoon. I’m Erica Anderson and this is Salgu Wissmath, and Fresh “Lev” White, and we are here to share with you about gender. We hope you’ll keep in mind that when you’ve seen one transgender person, you’ve seen one transgender person. And we each are speaking for ourselves.
Please be kind. I may use language, we may use language that’s different than the language that you prefer. This is a big challenge for us, I think, in society in understanding each other around these issues. I’m trying to be respectful, and I hope you cut me some slack. We’re here to be involved in a heart-centered change, and all of us want to share our experiences and our observations, and engage you.
I’m going to set the context a little bit. We’ve never been here before in this society, and we could elaborate on that in a lot of ways. It’s not just because we’re on the cusp of the third decade of the 21st century, but this society hasn’t ever existed before. The threats to humanity are real and dire, both the environmental threats and the social threats. And the need to evolve to create sustainable solutions to our environmental challenges and our social and cultural challenges is real and significant.
So a lot of people at Bioneers are talking about what’s sustainable. Certainly not environmental degradation and exploitation. And there’s a social version of that as well. What is sustainable is not colonialism, racism, sexism, ageism, classism, ableism, homophobia and transphobia, or cisgenderism. That may be a new one for some of you. These are also social degradation and exploitation.
The threats to the environment are better known, I think, to most of you. I like to talk about the fact that nature loves variation, and that when the variation decreases, that we have a problem — the exploitation of the environment, the change in the distribution of wildlife and so forth.
And as far as threats to environment and humanity, obviously the Trump administration, which ignores science and attempts to bend it in the direction of moneyed interests by releasing public lands, suspending environmental regulations, instructed the CDC (Center for Disease Control), to not use the term transgender, eliminating data collection about violence to transpersons, and argued very recently to the Supreme Court — in a case around having to do with sex discrimination — that the Civil Rights Act has nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity.
Can we create a better society? As Martin Luther King observed years ago, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. I had an occasion recently to test that justice. I was invited to the 68th UN Civil Society conference. It was the first time it had ever been in Salt Lake City. They wanted me to do a session on gender, and after we went round and round about it on a conference call, I said, “So in the Salt Palace, where the event is going to be held, there will be gender neutral bathrooms, won’t there?” And what happened then was silence, stammering, and a lot of pretext. And then later — surprise, surprise — I received a form letter disinviting me. The CEO didn’t know it had happened. She got on the phone with me. I said, “Well, this is interesting you’re calling me; I’ve been disinvited.” She said, “Why?” I said, “Well, you better find out.”
Until recent years, few people knew about gender identity differences, and most gay and lesbian people were closeted. We didn’t refer to a spectrum of genders until very recently. I’ve been a psychologist for 40 years, so I can say something about the training of health professionals, who subscribe to the dominant, binary construction of gender, so-called “men are from Mars and women are from Venus”. A lot of bunk.
So here’s some language for us in our conversation today. This is our version of “Trans101”. Sex or gender as designated at birth on the birth certificate has historically been binary, and in most states there still are only two choices. But that’s the sex as designated at birth. Sexual identity attractions or sexual orientation, as we say it, is different than sex. Gender identity is the felt identity someone has about who they are and, according to us, is a spectrum. Gender expression can be very individual and different, but we generally think of things like masculine and feminine or neither, androgynous.
What’s the difference between non-binary, gender queer, and gender non-conforming? Think about it. The Merriam-Webster dictionary just added “they” as an acceptable pronoun to refer to a single person. Generally, we think of someone using “they” as someone who might be non-binary. California has a third gender for driver’s license applications, now. So my question is, in terms of inclusion: How big is the trans tent?
I was on a TV show in Sweden three years ago, and I came out to two million people. It was the first time an openly transgender person was on primetime television. I was also on the cover of a Swedish psychiatric journal. They wanted to do a special issue on gender — that’s what [SWEDISH WORD] with the two symbols — and they wanted me on the cover. That’s a pretty bold move. I wouldn’t have done it in the USA. I probably would have lost my license, or certainly been soundly criticized. But Sweden is Sweden.
The presidential election of 2016 kind of blew a hole in a lot of my plans, and really created havoc in terms of our progress towards inclusion in our society. But resisting the cultural backlash has further emboldened me. Has it been hard? Damn right it’s been hard. I’ve been discriminated against in housing, healthcare, employment, and public accommodations. I’ve been roundly criticized by my own community, including those most marginalized. There’s cross-sectional, cross-generational trauma in the trans community, and a lot of hurt. And I have to remember from time to time that I have my hurt, but I also have privilege. And I try to use that privilege in a constructive way.
