Meet Lucy and Simon — talking about their careers and design that elevates the functional to delightful.
An occasional series where our designers interview our designers about their career, design interests, and their work at ClearScore.
Our Principal Product Designers have a wide range of experience that allows them to own large product areas through discovery to delivery, and beyond. We asked Relly Annett-Baker, our Head of UX Content Strategy, to interview Lucy Liu and Simon Goodwin who work on ClearScore’s new business areas. They talk about their careers and their influences, and the importance of a delightful experience for even the most mundane tasks.
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Relly: Hi both, please tell me your names and what you work on here at ClearScore?
Lucy: Hi! My name is Lucy Liu. Yes, like the Charlie’s Angels actress! My role at ClearScore is one of the Principal Product Designers leading design for new business. I’m currently working on something we haven’t announced yet.
Simon: Hello, I’m Simon Goodwin. I’m a Principal Product Designer and I’ve been here for, oh, 4 and a bit years. I’m leading design on DriveScore, improving that experience, and helping lots of new people to use it.
Relly: Awesome. Okay, so what got you both interested in design?
Lucy: So, I actually have a background in business. I did business school for university, got an MBA. Then I joined IBM 8, 9 years ago, as a rotational strategy consultant getting around the business and seeing which area fits me best.
My manager at that time was in user experience and everything she worked on seemed incredibly exciting. Meanwhile, I was on this super boring business project. And while I was working on that project, I was like, “Wait, can I help you out on some of the small things that you’re doing? Because it looks absolutely fun!”
So, I did that within the first couple of months of joining and really loved how she was able to focus on the human side of technology, rather than the business or the technology part of technology.
And I thought, “Yes, this is the most important bit because we’re designing technology to fit our human needs, and not to tailor our human behaviour towards how technology works.”
Simon: I was always into design growing up. My uncle was an architect. His wife was an architect and an artist. My mother was very artistic, my dad was an engineer. We were always drawing or painting or designing at home and at school.
For GCSE and A levels, I did a lot of design work. I did a lot of furniture, I did a lot of metal work. So I was always interested in design and creation through my upbringing. And it was something that they supported and encouraged at school.
When I left school, I was actually going to do automotive engineering design, so I did maths and physics and design A level and really kind of set myself up to get on that route. But there was a point where I thought “I’m really not sure about doing engineering anymore. I quite like the design side of it instead,” but I didn’t really know then what kind of design I wanted to do, I liked it all.
Relly: How did you train as designer?
Lucy: At IBM, it was primarily consulting. So, we were designing different things, whether it’s mobile, or web, or wearables for other clients across industries. For me, that part was really fun to get to know new problems in different industries, and solve super exciting problems through designing things, trying all kinds of things. And I really loved it and stuck to it for the next 8 years.
Simon: I did a really kind of generalistic degree in design studies. It covered history, team work, 2d design, 3d design, photography, model making, manufacturing, advertising. All sort of things. We did lots of live projects with people like Coca Cola and advertising companies.
Relly: And did you learn under anyone or have a mentor?
Lucy: At the time I joined, there weren’t a lot of new UX design hires at IBM so I had a lot of support from very seasoned UX designers there who kind of just mentored me on the job and gave me all their accumulated knowledge. They took the time to nourish a new team, a new wave of people.
Simon: My cousin introduced me to a guy who called himself a light artist. He was a holographic designer doing loads of design work for record companies, for bands. I was in a band myself so I was quite interested in that kind of promotional design work, so I’d talk to him about it. He helped during university.
I was doing a presentation for an ad pitch and he’d say “Oh, you can use an animated lenticular!” And he’d lend me this lenticular panel that was, like, worth £30,000 saying, “Just don’t drop it!”
But yeah, he helped me design and win a pitch with Coca Cola for my university assignment. He went on to do the the holographic portrait of the Queen that’s in the National Portrait Gallery!
Relly: It’s so important to learn from other people when you’re starting out, isn’t it? I feel like it helps you understand what is possible, how far you can go. So, how did you both get into product design specifically?
Lucy: As time went on at IBM while consulting, I felt like there wasn’t a ton of ownership in terms of the projects that I worked on.
So in the last couple of years, I also did work on internal IBM products. These were industry products we designed for airlines, such as mobile apps for flight attendants, for pilots, for aircraft technicians.
It meant really understanding the users: doing the research, interviewing them, getting to know them, and then creating and nourishing the product.
I really, really enjoyed that and thought “I need a bigger change. I should move onto an actual product company and see what that’s like,” so that’s why I’m here.
Simon: Years ago, I was doing design work in Quark Express and lots of photo montages and Photoshop. You’d only have one undo and no layers, you know, pretty old school.
And my boss then said to me, “Have you heard about this HTML stuff? I bet you one day, there’ll be money in that.” So I bought a book, I learned how to do HTML that way.
Then I was doing print design and web design side by side for several years. I’d be doing Photoshop, desktop publishing, designing and building emails, designing and building websites, project managing the backend doing producing the front end and designing. A kind of all encompassing role.
From there, I moved onto more web roles and when smartphones started appearing I was designing responsive websites with CSS 3, HTML 5, experimenting with jQuery, mobile and PhoneGap.
It was only actually when I got to ClearSchool that I worked on a native app, because it was mostly web apps and mobile apps before then.
But even though the tech has changed, I feel like the design principles are the same.
Relly: You’ve both had a wide range of experience which is so valuable when you’re looking to explore new product ideas, as you both do for our new business mission. What do you think makes a truly great piece of design?
Lucy: I do notice a lot of good app and product designs but the things that actually changed my life, I think, those come from really, really good design companies.
