Obedience and Forgiveness: An after-action report of my discussion with NeedGod.net
Introduction
A few weeks back I engaged in a discussion on YouTube with Ryan of NeedGod.net. Initially, I had entered the stream simply to discuss the dichotomy between the Catholic, Orthodox, and High-Church Protestant Christus Victor model of salvation versus the Reformed Penal Substitutionary Atonement model. However, the conversation quickly turned into an argument regarding the actual means of salvation. I readily admit that I was at a disadvantage; he, a seasoned interlocutor with a team of approximately 5–6 fellows to assist him with fact-finding and slides, versus I, a lone Catholic Christian. While I did bring as much to the table as I could on the fly, and made minor errors in my discourse along the way, towards the end, I did fall to the desires of the flesh in that I became offended at his claim that I was not Christian.
Ryan claimed that I am not saved by virtue and that I did not agree with his markedly reformed soteriology of “faith alone”. He claimed that baptism and obedience to Christ are considered “works”. Ryan claimed in a triumphalist manner to have epistemic privilege regarding the salvation status of any and all Catholics and Orthodox who rely on the teachings of Christ regarding baptism. Naturally, those who disagree with his ideation of salvation are damned. Ryan also claimed that he has the assurance of salvation, does not need to ask Christ for forgiveness for any sins, and cannot fall away. Although I did say it out of frustration, it does indeed ring true that it is a good thing that Ryan is not God.
I will be addressing the order of salvation, that it has always been by grace through faith and not by works, that neither baptism nor obedience to Christ are works, that forgiveness of sins is necessary for salvation, the false belief in the perspicuity of scripture, and that there is a clear line between assurance and presumption. Another claim I intend to refute is the erroneous assertion that Apostolic Churches elevate the Church Fathers to the level of scripture, which is another baseless claim made by Ryan after I had logged off the call.
Baptism and Obedience
I have already written a pretty comprehensive article on the place of baptism in our salvation, how it now saves us, and how it is not a work as Saint Paul repudiates. However, Ryan did make a claim (without scriptural citation) that baptism, and by extension obedience to the precepts of Christ, were considered works and not salvific. At the time I will admit the exact scriptures did not come to mind, but I knew that obedience was a cornerstone of our status as Christians, and thereby requisite for salvation.
The Great Commission
Let us review The Great Commission, to see what exactly Christ commanded the apostles to do in their ministry.
Matthew 28:16–20
“16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Three calls to action occur in the above scripture:
1. Go and Make Disciples of all Nations — meaning evangelize and carry the gospel message across the world.
2. Baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit — See my article for more information.
3. Teach them to obey everything that I have commanded you.
Added emphasis on part 3. There are several scriptures that really hammer down what exactly Christ meant by obedience. One thing that I mentioned during my discourse was the concept of remaining in Christ’s friendship as part of salvation. Ryan denied this out of hand. Although Ryan was unhappy with my quoting of Saints, I will share this snippet from Saint Basil the Great, and allow the scripture to decide betwixt us.
“Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth.”
Luke 6:47–49
“47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will obey what I command.”
John 14:21
“Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me… .”
John 14:23
“Jesus replied, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching.’ ”
John 5:12–14
“12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. “
Philippians 2:12
“Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
1 John 2:5–6
“But if anyone obeys His word, God’s love is truly made complete in Him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.”
1 John 5:3
“This is love for God: to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome…”
Matthew 19:16–17
16 Then a man came to Jesus and said, “Teacher, what good deed should I do to gain eternal life?” 17 Jesus said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to enter into life, obey the commandments.”
Now, Ryan claimed that through it all, obeying Christ somehow puts the power in our hands, through our own merits, and thereby makes it a work-based process. This is completely untrue. Matthew comes in handy to disprove that this is any sort of labor on our own, and I did mention this scripture during our talk:
Matthew 11:28–30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
“For my burden is light”. This is no labor, this is no work, this is mercy beyond all mercy. I emphasized several times throughout the discussion that we are in a state of synergism with Christ, not monergism, meaning that we cooperate with the grace we receive, and we do not merit it. I will expound upon this in a further section. The scriptural evidence we have for this idea of synergism is from 1 Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 3:9–20
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
Dialing into 3:9, we can see that the word translated here as “Laborers”, συνεργοί (synergoi) in Greek, is actually more aptly translated as “fellow-workers”. This by no means points to a Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian position, both of which are condemned heresies and not church teaching. Rather, the equation for how we serve as fellow workers is illuminated via scripture, and we will take a look at that order of operations now.