I have found my voice, literally, for speaking out about injustice, and particularly about gender inclusion through working on a song about being gendered, called Man, and performing a shtick that I call My Neo-Vagina Monologue — thank you to Eve Ensler.
But we’re in a society that exercises denial every day — of climate change, of the spectrum of genders. In my own work with trans youth, there’s a disinformation campaign about the work that we’re doing in gender-affirming youth. One of the publications says, “Medication used to block puberty in transgender youth is associated with thousands of deaths.” That would be alarming if it’s true. How did they get to that statement? Well, one of the medications used for blocking puberty is also used in a different formulation for males who have prostate cancer as a palliative to slow down the rate of growth of a cancer. And the deaths are all associated with that use.
So we have a lot of disinformation. There’s a lot of fear-mongering about trans persons being sexual predators. In the red states, the so-called bathroom bills. And just recently the Supreme Court, when it heard arguments about these cases before it, heard from our federal government that it should be legitimate, in effect legal, to discriminate against gay and trans people.
So we’re at a crossroads in the plight of gender minorities, transgender creative, non-binary persons. Coming out and transitioning is hard. Often it means that someone has had decades of self-torture. We call it in the trade “gender dysphoria”. It’s really self-torture. Facts about self-harm of transgender creative and non-binary are very alarming. A significant portion of the majority have had suicidal thoughts, and 40% are reporting as attempting it. The long struggle for acceptance is illustrated in a study I became aware of from Los Angeles which looked at people who had transitioned in mid-life. They said they came to terms with who they were and their identity 20 years before they stepped forward to talk to anybody about it — 22 years for trans men and 27 years for women.
The divisions among people in the last few years have spiked. We need truth and reconciliation in so many ways. But imagine a society, if you will, in which every person feels free to be themselves, and every child feels loved and accepted; that no one is marginalized or discriminated against, and that everyone feels free and empowered to be themselves authentically. This would, in my judgment, constitute evolutionary consciousness. We’re quite a ways away from that, but everyone in this room has a place to play and contribute to this emerging society. We all have our given opportunities. If everyone recognizes the legitimacy of others’ identities, including the complexities of their identities, no one is “less than”. Others different than ourselves are not abnormal, since we are normal. That’s been a paradigm used by many.
What if we stopped arguing whether Title 7, Discrimination on the Basis of Sex, included sexual orientation and gender identity — that in this society there is no permissible discrimination based upon someone’s identity. None. Imagine. And what if sincere religious beliefs did not trump (pun intended) individual rights? Individual differences are often cast as the question “Is it nature or nurture that contributes the most to an individual’s identity?” That’s the time-honored paradigm in psychology. Arguably this question lies at the heart of psychology, and the raison d’etre is how does one person differ from another. But here’s what I say. The new answer must be it’s neither nature nor nurture, it’s nature through nurture in culture. It’s the culture that must change in order for us to evolve.
I’m sure you’re here because you want to be part of the solution, recognizing that a great deal must change. So let’s be the change that we want. Thanks. [APPLAUSE]
SALGU WISSMATH: Hi. My name is Salgu. I identify as non-binary, and I use “they, them, their” as pronouns. I’m a photographer based in Sacramento, and I freelance right now for editorial publications, nonprofits, and just other odds and ends.
A lot of my personal work is about identity — my own and others — and it’s focused a lot on the queer community. I started this project Without Disguise about four years ago while I was figuring out my own coming out journey, and my gender identity, and also dealing with depression.
So one of the first things I did when I came out is go to the thrift store and buy a tie. And I just remember that feeling of gender euphoria when I first got to wear a tie. It just really fit. So a lot of the images are just me dealing with a lot of emotions, a lot of depression, a lot of fear, a lot of shame. As you know, coming out can be a really hard experience, and I think for a lot of people who do come out, they say that the hardest part is coming out to yourself, and that was definitely one of the things that I found.
After that project, I was living abroad at the time teaching English in South Korea, and I knew I wanted to go back into photography full time. So I applied to grad school and I got in. I went to Ohio University and worked on my master’s project called “Documenting Dysphoria”. It’s a photographic project trying to illustrate what dysphoria feels like.