Dyson actually made me think about product design a lot more after I bought their vacuum. They’re a company that changed the way that we did ordinary things for such a long period of time. They came in and rethought cleaning as a chore. They focus on the human side, what they could do to make that an actual enjoyable experience and then build products round that. They actually made me feel like I want to vacuum every day! So after that, I started looking at products very differently.
Another company like that is Simple Human, which is like my basically my favourite trash bin — or what is it called here, a bin company? I never imagined that I would have admiration for a bin company.
There are loads of great designs out there but these are the product experiences that made a tangible impact on how I look at design.
Relly: Yeah, it’s like taking this kind of expected experience, this standard we’ve just put up with and going, ‘Actually, is there something better than that? Is this how it has to be?’
And I think that’s really relevant to our work at ClearScore. We’re always looking at how our users can have a better experience than the standard for the finance industry, which is a bright red number and a message saying ‘your credit is poor’. We reject that.
DriveScore, that Simon leads, is like that too, isn’t it? It takes the passive experience of being told how much your car insurance will be and turns it into an active experience, where our user can take control. By improving their driving with our iOS and Android apps, they can save money on their car insurance.
Simon, what about you, is there a design that’s really changed your life?
Simon: I’ve invested heavily in all the Hive stuff. Originally, I thought “I’ll invest 50 quid to see what it’s about,” and bought a starter kit but, yeah, we got really into it. I can sit there and see if the heating is on too high when I’m not in the house. And you know, maybe somebody turned it on so I can turn it off -
Relly: — Such a Dad move, getting a message to alert you that someone’s turned up the thermostat, so you can turn it down!
Simon: — I thought originally there were there was just the thermostat. But then I found there were the controllable light bulbs which was a game changer in our house because I really like lighting design.
There was a Japanese lighting design shop in Soho called SKK years ago and I used to go there and get these amazing lamps you can hang and angle in different directions, which we have in our house now.
We built our own routines for these hanging lights so you can go “Oh, it’s evening”. And it sets the lightbulbs above the fireplace to 10%, and turns on the little table lamp in the corner. “Okay, it’s time to work” and the right lights come up where I work.
Relly: I find it so interesting when design can move from utilitarian to delightful — to almost, like, full on hobby at that point, right? And then it brings you delight at a different level. It tangibly enhances your life.
Simon: Right. Suddenly, you can change the feel of the room with a word. You can actually change the mood, change the atmosphere, change the functionality of the space for whatever you want in such a simple way.
Relly: We’ve talked a bit about your start in design. I think there’s lots of stumbling blocks for people looking to get into design, and not knowing what might be their kind of niche. Do you have any advice for new digital designers who are trying to navigate all the different facets of our work?
Lucy: I think the most important part is finding out what you’re passionate about, and working out which bit of the process that is. And the way I think about it, because a lot of people still ask things like what’s the difference between UI, UX and all that stuff, is think of building a house.
When people ask you to custom design a house, you first need to understand the person or the family that’s gonna be living in the house and their situation. What kind of people are they, what kind of lifestyle they’re looking for. It’s not just, you know, the number of bedrooms that they need to fit the people. I tend to watch movies at home, I cook a lot. And so the understanding of the human part will allow you to then make better decisions on how to build a house. That’s the research, the discovery of the problem.
There will be a lot of resources around on other houses that are built that you can take inspiration and parts from, which is where design systems come in, they help you structure what you’re making.
From there you can design the architecture and make blueprints of the ideal house for those people moving in. That’s the user experience design.
And then you’re considering, what will the exterior interior of the house look like, or how do we set the right mood? How do you want your living room to feel and look like? And that’s a lot about UI, the UI copy.
So for me, like that’s how I would explain it to someone who hasn’t been in this industry long, and help them to like figure out where do they want to play.
Relly: Right, it’s like the system level, right down to the bespoke and you know, there’s different levels for different projects and also different designers feel comfortable and specialise in different areas within that as well.
It can take some time, I think, throughout your career to get that range of experience and get to learn your strengths. I’ve had a lot of friends who thought they were going to be very much UI designers but actually found the system stuff was actually where they did their best work and vice versa as well.
Lucy: Yeah, I really love interior design, I love being in a place where it makes me feel really amazing but I cannot do that. And that’s me with UI design. I love great UI but I don’t — I can’t do it from scratch on my own. So, it’s good for people to know where their strengths are. You can build on those.
And speaking of interior design, Simon, your lighting sounds super cool! I had the same thing set up in my last place — afternoon reading, or turning the lights out for bed. Are your family into it?
Simon: My wife isn’t so much, apart from that I’ve created a special bath mode for her. Instead of us installing bath dinner switch, we just turn off all the lights in the bathroom except for one over the bath, set at 5% and a soft hue. She’s quite happy with that when she can say ‘it’s bath time’ and it goes pink.
Relly: We’ve talked a lot about design, but let me ask a question about you. Simon, our UK ClearScore HQ is in Vauxhall, London. What’s your favourite place to visit in London?
Simon: I’ve been in London my entire life. East London is still great. It was my favourite place in London when I was at university. I loved to go to the music shops on Denmark street too. I played drums in a band and we used to play in all kinds of clubs and bars around Camden and Kentish town. These days it’s a members wine club, with very good food, opposite St James’s Palace.
Relly: And Lucy, you’ve joined us from Canada. Where have you enjoyed visiting so far?
Lucy: I actually really like Vauxhall farm. When I told someone that I was moving to Vauxhall, they said “Oh, there’s a little city farm there which you’ll love because it literally doesn’t feel like London when you go there,”
And it’s true, it’s a little bit of tranquillity away from the bustle of the city.
Relly: Thank you Lucy, Simon, for your time. I can’t wait to see what our new business mission is doing next!
Interview: March 2022.
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