“Conversations with Women” Series.
Bruna Gagliardi: “Kung Fu” Diplomat from Brazil
I meet Bruna after a lecture at the University of Hong Kong and we walk through a sea of students looking for a quiet place to sit and for me to interview her. After 10–15 minutes, and a look into a few coffee shops we realize a quiet spot is not an option, so we grab hot tea and settle in between the youth. I wonder what she will think of my interviewing skills as she was a journalist and documentary filmmaker herself. Today, she is a diplomat in Brazilian Foreign Service. Her career path has been full of curves and bends, and when I ask her if she thought as a kid of becoming a journalist or a diplomat, she answers, “an astronaut actually”. Later some kid on her street told her that astronauts have to have perfect vision, so she came up with another profession that would let her travel. “I figured, If I can’t go to all the planets I might as well go to all the countries”, she tells me. She picked up a few souvenirs along her travels as well. While posted in South Korea, she attempted to learn Korean (on top of the 5 languages she already speaks) but promptly switched to Taekwondo, as a better way to de-stress after work. She now holds a black belt in Taekwondo and is on track to get another one in Shaolin Kung Fu.
Conversations around equal pay and “glass ceiling” have been going on for some time now. You have worked in non-profit, public and private organizations. Did you at any point feel that as a woman you couldn’t achieve as much, or have the same opportunities as men?
In terms of pay?
In terms of pay but also opportunities for advancement.
During my studies, and while in media, I didn’t feel there was any difference or that I got a different deal. It was when I joined the government that I got the first culture shock. For the first time, I felt being a woman hindered my progress. When you look at legislation, all is well, but in practical terms, it was different to be a woman. For example, the kinds of jobs that my boss would give me were very different from the jobs that he would give to my male colleague. I would be the one booking the meeting rooms, arranging for the cocktail, while my male colleague was off negotiating deals. This never happened to me while working in the media or working at an NGO.
Do you ever find yourself subconsciously stereotyping? Let’s say there is someone working under you or assisting you, don’t you ever assign tasks based on their gender?
No, because I’m very conscious of it all the time. Since 2013 I’ve been working on human rights issues so it’s always on my agenda. I try deliberately not to fall prey to this kind of biases. I agree a lot of these biases are unconscious for both men and women. You have to be very self-critical, analyze your own behavior so that you’re not replicating some of these customs.
Be it the top management, or the boards, or in executive and legislative bodies, women are underrepresented. Often not above 15–20%. How would you rate the Brazilian Foreign Service?
We are not represented in equal terms. About 20% of diplomatic personnel are women. And for a while, during the 80s, when a woman diplomat married a man diplomat, she was not able to be posted in the same country as her husband. She would have to step aside or take leave to go with her husband. So historically there were some difficulties for women to be represented in the diplomatic core. This rule doesn’t exist anymore, but it created a historical gap. Also, it’s much harder for women to choose to enter the diplomatic service because if they get married, or if they have children, the husband has to follow them. So the job is somewhat incompatible with family life.
Is it possible for women to have it all? A successful career, family, a healthy lifestyle? Is this even a real scenario?
That’s the biggest myth of our age. It doesn’t matter if you are male or female, if you work in government or otherwise, work requires you to be ON all the time. A Victorian-era factory, producing all the time. You know what the word of the day is? Productivity. Let’s be more productive. Let’s meditate to be more productive. This creates enormous amounts of stress for both men and women. Except for women, everything else piles up. They are expected to want to have a family. And perfect family implies having kids. I don’t think all women should have kids. They should be comfortable with making a choice. In Brazil, you see the discrepancy, all these men going bald and growing their bellies — they don’t put any effort, they just put on their flip-flops. While women try to stay thin, do Botox and have perfect kids. All this pressure makes you live an unhealthy and unfulfilled life. So my personal take on this is — I know I cannot have it all, so I will have a few things, a few good things, and be happy with them.
Are women in Brazil more comfortable now to make those decisions? To say, I can’t have it all but I choose to have a few things and be happy with it.
No, it’s expected that you should have it all to be successful. A lot of women feel the pressure to have kids even though they struggle with the idea. And you know, at the end of the day, we all want to think “this is my decision” — but it’s very hard to go against the flow. If you say “I don’t want this”, people will say “oh, she’s not capable of it”, “she doesn’t care enough”, “she is selfish”.
You spoke earlier of this image of a man in flip-flops. A man can roll out of bed, put on jeans and still be taken seriously at a meeting. For a woman, she needs to dress a certain way or look a certain way. Is that changing at all? We now see celebrities like Alicia Keys choosing to go without makeup. But what is the case in the diplomatic world? Do you need to look a certain way to be taken seriously?
Yes, you have to dress formally, in a conservative manner, not too much makeup and not too little makeup, the right height of heels. And to a certain extent, I understand it in a diplomatic arena. You are dealing with different countries and nationalities. There is almost a need to try and look neutral. Now that I think of it, for men the demands are not the same. They’re basically wearing a uniform. It’s a suit. I remember an interesting story a while ago at an Australian news channel. There were a man and a woman, a team of TV presenters. The woman had to change her clothes during each broadcast, and there was always discussion about what she was wearing. While he wore the same suit for one year and no one noticed.
I remember Obama once said that about Hillary Clinton, even if they were doing similar jobs, as a woman she would have to wake up an hour earlier, to basically look as expected.
Do you feel women are assisting other women, helping them with mentorship, providing support systems?
No, unfortunately, I don’t see it happening. I don’t see the discussions turning to concrete measures. Maybe it’s some sort of a minority mentality operating? You almost have to fight for space.
What is your view on gender quotas?
I am in favor, especially in governmental institutions. In Brazil, for example, we have introduced quotas in many areas. In some public institutions like universities, we have quotas for Brazilians of African descent and for disabled people, but not for women. To me, this is strange, as discrimination against women is one of the oldest in the world. Guaranteeing reproductive rights in many countries has been a very long fight. We can compare how long women have been fighting to have complete control over their own bodies to the fight for gay marriage. In terms of history, the fight for gay rights is more recent. But they are progressing a lot faster in some countries. Earlier we were saying that men have these support mechanisms. In certain workplaces, I see that LGBT people support each other within the system. Why don’t women do that? I wish I had an answer.
Are there any women in Brazil that you look up to or you think are good role models?
I can’t think of anyone, which is quite sad.
I think it’s common everywhere. When I ask women this question, they struggle to answer. The most common answer is Margaret Thatcher.
Oh really? Oh boy.
I think that’s the only female leader that they can think of. I’m sure it’s not because they know much about her, or how she governed, but they know she was female, and she was a prime minister.
And she was famously known for a macho style of management. The Iron Lady. You know about your earlier question — when women get to these positions, they tend to behave like a man. They don’t see any other way of exercising power. They do what they think they are meant to do and don’t know any other ways of how it can be.
At the end of the day if you step back and look at everything, what inspires you to move forward? There are many barriers and hurdles to overcome. What is the biggest thing that inspires you?
It’s still the possibility of making a positive change. Improving something, contributing to a better world. On the one hand, I feel somewhat naïve saying this, but on the other hand, I feel — what’s the point of waking up every day if you are not trying to have a positive impact?
If you look back at all the things that you’ve done, successes and mistakes, what would your advice to future female leaders be?
Know that anything at all positive to be done takes a lot of time, a lot of work, and a lot of dedication. It’s not going to be in a click, like making a comment on Facebook. We have a lot of exposure to social media, sign petitions online, have political discussions online, but real change takes a lot of real-life work and patience.