For those who do not know, gender dysphoria can be defined as the distress a person experiences as a result of the disconnect between their internal gender identity and the sex or gender they were assigned at birth. For many people who identify as trans or non-binary or anywhere on the spectrum of gender, this is often a way that they figure out their own identity.
Some of the images are just illustrations of each individual’s own journey with dysphoria. I had conversations with them, asked them how gender dysphoria felt to them, what situations made them experience it. So based on their own lived experience, we created an illustration of that feeling. It was a gallery show, so along with the photographs, there was text along with the images from their own words answering these questions and describing their own journeys.
This first picture is Meagan. She describes what gender dysphoria feels like to someone who maybe doesn’t know what it is. She says: First, picture in your mind someone you dislike. Then imagine tomorrow, when you wake up, every single person on the planet insists you have to act just like them; you have to dress like them; you have to like the types of movies and TV shows they like; you have to read the kind of stuff they do; and all the stuff that you want to do you are absolutely not allowed to do it without being extremely ridiculed, mocked, and ostracized by society. That’s basically how it feels to suffer dysphoria.
This is Cricket[ph]. She described an experience to me that she had when she was a kid. She was playing with some other children in the neighborhood, some boys, some girls, and didn’t really feel like she fit in with either of them, and she describes — she says: I remember going over to the other side of the street, sitting on the bridge overlooking the brook that fed the lake, and just wondering, What am I? Am I an alien? I was about 5.
This is Taylor[ph]. He uses he/him pronouns, and he shares: I think visibility of transgender people is incredibly important. Without it, I probably would have never come out, and I wouldn’t have had the multitude of opportunities I do now.
And that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to share this project, is just to increase visibility and representation. As we talked about, there’s a lot of negative representation of trans people in the media, and there’s so many people that don’t discover their identity until later in life, or maybe they discover their identity early in life, but they keep it hidden for years and years, as was mentioned earlier. So this project is just a way to increase that visibility, both for people that are not part of the LGBTQ community, but those who are, and so that they can see themselves represented.
This is Danny[ph]. Danny’s is he and they pronouns, and he describes an experience going to the bathroom, which is kind of a trigger point for a lot of transgender folks. Danny says: I got hit with a purse once, and I was like, “I’m just trying to pee,” because she thought I was a boy. I was like, “That’s fair, but where am I supposed to pee?”
This is Skylar[ph]. She uses she/hers pronouns, and she described the feeling of seeing her other friends have children and not being able to. So she says: I really wanted to be a mother and have that physical and emotional connection with my child. Because I can’t have that, it’s very devastating.
This is Bea[ph]. Bea uses he and they pronouns. Bea answers the question: What do you hope people come to understand through these images? The idea that trans doesn’t look a certain way, and that it’s expressed in so many different ways.
And that’s another kind of point I wanted to share through these images is that I think, as was mentioned at the beginning, when you meet one trans person, you meet one trans person. And there’s such a range in the spectrum of identities, of gender identities, and experiences also with gender dysphoria. So a lot of people experience gender dysphoria in different ways. Some people who identify as trans or non-binary may not experience gender dysphoria. Not everyone chooses to transition medically or socially. Some people prefer to kind of challenge gender-normative expression and they might identify a certain way but not conform to like what it looks like to be a girl, what it looks like to be a boy.
So this is Delphine[ph]. Delphine uses they/them pronouns. They identify as non-binary. They — I asked them: What are some examples of types of situations where you are more aware of gender dysphoria? When it comes to what does it mean to dress professionally. What does it mean to enter into spaces where there are very rigid gender norms, especially around professional dress. So Delphine was the LGBT center director at my school in Ohio, and they shared an example once, kind of snarkly, they said I had to wear a tie, but they didn’t say what I had to wear a tie with. And I think this was an outfit they had worn to a wedding that they were — a friend’s wedding or a family member’s wedding. But this image especially I think is really important to share because the year following after I left earlier this year, they were actually fired from their job without cause. And in Ohio you don’t have to give a reason to — that particular job didn’t have to — you didn’t have to have cause to fire them. And so I think that’s a really important thing to keep in mind given what’s — the current cases that are before the Supreme Court just a few weeks ago questioning whether we can have a right to have jobs as LGBT people in this world.
