Part 1: Paying for Music
This is part one of a six part series of transcripts from a conversation about art, copyright, ethics, and the future of the creative industries. Pearl is a visual artist, a music fan, and Millennial. Jeremy is a Generation X Internet activist, who works for the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). Whereas Pearl obtains most of her music by downloading it over BitTorrent, most of Jeremy’s digital music collection has come from iTunes and Google Play. Their conversation opened with this topic.
Pearl: So you don’t feel comfortable, deep down inside, downloading an album that you haven’t paid for?
Jeremy: Not really. But I sometimes do anyway.
Pearl: Why?
Jeremy: Why would I do it anyway? Probably because I didn’t value it enough, like if it’s going for ten dollars on Google Play and I think, “Well, I’m not that keen on this, I just want to have a listen to it,” maybe. But I don’t do that very frequently.
Pearl: Say the album blows you away—and this has happened to me—where I’ve been like “Whoa, I actually need to own this,” right? Then you actually go and buy it. But if it’s mediocre and just a hyped-up album, you don’t want to pay for that. And who’s to put a value on it except for you?
Jeremy: But now that I have Google Play Music, I don’t have that problem anymore because I can just sample stuff endlessly. It’s all taken care of in a monthly fee, and some of that will go to the artists.
Pearl: But it will always be on Google Play no matter what, you don’t have the MP3s.
Jeremy: Yeah, you have to maintain your subscription to listen to it.
Pearl: Don’t you find that frustrating?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Pearl: But you’re not going to do anything about it, right? They’re not even giving you a CD.
Jeremy: It’s basically like what you would get on BitTorrent, except you don’t get to keep it unless you keep renewing your subscription.
Pearl: And that’s what you’re paying for! I’m the complete opposite of you, then, because that to me is crazy!
Jeremy: Crazy? Why is that crazy?
Pearl: Because you’re not getting… it’s not even that it’s not tangible anymore, it’s like, it’s not even at all yours.
Jeremy: You’re just buying the experience, or renting the experience, of listening to it. So that’s worth money.
Pearl: No way. What if you just don’t want to use Google one day, because it has a monopoly over everything, and because you don’t want to be hooked up to these huge corporations all the time?
Jeremy: Well then you would lose access to your music.
Pearl: And you’ve been paying this whole time! What have you even been paying for?
Jeremy: Well, they’re moving people from being owners to renters. Because rental is a more reliable income stream, particularly for the older back catalog.
Pearl: That sounds kind of lame to me, don’t you think?
Jeremy: But that’s the only way the industry feels like they can compete with the expectation of free downloads. By offering a convenient service that people will pay for. And some of that money goes to the artists.
Pearl: I guess. But if I hear a new song on Pandora that I really, really like, I go and download it illegally.
Jeremy: Yeah, individual songs I would sometimes also download. I don’t know, I don’t really have a criterion, like if I really like it I would probably buy it. But if I just think I like it, I might download it. Mostly not, though, mostly I would buy it. Because it’s only like $1.69 or something. Is it $1.69 or 99c? I forget. I think it’s usually $1.69 for a song.
“I wouldn’t pay one cent for a digital download.”
Pearl: I wouldn’t pay one cent for a digital download.
Jeremy: Seriously? Not even knowing that it would help the artist?
Pearl: But I would pay $15 for a physical CD!
Jeremy: So do you feel this level of complete indifference to the rest of humanity, or only to artists? (laughs) I’m sure you don’t wish poor health upon the pharmacist, or even, even the garbage man. You do not wish that garbage man ill. But the artist, you would be happy to see him starving on the street, just… asking for crumbs? Beyoncé will be busking on the street tomorrow, saying “Please, give me some money! I need to feed my two new children! I need to feed my babies, I’m pregnant.”
Pearl: No! That’s not what I’m saying… I might not directly be giving Beyoncé money by downloading her album illegally.
Jeremy: But because you would buy a physical copy if it got to be worth ten dollars to you, that’s enough.
Pearl: Yeah. Yeah totally. I would pay fifteen dollars for CDs, I’ve paid twenty dollars for CDs that I really like.
Jeremy: OK, OK, cool. So, but what about the people who don’t buy CDs? And don’t go to concerts, and don’t do anything.
Pearl: It’s a personal decision. I don’t think we should be made to do anything. I might not directly be giving Beyoncé money, but all of her fans that don’t buy her albums still reblog all of her stuff, she still gets a shit ton of sponsorship and as we grow her popularity, she in turn gets paid no matter what.
Jeremy: OK. But if someone doesn’t do anything to support the artists and doesn’t go to tours and doesn’t…
Pearl: Even liking an Instagram post with her holding a Coke…
Jeremy: But at what point do you become a shitty person by never paying for music?
Pearl: You don’t, because at the end of the day she’s a millionaire and you’re not.
Jeremy: Okay but there are artists who literally can’t support their families. So to what extent does your lack of empathy extend to those guys? And by the way, I work for the EFF, so like, I’m not against pirates but I’m just saying, at what point do you become a shitty person for not caring what happens to artists relative to other people?
Pearl: I would rather—this is going to sound so fucked up—but I would rather, like if my friend was a musician and couldn’t pay their bills, and were selling CDs, I’d rather take them out to dinner than buy their CD if I didn’t want it, just so they could get paid for it. It’s just like, I don’t know any artists that are starving because I didn’t buy their CD, you know?
Jeremy: But these things scale, like that’s the same reason why I, for example, get a hybrid car. Not because I think that me buying a hybrid car is going to make any difference, but because I think that 250 million people buying a hybrid car would make a difference.
Pearl: So the Hieroglyphics are from Oakland, OK? I have albums [of theirs] that I have bought, and I have more albums that I haven’t bought. Do I feel bad because they’re like from Oakland, they’re super local, they’re like the best rappers from here. Like they’re not super rich, but they do very well for themselves. Do I feel bad? No, because I do show up to the concerts. I do show up to Hiero Day. I buy a T-shirt with their logo on it. You know, all my friends will buy their, like, secret collaboration. But like, a song?
Jeremy: Okay I understand that. I’m not quibbling with the fact that you support the artists. But I’m saying, how come you don’t judge someone who doesn’t support them in any way? I would judge them if they have the capacity to do so, I would judge them as being slightly shitty for not doing so at all.
Pearl: No, not necessarily. Again, I buy music. But if I’m buying music I want a circular piece of plastic with some information on it, because there’s something really like intangible about a download. What’s a download? I can delete it, I can download it again, I can lose it somewhere, I can spill coffee on my computer, what is a download anyway, you know? I don’t get the artwork, I don’t get the booklet. You know what I’m saying?
Jeremy: Yeah, but for a lot of people, none of that stuff matters. All that matters is the music.
Pearl: At that point it’s really up to you, and whether or not you want to [pay]. But I don’t think not ever paying for it is wrong. I totally get it. What, you’re not allowed to enjoy some art because you don’t make hella money? What the… you know?
Jeremy: Yeah but if you do make money, if you have the capacity to pay…
Pearl: I won’t judge you for it, as long as you’re happy. Do what you want to do.
Part 2 of this interview, titled The Ethics of Piracy, was released on January 16.