What is the Order of Operations?
Well, it is certainly not as complex as PEMDAS, but it is definitely formulaic. The most clear-cut description is in Ephesians and aligns perfectly with the teaching of the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church:
Ephesians 2:8–10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works (as Synergoi), which God prepared in advance for us to do.
By grace, through faith, and we can see this numerous times in scripture. As mentioned in my baptism article, we receive that call to grace from the Holy Spirit, and we respond in faith through the reception of baptism (which now saves us).
To summarize briefly:
1. We receive a call to Grace.
2. We respond to the call in faith.
3. We are receivers of saving grace and initially justified.
Most appropriately today’s epistle and gospel made this truth really resonate within me, shoutout to the Holy Spirit. The Gospel reading was Luke Chapter 5, which I will display below:
Luke 5:1–11
5 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.
3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon’s, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.
4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.
7 And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.
8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:
10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.
11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.
Putting all the facts together now:
1. Jesus asked Saint Peter to cast his net (Call to Grace).
2. Saint Peter answered the call and cast his net (Response to the call in Faith).
3. The net was superabundantly filled to the point of breaking (Reception of Grace/Initial Justification).
This same formula can be seen countless times in scripture, from the Hemorrhagic Woman, the Paralytic Man, the Centurion, Saint Peter walking on the sea, and more. But what happens after that initial justification? Is the race we run over, have we already won? Of course not! Who starts a race and immediately wins? There is plenty of time between now and the hour of our death, and in between that time we are still under the influence of concupiscence, that latent desire to sin. When that stumble occurs, we still have recourse to forgiveness.
Forgiveness of Sins
Ryan had declared quite boldly that he did not need to request forgiveness for his sins, that nowhere in the bible is that shown, and that even the very notion of asking passively for the forgiveness of sins is in and of itself a work, and therefore not salvific. He further declared that God is purely justice, and that regardless of the ideas I have of God’s impassibility, he would not compromise on justice and provide forgiveness for sins. I made a point to show that God is not strictly justice and that rather God’s justice is a manifestation of his infinite mercy and love, and I quoted Saint Isaac the Syrian (who I erroneously said was Saint John Chrysostom), who said thus:
“God is so loving that he is unjust.”
If God was truly pure justice, and we were to take Ryan’s assertion to its logical conclusion, we would all simply burn for our sins in hell without a hope of salvation. but I digress. Once more, in the spirit of Saint Basil the Great, I will allow scripture to speak of its own accord:
Psalm 32:1–5
“1 Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 2 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit. 3 When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. 4 For day and night your hand was heavy on me; my strength was sapped as in the heat of summer. 5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord.” And you forgave the guilt of my sin.
Matthew 6: 9-15
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.”14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Mark 2:1–5
2 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.
2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
1 John 1:8–9
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”
John 20:23
“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
James 5:13–16
“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.”
2 Corinthians 2:10
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
This is part of what it means to repent, metanoia (μετάνοια) in Greek, that “change of mind”, which will lead to a change in one’s life, and eventually to a change in nature.
Mark 1:14–15
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the gospel!”
As recipients of God’s grace, we become participants in the divine nature, which is shared to us in scripture.
1 Peter:4
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The word partakers in Greek is koinōnos (κοινωνός), meaning “companions, partners, or sharers”. This means that through our continued justification after our initial justification, we cooperate with that divine grace we receive, we seek forgiveness and spurn sin, and we experience a closeness to God in our adoption that was not possible before.
Romans 12:2
2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
This is the perfection we strive for; this is the perfection that Christ asked of us in Matthew.
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.