And then finally, this is me. This is my artist’s statement. I’m just going to share one part of it. So these images are intended to affirm and offer visibility to the trans and non-binary experience from a queer lens. First and foremost, this project is for the trans community for us to hear and see fellow trans people’s stories, for us to recognize parts of ourselves in the experiences of others. Ultimately it is to empower us to embrace our own skin. For everyone who is trans, non-binary, gender non-conforming are questioning their gender identity, this project is for you.
So that’s my work. In case you’re interested, I have a few zines of this project. And you can find me online — Twitter, Instagram. If you are interested in learning more about this project, participating, or you need a photographer.
FRESH “LEV” WHITE: So my name is Fresh “Lev” White. I go by Lev. My pronouns are “he” and “they”. How many people, when you were a little kid, did your parents ask you what your gender was? Who did that happen for? Yeah. It didn’t happen, did it? So somebody decided that based on your sex, that’s what your gender was. I want to talk a little bit about what that means.
They ended up putting us in particular clothing, and deciding what kind of games we can play, and toys we can play with. So what we’re talking about up here is deconstructing the gender construct. Before the ’40s, boys wore pink here and in Europe, and girls wore blue, based on the virgin Mary. It wasn’t until society pages decided to switch it. There’s literally a line in the newspaper that says: “Boys shall no longer wear pink”. Right?
There was a time when women couldn’t drive cars, own homes, vote, right? Those are social constructs. It’s not real. They made it up. It was illegal for men to go topless until the late ’40s. Their bathing suits looked like a tank top with shorts, and they fought that in court. So the idea that women’s bodies are indecent and men’s bodies are decent is a social construct and a lie. It’s just got passed on that way.
So these are the best of times and the worst of times. In the worst of times, we are living with legacies of scarcity that support racism, sexism, classism. The whole idea that there’s not enough is the only reason that we experience these kinds of -ism experiences — transphobia — trying to keep people down, because we need to make space for us. That’s a lie. You can actually be your full self, and the person next to you gets to be their full self, and the person next to them gets to be their full self. There’s enough for all of us, and we can actually thrive.
It’s the best of times because we’ve never been in a time in human existence where violence has been so low, believe it or not. Our ancestors could not have dreamed of the tools that we have in order to live good lives. And we have to break out of the constructs and get past the -isms in order to step into our power and see where we can have impact, and move there, and have impact there.
In respect for Salgu’s and Erica’s reference to dysphoria, me as a spiritual being, that’s not my experience. My experience is that gender is a social construct, and dysphoria is anyone who believes that there are only two. As human beings we’ve always walked this planet in expanded genders. If you look back to the histories from Asia to Africa to Native Americans to Europe, you will find people of various genders.
By the time I was 6, I was really clear that there was more to my gender than I was allowed to express. I didn’t know how to express it, but I still played into it whenever I could. Being labeled female at birth, having to wear a dress and patent leather shoes to church on Sundays — that was a problem that I worked out on the streets with the boys playing stick ball or whatever I had to do. I used my body in a way as a defense. I was sort of the bully’s bully person, and grew up to be butch identified, very much honoring the fact that I was born female, and honoring as well that I’m a masculine person. Take away this beard, add some breasts, I don’t look much different than I looked 10 or 11 years ago when I transitioned. I am in this body again having a spiritual experience. What I am and what all of you are is much bigger than our society ever lets us know.
As a meditation instructor, but more importantly my title is love and compassion activist, I just want to remind you that are you loved, and that you were meant to be here, and your impact matters, and you are worthy of everything that you dream and desire, so thank you.
Q&A
ERICA: Until about three or four years ago, I used to hear from younger queer people all the time: Why do we need pride? We’ve got marriage equality, we’ve got protections here and there, why do we need pride?
I came out in high school. I’m accepted by everybody I care about. And then we had an election, and now we know why we need pride, and why we need to be together, and why we need community, and why we need to empower each other, and why we need to love and accept each other.
The gains that had been made can be quickly lost, and we’re in jeopardy of losing them now, from the forces on the right and the people who are repressing. And I deliberately included that word denial in what I talked about because I think there’s a similar dynamic at work with people who are denying climate change and the science around climate and the environment, and the people who are denying the beauty of gender diversity.
SALGU: Right now there’s a big movement in the journalism and photojournalism world to make sure that there’s diversity and representation — not just the photographers that are hired, but the type of work that we’re doing that gets published. I think that can be translated to any industry. So if it’s environmental work, social work, I think it’s important to be inclusive and intersectional in anything you do. As queer people, trans people, I think that we have a unique life experience and unique perspective that probably shapes the way that we approach our work, whether that is faith work or journalism work or social justice work. Being present, being seen and visible allows our full selves to come to whatever movement it is that we’re involved in.
LEV: I really appreciated you saying queer and trans, because not everybody’s both. Some people are queer identified, but not part of the trans community and vice versa. So thank you for calling that out. When I was here 19 years ago, it was a lonely place, so some of it is about just seeing that there are other people of color who are clued into some of the environmental injustices or experiences that are happening, especially in our communities, and that we can do something about it. And then the part about visibility, thank you so much for doing that.
The safety part comes in that we have an impact in numbers. I can say that I’m being harmed, but when 50 of us say that we’re being harmed, it helps people who are simply ignorant. Maybe they have the best intention, but simply ignorant of their harms to decide that they need to do something, because like us they are overwhelmed. Not to make an excuse, but it’s what happens.
Q: What does it means to be gender creative?
ERICA: When you’ve seen one transgender person, you’ve seen one. So I think gender creative means someone who is really thinking about who they are and what their gender is. I see a lot of young people who are experimenting, who are thinking about who they are in a very deep and abstract way — way deeper and more abstract than you’d expect based on their chronological age. I take great comfort in and am inspired by that, because these kids are really thinking deeply about some important things, and that’s great. So gender creative, I think, just means you’re thinking about who you are, and maybe it’s fluid and dynamic.
Q: What are your perspectives on community support?
LEV: I don’t know if there’s anything more valuable. I’ve been a healer and a counselor and a coach, and I didn’t reach as much out as I could have. Part of it is because of my age, part of it is my personality. At that time, I didn’t know how to lean in. But now I do, and I advise everybody to do that when they can.
I have communities now everywhere, globally. This morning, one of my 16-year-old friend/client folks wanted to know about top surgery. I can reach out to 500 people on my mailing list that I know fairly well. Connecting with people, especially spiritually, as well as around gender and ideals is important.
SALGU: I think community is important. I’ve traveled a lot in the last 10 years, I’ve lived in a lot of different places, and every time I go somewhere, I try to connect with community, and especially the queer community. Some people find it hard to make new friends. When you’re older in life and you’re not in school anymore, it’s hard to make new friends. But I think it’s so important, because if you live in a new place, if you don’t know anyone and you don’t have community, it can be really hard to be your full self and enjoy life.
I found Meetup to be a really great way to create community. There’s always queer meet-ups in any town that I’ve ever been. I’m very active in the LGBT center community in the town I’m in, but there’s also a Meetup group that I go to that’s a board game night. I just love going there. There’s always ways to find community, and I think it’s really important.
ERICA: I have also kind of an international community. I’ve been to Sweden a number of times, and I have Facebook friends all over the world. Some of those singular experiences for me have been connecting with people in other places who share some of my experiences as a transgender person. I’ve been to Brazil and been embraced by the trans community there, and that was really breathtaking in a way. They are really under duress now in the current political situation. They’re in my heart all the time.
I do some speaking in Sweden. Last year I spoke at EuroPride, which is in Sweden, and there was a human rights conference there about LGBTQ rights in Europe, and I really value hearing what’s going on in other countries.
So there’s varying level of acceptance of trans identities all over the world. In Poland, you can get your birth certificate changed if you’re trans, but the people who signed your birth certificate have to sign an attestation that they lied on the original one.
Q: Coming out can be painful, how can we navigate awkwardness with family and friends?
SALGU: I can definitely relate. I mean, family’s awkward. I am out to my family, but they’re not necessarily the best about using my pronouns or things like that. But at least they kind of know who I am. And it’s still awkward.
I only came out four years ago, so I’m kind of a newbie at this, but as I’ve become more confident in my own identity, just as I’ve become more confident with the people around me. I find solace in my chosen family — really close friends, my career community that I lean on to accept all my identities and talk about the nuances, and debate about all the ins and outs about queerness. Those are not conversations I have with my family on a day-to-day basis. We eat dinner, we hang out.