This is the concept, the reality, of Theosis. This sharing of His divinity, that He may dwell in us and we in Him (John 15:4) at the Eucharist. This is why Saint Athanasius declared that “God became man, so man might become god”. I will close this section with a snippet of Christmas mass:
“O God, who wonderfully created the dignity of human nature and still more wonderfully restored it, grant, we pray, that we may share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”
— Collect for Christmas, Mass during the Day
Assurance, or Presumption?
I did get some mild “The Pharisee and the Publican” vibes at this point, as he told me that he had “true faith” and “assurance” in his salvation, unlike us wretched (added for emphasis) Catholics; upon asking what I would say to Christ at my particular judgment I was honest and quoted that same Publican, whereas Ryan almost seemed the Pharisee come right off the page.
The epistle today was the clearest indicator of what we actually have recourse to, and what the true foundation of faith is:
Romans 8:13–23
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Emphasis on verse 20:
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in HOPE,
Hope. We are to have recourse to HOPE. It has always been the HOPE of salvation, never presumption. Much to Ryan’s ire I brought up Saint Augustine’s famous quote on the sin of presumption, a sin very much against hope:
“Do not DESPAIR one of the thieves was SAVED
Do not PRESUME one of the thieves was DAMNED.”
As a closing thought to this section, the way Ryan describes his ideation of faith is as a simple intellectual assent, which is completely foreign to scripture.
The (Alleged) Perspicuity of Scripture, and the Church Fathers
Ryan made repeated Personification Fallacies, wherein he claimed that scripture interprets itself and that his sole exegesis is the true interpretation of scripture based on its perspicuity. Now, he did not use the term “perspicuity” during our discussion, but as a proponent of Sola Scriptura his stance on scripture was obvious. One thing that needs to be clear is just because someone claims something does not make it so, and one thing I did markedly state was that we should all be good Bereans and check any teaching against scripture.
One thing that is certain is that the Bible does not, nor cannot self-interpret. Even with the very Bereans I mentioned, they combed through scripture to verify if what Saint Paul said was true. The Pharisees were the chiefest scholars of scripture (Torah) at the time, and they knew scripture like the backs of their hands, but did that make their interpretation correct? No! The guidance of the Holy Spirit is needed, and only a qualified interpreter can sus out the true meaning of scripture.
We can look no further than Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch to see the result of attempting to read scripture without a qualified interpreter:
Acts 8:30–31
30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Now, this is not to say that we are not able to arrive at our own personal interpretation of scriptures, provided we recognize that they are not necessarily the true meaning of scripture. Scripture expressly forbids personal interpretation of scripture or prophesy:
2 Peter 1:20–21
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
These personal interpretations have led to countless and innumerable Protestant divisions and deaths from the so-called Reformation on. Even in Saint Augustine’s time, he saw how divisive this could be:
“Heresies would not have arisen unless men had read good Scripture badly, and rashly asserted their own mistakes to be the truth.”
Now, I have quoted several church fathers in succession, however, this does not mean in any way, shape, or form that Church Fathers and their writings are commensurate to scripture, and the Church does not teach that, period.
What we must acknowledge is the idea that the Church is the decider of matters of faith, morals, and doctrine, and that continuity must be established within the church for interpretation. As Saint Vincent of Lerins so aptly put it:
“All possible care must be taken that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all.”
That is why we look to the church and her three pillars, which becomes the one pillar described by Saint Paul.
1 Timothy 2:15
15 but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
That is why we cling to the church Christ founded, because scripture spells out what the alternative is.
Matthew 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Back to task, this brazen division and denominationalism is also boldly contrary to what Scripture demands of us:
1 Corinthians 1:10
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
John 17:20–23
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — 23 I in them and you in me — so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
This is why we must lean on the bishops, the Magisterium of the Church, and the Holy Spirit who guides them all into the fullness of truth:
1 Corinthians 6:10
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
Conclusion
This after-action report is concluded, and we have covered a lot of topics in one brief article. I am eager to get back into the fray, to become a Gadfly for our Precious Lord, driving folks into a frenzy for the sake of truth and its propagation! Thank you for reading, and God bless you!