Even though my parents don’t use my pronouns, it doesn’t bother me as much as it did when I first came out to them. It’s more about finding confidence in my own identity, which is always changing, and finding other people in my community like friends, family, chosen family, that I can really hash that out with, and that kind of helps with the awkwardness a little bit. I hope that helps.
ERICA: I’ll give you a handle that I use. I’m a psychologist for 40 years, and I’ve been through my own issues with this in terms of getting people to accept me. I hear all the time people saying to me, “Well, so and so in my family doesn’t understand, and they keep asking me, How do I understand? How do I understand this?” And here’s what I say about that: It’s not so important that you understand, just accept. If you accept, you’ll start to understand.
LEV: One of the things that I encourage is that whenever it is possible, allow our families to mourn. So, for example, I took 10 years learning about testosterone before I took it, so I had time to process my transition. Allow some time for your family to grieve who they’ve lost. At some point, hopefully they accept who you are and call you that.
I’m an adoptee. I’ve actually divorced my adoptee family. I gave them plenty of time, many years, in order to accept me as a queer and trans person. And just this past February, with lots of love and compassion, I just released them from my life, and let them know that I have no hard feelings — you’re having your experience and I’m having mine. I’m not recommending that for anyone, but just sharing my experience. I will not allow anyone in my life who can’t respect and honor me, especially when I’m doing that for them as well. [APPLAUSE]
Q: To recognize awkwardness & discomfort is a rebellious act in changing the world. What does it mean to be radically included?
SALGU: Any time I go to a conference and the pronoun’s already on there, or the speakers are intersectional, I can see myself represented. Not just queer stuff but also like people of color, brown, native, black — be totally as intersectional as you possibly can.
Earlier this year, I went to a conference, and I was telling my friend, this is the most queer and intersectional conference I’ve ever been to, and it wasn’t even a queer conference. It was just so intersectional, I felt so seen there. I think every conference should be like that.
Any kind of work you’re doing, put pronouns in your email signature. When you go to meetings, introduce yourself with your name and pronouns. I don’t have to be the only one. Things like that can really make people feel seen, because microaggressions make you feel not radically included.
Make sure there are multiple gender options on any kind of form. So even though California has a third gender on their license — which I have — when you sign up for insurance or you go to the doctor’s office, or any other kind of bureaucratic form, there’s only two options. So they haven’t caught up yet. Any time there’s any kind of bureaucratic thing that you can eliminate, that makes someone feel invisible, that’s one thing you can do.
I think things like this conference. Like I was asked to be on this panel, and I’m really blessed to be here. There’s two people of color on this panel that are queer, and that’s pretty awesome. Not every panel is like that. So just be mindful of the speakers that you choose, people that you invite to be part of any kind of organization, all of those things make people feel seen.
LEV: Being on a panel with an older trans woman who’s white and done her work so that she reached out to people of color to be with her, that’s radically inclusive. Because she could have reached out to lots of white trans men and white trans women. [APPLAUSE] So just want to call that out.
Earlier this year there was a conference called Soul Play, which is like the hippie event in the woods, and I went to speak there. Before I went they called me up. In the first conversation I asked them about restrooms, and of course they didn’t have any gender neutral restrooms. And unlike in Erica’s story, this white-run, straight-run organization called me back in two days and said all the bathrooms are now gender neutral.
So I think we have to ask for what we want. We have to look around to see who and what is missing. We have to look for our own scarcity around if there’s enough, making sure we’re not excluding anybody. We have to learn how to say yes more, and figure out how to make that yes work so that people feel included.
ERICA: So I’ve been a professor, and I teach, and I teach about gender, and one of the things I say is that humans are hard-wired to detect differences between other human beings when they encounter them, and the first detection, which isn’t even conscious, is of threat. Is this other person a threat to me? And then very quickly on after that is: What’s the gender of this person? Okay? And to some extent, those are sort of intertwined. They’re not mutually exclusive, because of course we know that in urban society, males are more of a threat than females. Or here in the suburbs.
I think we want to take people off the hook and say, okay, you were wired this way, okay, but you’ve got to get over it. You’ve got to learn to accept other people and their differences. And there’s so much inflammation of divisions in the last few years, and we are here in this beautiful community to try to change that.
LEV: I’ve been talking to people about lateral oppression. Right? The idea that let’s say Salgu decides, I’m in the worst case because I identify as “they”, and Erica decides, I’m in the worst case because I’m senior, and I decide, No, I’m in the worst case because I’m the black guy getting shot on the street. And we do this to each other in different ways all the time. And it’s another way that the power structure sets us up. Right? What if we could each learn to step up and step back?
Last night I had the honor to sit with trans women of color at a lesbian event in San Francisco and it was so wonderful to watch them be able to step up and win an award. They let me sit with them. I wasn’t even supposed to be at their table, because they know me, because I know there’s a time for me to step back and have them step up, right, for them to be held and supported, and there are times when they come back and support trans men or lesbian women. Right?
So beware lateral oppression. It’s unnecessary. It’s a tool of the man. Alright? We can each support each other in the ways that we need it.
Q: What about the expression “you guys”?
LEV: We actually use it less and less because people call it out. So please, continue to call it out. I don’t know, less and less certainly in this lifetime in this experience, more and more people are learning not to use that term. So it used to be used a lot more, believe it or not.
SALGU: I can totally relate because I slip all the time and I use that phrase, but every time I do it, I’m like, Oh, I said it again. And I try as much as possible to use other phrases, like y’all or hey. Hey, everyone, or whatever it is. But I think that, as Fresh said, if you call it out, not everyone knows that that could be offensive to some people, or that it’s something you might want to be mindful of. So if you hear someone saying it, then by all means, let them know, like maybe try this other phrase because of whatever, and educate them, help them.
Give them an alternative, I just say y’all or everyone, because it’s so gendered and you want to be as gender neutral in our language as possible to be respectful of everyone’s identities. Even “ladies and gentlemen” is outdated. But you have to learn an alternative, you can’t take something away if you don’t replace it with something. I would just explain why you want to let them know to maybe change their language, and then give them an example that they could use instead.
ERICA: Having great empathy for people over 50, I want to say if you’ve overlearned something for many decades, it’s really hard to retrain yourself. And thank you, we need to get called out and offered alternatives very much.
Even in our community, largely, the word gay used to be a slur. It was embraced by those who themselves decided that being gay was something they could be proud of. Queer was also a pejorative term. So the language itself is very fluid, that’s why I include that comment about please be kind, be forgiving. If we have that spirit, and we say let’s be inclusive, let’s be respectful, let’s try things, I think we’re going to continue to move things in the right direction.
Q: What pronouns are triggering?
LEV: I don’t ask anybody without sharing mine first, and then I don’t expect that they’re going to tell me theirs, but my introduction is: “Hi, I’m Lev. My pronouns are they.” And then if the person decides they want to share their pronoun, that’s great, otherwise I get used to using their name. My other pronoun is just like Fresh or Lev, like my name. Be consistent so that it’s not just the person who you’re not sure about, but you’re introducing yourself the same way to everybody.
SALGU: I also think it depends on the context. Any time I’m in any queer setting, I always ask people’s pronouns because it’s I know it’s safe to, and I don’t have to worry as much. But I think Lev had a good example, you can always introduce with your pronouns so it leaves it open, like if they want to share theirs, they can, and if they don’t, they don’t have to.
I help at my kid’s school a lot, so when I approach young people, I say: Tell me something about yourself, or tell me what makes you you. That way some of them say like, “My name’s Kyle and I’m a boy”, or “My name’s so and so, my favorite color’s pink”. Like I know that that’s the answer that they have and what they want to share with me about who they are.
ERICA: I have kind of a complicated life because how I do this varies setting to setting. I’m in the Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic at UCSF, so I’m seeing trans youth, gender creative, non-binary youth and their families, and more often than not I, upon meeting a child, will say, Oh, and what is your name? And what pronouns would you prefer? I’m almost always the first doctor who’s ever asked them. I’m kind of making a point that we’re here, we’re going to embrace you for being you, and we want to be respectful, whether they’re 5 years old or 15 years old. And it works pretty well. Believe it or not, I’m kind, so kids are happy about it generally. And very rarely does a kid seem to be very uncomfortable. If they do, I’m completely backing off, I’m trying to say something reassuring to them.
Q: What advice do you have for people in professional settings who want to be inclusive, but don’t know how to be?
LEV: My number one answer is invite me in to do a training, that’s number one. Last week, I was on retreat and found out that one of the people in my community who’s trans gender woman committed suicide. So we’re not talking about, oh today, this is my gender and I’m playing around, but to actually take it seriously that at least 19 trans women of color have been killed this year, and the suicide, it’s actually a life and death is what we’re talking about.
We’re all smiling here. I’m sure Erica’s been seeing people that are suffering deeply. It’s not just about who we want to be called and how we want to be recognized, but that this is about our life and our life experience, and we know that we’re supposed to be here, and we know there’s space for us, and we know that people can make space for us if they can get over their own insecurities. This is the importance of why we’re here, not just to educate a few people who are clueless, but to let people know that it’s a critical thing.
SALGU: I do a lot of work with the Sacramento LGBT Center, and I know that they have a specific branch that’s just for outreach and training. I’m sure whatever city you’re in there’s a local center or other organization that will offer training that will educate people. Those resources are out there, so definitely invite them into your place of work if that’s something that’s important to you.
ERICA: So I’m at UCSF currently, and I’m actively involved in training future health professionals — doctors, nurses, psychologists. I spend time every week with people at varying levels of training, and who are trying to learn about all of this, accepting LGBTQIA+ youth, especially. And I will say I’m really encouraged personally by what I’ve seen in the last five years. In fact, the whole field has moved a lot. My college human sexuality textbook didn’t have transgender in it. It had transsexual in it, and said about people who are transsexual that they have a deep-seated psychiatric disorder. And that has radically changed. I’m not going to give you the whole lecture, but I’m really encouraged.
There is an organization worldwide that’s devoted to this, the science and the practice of transgender healthcare — WPATH — and I’m very active in that. And I think that we’re moving in the right direction. But today’s professionals, whatever profession it is didn’t get this in their school, in their training, and so they’re coming from way far behind, I’m afraid.
Everyone has their own individual pathway. There’s no rule book here for LGBTQIA+ identities or life courses. And we all have to make our own decisions.
I happen to be very out in public about the fact that I’m transgender. But I know a lot of transgender people who still are really preferring to be just kind of blending in and kind of quiet and private. And that’s fine. That’s fine. And everybody comes to their own awareness of themselves in different ways, some very quickly, maybe early, some over a long period of time. I’m the kind of slow learner that way. It took me a long time to sort of figure out who I was. But it’s okay. We’re all individuals, and that’s one of the beauties, I think, of what we can do in the LGBTQIA+ community is recognize the differences, but the similarities, that we’re all trying to be ourselves and authentically so.
LEV: I run meditation groups and day-longs for trans and gender queer people, and some gender queer people have felt uncomfortable because they “pass” as cigender people, and they feel they don’t belong there. My work is to help expand the human experience. So that means showing up as you are in whatever form that you show up in, and then being held and respected. And then holding particular space so that when I’m with young trans people and trans women who may be targeted, I’m not trying to push myself forward. I’m being an ally because I have — because of this privilege, but putting trans women of color first, putting trans women in general, putting young gender queer people first, doesn’t erase me. Right? So I can do that. I just want to say that, like with impact. I still get to show up as me, and they get to honor me as me.
Q: What about when no box really fits, and someone could like anybody, but has fear of getting involved in the community due to lack of experience?
LEV: Oh my god, youth. [LAUGHTER] It’s real. People will tell you that you’re fake or you’re not this, and you have to show up that way or else you’re not that. So I totally feel you and hear you. I just want to encourage you to be yourself, because the community is there. There are people there who don’t care about who you sleep with, and the people who don’t care about who you identify, they care about all the other gifts that you bring as much or primary, but you will find your tribe.
SALGU: Before I came out, I spent a lot of time on Tumbler, and it was a great community. It really helped me come out. YouTube and Tumbler, I learned a lot about all the identities. But there’s all sorts of communities out there, online communities, in-person communities, and microcosms of each community. So there’s a place for you. On Tumbler, there’s a lot of that negativeness of like, “well you’re not really part of the community because of this or because of this” but then you go to Meetup in person and nobody really cares if you’ve dated someone or if you haven’t dated someone. They don’t know. They’re not going to ask you. It’s not a question when you go to a queer meetup, they’re like, “excuse me, like how many people have you dated in your life”. No one asks you. You just say what you are and they’re like, okay. So don’t be afraid to go and meet the community because, and they’re there for you, and they will accept you.
ERICA: Thanks for the question, and please go, as they say, and feel a part of it. And I want to thank everybody who came today. Thanks for participating. And please continue to think positively about our opportunities to include each other. Have a good one. [APPLAUSE]
